BS2 trim and FFB2 broken

[PeterP]

Nate...- yes you can ask...

But

... as much I like you and ED...

...this will cost you some...

My Girlfriend looks at me like I have to meet a doctor after she watched me yesterday (and the day before..):

-Starting DCS... -flying for 10 seconds - cancelling the flight again.

than editing FMoptions.lua again..(and many others more to see if that have a effect on the AP-channel) ...and than starting the simulation again...and so on the whole day.-without luck!

and BTW I said that I won't start BS2 again...

 

 

 

...will wait when she leaves the building and than I will see what I can do for you....

Edited November 7, 2011 by PeterP

[Mirtma]

Nate...- yes you can ask...

 

...will wait when she leaves the building and than I will see what I can do for you....

 

:megalol:

[Nate--IRL--]

Nate...- yes you can ask...

But

... as much I like you and ED...

...this will cost you some...

My Girlfriend looks at me like I have to meet a doctor after she watched me yesterday (and the day before..):

-Starting DCS... -flying for 10 seconds - cancelling the flight again.

than editing FMoptions.lua again..(and many others more to see if that have a effect on the AP-channel) ...and than starting the simulation again...and so on the whole day.-without luck!

and BTW I said that I won't start BS2 again...

 

 

 

...will wait when she leaves the building and than I will see what I can do for you....

 

Peter, please take things at your own leisure, there is absolutely no hurry. I think we have a pretty good handle on what is going on anyway.

 

Nate

[Speed]

OK from a quick watch of that track I think I spot the problem. The Autopilot 20% authority is being released when the trim button is released not when it is pressed. I'll have to confirm correct operation with Olgerd.

 

The fact that this doesn't happen with the FD only confirm in my mind that the autopilot authority is in play here.

 

However there was big debate before about trim methods. The Press, move, release (as used in Matthias's track) proves ineffective when dealing with changes to the flight regime (ie speeding up or slowing down) and will always lead to fighting the autopilot.

 

The method of move, press-depress every 2 seconds or so is more realistic, and if you watch the videos of real Ka-50s you'll see this. It accounts for changes to the flight regeime constantly, until the aircraft stabilises. The other method can not possibly do this.

 

I'll look into it a bit deeper tomorrow, when I get time.

 

Nate

 

Nate, what was the result of your inquiry? I use the press and hold trim-manuever-release-trim-when-done method, and I thought that was the correct method :cry: Anyway, I have in fact found the Shark MUCH harder to control post-patch. I'm wobbling all over the goddamn place. I thought I was just really rusty, or the flight model had been significantly tweaked, but come to think of it, not having the autopilot release 20% authority when the trim button is held exactly matches my problems. Even with trimmer button held down, I feel like I am attitude-locked, and when I try to change my attitude, I wobble. I am hopeless with rockets now, because I have to trim, recenter, trim, recenter, with every single maneuver, no matter how slight, so I am unable to make fine adjustments quickly- which is just about impossible- so instead, what really happens is I just wobble all over the place.

 

Let me point out the obvious: if the autopilot doesn't release 20% control authority when the trim is depressed, that means that the trimming process NEVER releases the 20% control authority of the autopilot.

 

Surely this is not the proper behavior?

 

Anyway, it was so bad that I tried out FD AP mode, something I had looked down with disdain on before. Wow. Holy s$#@, suddenly, I could control the helo without wobbling all over the place... I felt fully in control of the helo at last. I hadn't felt that way since... the last time I had booted up and flown Black Shark 1.

 

Anyway, when I get home, I'll try it out- hold down trim and definitively test if the control authority is released. Should be easy enough. But I wonder that it may be that it is only refusing to release authority from only a one or two channels.

 

I suppose, in the meantime, I could program my stick so that when the trimmer button is depressed, it enables the flight director, then on trimmer button release, it disables the flight director.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Speed

[PeterP]

Here are some videos -

both simulations run side by side in 1024x768 windowed and in very low settings - and both get the exact same DirectX commands.

Sorry for the sluggish FPS , but this is not very surprising when running two instances of DCS at the same time and capturing it.

 

Please pay only attention to the trimmer-click and what happens.

 

Please Don't comment on asynchrony in flight - no Flight-Model is written in stone! - we want only discuses the behaviour after releasing the trim-button.

