Braking Distance Compared to Wingman

[GAJ52]

After a mission I normally give my Wingy an RTB command to stop him from getting in my way during lamding. Because of this I very often land before him, taxi to the parking stand, then watch him land.

 

I am always astounded how quicky he slows down compared to me. On touchdown I use full speedbrake, max footbrakes together with anti-skid selected. My touchdown speed is about 130, so why does he slow down significantly quicker than me ? I am sometimes still braking near the end of the runway after touching down at the correct point (tyre marks) but he can be at taxi speed at the first turnoff taxiway.

[Eddie]

After a mission I normally give my Wingy an RTB command to stop him from getting in my way during lamding. Because of this I very often land before him, taxi to the parking stand, then watch him land.

 

I am always astounded how quicky he slows down compared to me. On touchdown I use full speedbrake, max footbrakes together with anti-skid selected. My touchdown speed is about 130, so why does he slow down significantly quicker than me ? I am sometimes still braking near the end of the runway after touching down at the correct point (tyre marks) but he can be at taxi speed at the first turnoff taxiway.

 

Because he isn't using the same flight model as you. AI use a simplified flight model.

 

And FYI, you shouldn't be braking hard on landing. ;)

[bluepilot76]

Its a good point,

Maybe ED should fix the AI flight model so it looks realistic.

[Eddie]

Its a good point,

Maybe ED should fix the AI flight model so it looks realistic.

 

Have a 20Ghz CPU do you? ;)

[bluepilot76]

hmm no I dont think so, its a quadrophonic or something.

 

However I dont mean it should actually calculate all of the vortexes or anything like that, it could just be, wheels on runway, runway wet, take the third exit.

 

(TBH I dont really see the point of a lot of whats modelled, individual bullets and things going on out of sight somewhere between some AI. At least I think thats the sort of fidelity the DCS is at isnt it?, but really whats the point?)

 

Its like those philosophical statements; if a tree falls in the forest, does it really make any noise. Well yes probably, but do I care if I dont hear it? I would rather the processor was making the AI around me look vaguely believeable.

 

I Maiden are awesome arent they. Did you see Bruce was doing 1 hour long sim sessions in his own full motion 737 simulator, with him, for 666pounds! All sold out unfortunately...

[Torment]

Have a 20Ghz CPU do you? ;)

 

8 socket motherboard FTW :D

 

Joking aside, I've recently starting landing without applying the wheel brakes until around 80-90 kts and my stopping distance doesn't seem to suffer at all. It's hard for me to be sure but I couldn't tell much of a difference between max braking after the mains touch down vs braking after I've slowed down.

 

But I CAN almost stop in as short a distance as the wingman if I stall the jet on flare and put it down at the threshold...but it was a