 

And to help de-clutter this thread - don't post if you don't have a FFB joystick or no experience with it! (I tested with a non FFB and everything is as fine as it can be...)

This "bouncing" issue appears only if you have a FFB joystick.

 

And once again -my explanation for this problem:

 

As I know how hard it is to tell the different between wanted and unwanted control inputs in a Track I turned on the gauge-lights when I experience the pitch up that wasn't there in BS1.

 

And it is not there when I "blink" the trim repeatedly while changing the direction.

 

But from all I know about trimming in a helicopter this should also be possible when you press and hold trim + change direction and than release trim.

But every-time I do this I will have a pitch up.

And this is what I have done all the years in BS1 without the slightest problem and It was often told from testers/and RL-pilots that this is the right thing to do: Holding trim - Changing direction - than releasing Trim.

 

I think that the Trim logic has changed a bit:

BS1:

Hold down Trim = autopilot authority is released and you are able to move the cyclic freely as in FD mode.

Release Trim = autopilot authority is there again and readjusted to the the state the cyclic is while the trim has been released.

BS2:

Hold down Trim = autopilot authority is not released but you are able to move the cyclic freely as in FD mode.

Release Trim = the old autopilot authority is for a small time-period there again and than readjusted to the new state the cyclic is while the trim has been released. - this leads to a unwanted control.

 

 

And when you "blink" the trim the above described logic is still there but much less noticeable because the changes in the autopilot authority are much smaller.

 

But I don't think that this should be the thing you have to do...

So- my question is which files I have to tweak/overwrite to get the old FFB-trim behaviour back?

 

Right now I use a Autohotkey-script that Switches on the Flight-Director mode while I hold down the trim button.

-So I have almost the old flight characteristic of BS1 back when trimming and the pitch up isn't so strong.

But this can't be the solution in my point of view.

 

EDIT:

And BTW - As I told yesterday- I had guests during the night... and I have a really strong hang-over now...

- so please don't expect to see me flying in a aesthetic way in the attached track.

Just observe the stick-input and the behaviour of the helicopter when I turn on the gauge-lights to underline that this was a unwanted "pitch up" I noticed.

 

 

PS: 11-07-2011

 

Had more time to test this at the weekend(yes -I had to "test" instead of flying.. -sad but true..) :

 

I want to underline that this "pitch up" issue every-time you trim is not only annoying and can be compensated by just giving a little more pitch-down on the cyclic after you released the trim...

 

The Ka-50 will get absolutely uncontrollable with more trimming !

 

Let me explain:

When You often trim while you have the FFB stick in a state when you have a negative pitch (something what you usually have all time in a helicopter) - The Auto-pilot channel adds a little positive pitch to your "virtual" stick position when you trim. - So you add a little negative pitch to your real stick to compensate this - and steer where you want instead of going up.

 

When you do this more often you will end having your FFB stick holding full deflected witch negative pitch while the Virtual stick is in positive pitch...

 

So you have no more axis-travel left to compensate this discrepancy in your Real to the Virtual position. - and you will end up facing you nose to the sky while you hold your stick full deflected forward....!

 

 

I have no curves or what-else tweaked in my MS-FFB2.

 

All time I praised BS for the accurate simulation of a helicopter cyclic trim system .

This is one was always of the greatest key features in this sim - Simulating the FM accurately.

So it gets also the attention of RL-Pilots that only want to fly around - instead of shooting stuff..

 

But I can't hold this statement with BS2.

 

In short:

BS2 is not Flyable with a FFB joystick any more.

 

Please,please,please have a sharp look what changed between BS1 and BS2.

 

Until this bug exist I won't fly in BS2 any more. - this should not sound like a threat... - it's just the truth.

 

Track: http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=58412&d=1320479285

 

 

 

 

1.

Settings:

FFB ON

AP-Channels that are ON: Bank/Heading/Pitch

 

= bouncing when trim is released

 

2.

Settings:

FFB ON

AP-Channels that are ON: Bank/Heading/Pitch and Flight Director

 

= No bouncing when trim is released

 

3.

Settings:

FFB OFF

Central Position Trimmer Mode OFF

AP-Channels that are ON: Bank/Heading/Pitch

 

= No bouncing when trim is released

 

 

@ Nate

Please let me know if you need a "part-time tester" when Olgerd and you nailed the problem down.

 

and BTW :D

...., there is absolutely no hurry.

I see this different - I want to enjoy BS2 as quick as possible the same way I enjoy BS1... ;)

Edited November 8, 2011 by PeterP

[Mirtma]

Fine and sharp flying Viper. :thumbup: Unthincking "CPTM" made difference. Altho I'm still not happy with precision of trim. But that must be me. And I must do some more flying. :pilotfly:

 

Disclaimer at the outset: I am not saying that ya'all wrong and the issue does not exist: Just attempting to get to the bottom of this :)

 

Ran a quick test with non-FFB (Cougar Nxt) and am not experiencing any issues with 'CENTRAL POSITION TRIMMER MODE' unticked.

 

Now in order to investigate iro non-FFB flight-stick, I flew a quick distance from Batumi and back - track and mission attached (ignore flying fidelity - have splint on right wrist: Pay attention to trim inputs/attendant manoeuvring/attitude of helicopter):

 

 

[ATTACH]58464[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]58465[/ATTACH]

 

 

Would all non-FFB pilots kindly just watch, attempt to replicate and post tracks and explanations so we can narrow down the issue. As I said, I'm not experiencing the 'pitch-up' at all, unless intentionally induced to bleed speed. Not necssary even replicate - just a quick spin is all that's required.

[Nobody96]

I see this different - I want to enjoy BS2 as quick as possible the same way I enjoy BS1... ;)

 

Same here. I owe you already PeterP, for sneaking at your computer as soon as your gf left :thumbup:

 

so long

Mathias

[fangav]

ED, It might be worth while to add someone with a FFB stick to your testing squad. Like PeterP. :)

 

This might be a good fix while we wait for a patch.

 

I suppose, in the meantime, I could program my stick so that when the trimmer button is depressed, it enables the flight director, then on trimmer button release, it disables the flight director.

Edited November 7, 2011 by fangav
added more stuff

[159th_Viper]

Altho I'm still not happy with precision of trim. But that must be me.

 

Nope - I think that's the helicopter. It's inherently unstable and bent on killing it's pilot 99% of the time :D

[PeterP]

ED, It might be worth while to add someone with a FFB stick to your testing squad. Like PeterP. :)

 

This might be a good fix while we wait for a patch.

I suppose, in the meantime, I could program my stick so that when the trimmer button is depressed, it enables the flight director, then on trimmer button release, it disables the flight director.

 

Thanks for the suggestion- if it was pointed directly at me... ... it was offered some time ago to me - and I refused. (reason #1=lack of time, #2=I use this sim in my free time - and I don't want to distracted this by only looking for bugs )

 

About adding a script that enables the FD just before trim:

 

I did this already and the result is not working satisfying for me...

Here is the autohotkey script that I was using while testing - maybe someone else is finding a fix:

 

This .AHK code activates the FD-Channel 60miliseconds before you trim. - and releases the FD after trim is done . Optional I added the "Unchain rudder from trim" with "X"+"y" - read more about this here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=40624

#NoEnv  ; Recommended for performance and compatibility with future AutoHotkey releases.
#Warn  ; Recommended for catching common errors.
SendMode Input  ; Recommended for new scripts due to its superior speed and reliability.
SetWorkingDir %A_ScriptDir%  ; Ensures a consistent starting directory.


4Joy15:: ; This is my TRim Jostick button = Jostick ID #4 Button 15 -"4Joy15" change this to your trim button. 
SetKeyDelay, 60 
Sendevent {LCtrl Down}{a Down}{a Up}{LCtrl Up} ;this activates the FD before you trim    
   While GetKeyState("4Joy15","P") ; flowing will send "t" down for trim until the joy.button is released
{
       send {t down}
       sleep, 50
}
   KeyWait 4Joy15  ; Wait for the user to release the joystick button. - "4Joy15" change this to your trim button. 
    send {t up}
    Sendevent {LCtrl Down}{a Down}{a Up}{LCtrl Up} ; this deactivates the FD
sleep 10 
; Optional:  if you don't want this following "Unchains..." - just delete the following line 
Sendevent {y Down}{x Down}{y Up}{x Up} ; unchains the rudder from trim and brings the rudder in the physical position of my feet so you don't have to recentre your feet after each trim.    

return

Make sure your button you want to use for trim is unassigned in DCS !!!

Edited November 7, 2011 by PeterP

[Mirtma]

Nope - I think that's the helicopter. It's inherently unstable and bent on killing it's pilot 99% of the time :D

 

Like Sopwith Camel :music_whistling:

[Speed]

I just tested my autopilot system with the trimmer held down. I guess the perception of wobbliness is just crappy flying on my part? At least for heading hold everything is certainly fine- holding down the AP button does disable the 20% control authority. It looks like the other channels are fine too, though I will test further.

 

But probably, I'm just rusty... though I could swear... it really felt like SOMETHING changed with the flight model.

[Nate--IRL--]

I just tested my autopilot system with the trimmer held down. I guess the perception of wobbliness is just crappy flying on my part? At least for heading hold everything is certainly fine- holding down the AP button does disable the 20% control authority. It looks like the other channels are fine too, though I will test further.

 

But probably, I'm just rusty... though I could swear... it really felt like SOMETHING changed with the flight model.

 

Are your joystick curves the same?

 

EDIT:- Fantastic work Peter BTW.

 

upon further investigation it does not seem to be the related AP authority, it is another uncommanded input from somewhere

 

Nate

Edited November 7, 2011 by Nate--IRL--

[sonic]

But probably, I'm just rusty... though I could swear... it really felt like SOMETHING changed with the flight model.

 

I have that feeling too. When trimmed the autopilot seems more sensitive to the collective input: small collective inputs generate more attitude changes than in BS 1

 

I did not modify my curves are the default the same in BS1 and 2?

[astrospud]

I have read this thread with great interest, as I have noticed a difference in trimmer model from BS1.

I don't have FFB joystick (X52pro here), but I am seeing the same effect on my flying as others have posted.

Now I will be the first to admit that I am not using the trimmer as was designed for.

For me, in robust manoeuvre's, I hold down the trimmer until I extend away, then release and trim periodically. For me, holding down the trimmer during changes in attitude and direction helped, as it was markedly more controllable.

Like I said, it's not the most realistic of methods, but it worked for me.

Edited November 9, 2011 by astrospud

[PeterP]

 

EDIT:- Fantastic work Peter BTW.

 

upon further investigation it does not seem to be the related AP authority, it is another uncommanded input from somewhere

 

Nate

 

Thanks for investigating in this and giving us a hint that it is worked on this.

[average_pilot]

I hope it doesn't take 2 years and a payware update to have this fixed.

:mad:

My little black shark, all it needed was a fix for the in-cockpit sounds and new AI logic for the wingmans :cry:

[PeterP]

Just want to say that I couldn't resist to Fly BS2...

(even If I said I wont touch it any more ...It's so cool to sneak and pop up behind a ramp-starting A10 in multiplayer..:D) and I kind of get used to use the FD on all time .- but it isn't really the same and makes a stable "fands-free" flying really impossible...

 

I don't demand a update what's done so far in this case to eliminate this bug -

I just want to say:

 

Please don't forget Us - the small minority that wants the whole realism ...

...when releasing a Patch!

 

:)

 

Edit :

Please feel free to post your own "cute cat" if you agree with me.

(who could be cruel to a cute cat?!)

Edited November 11, 2011 by PeterP

[Nate--IRL--]

What I tend to do generally is when flying with the FD, get everything stable then hit trim and switch the FD off, for hands free flying on a long route leg.

 

Nate

[baksie]

Try to tape the sensor on the stick if you have a G940. Then you can release stick after trim if needed.

[Nobody96]

Try to tape the sensor on the stick if you have a G940. Then you can release stick after trim if needed.

 

That does not work, because its an bug in BS2 or else it wouldn't work in FD mode either.

 

@Nate, I hope you will keep us posted. Using the FD mode all the time really isn't a solution. You mentioned it yourself: sometimes you want to use the route ap.

 

so long

Mathias

[nen]

Same problem here. While trimming is working perfect in BS 1.02 in BS2 isn't. Everytime I hit and release the trimm the nose rises which is very bothering and frustrating. Imposible to be accurate on fligth.

Weird becuse I use the same profile/settings on both versions with my Logitech G940. (Of course I use FFB that's why I bought a FFB joystick)

I hope it will be fixed soon.

 

N

[LostOblivion]

I have also noticed this abrupt change of pitch when pressing the trim button.

[Cocowolf]

I have G940 and the same problem.

[Nobody96]

bumpybump?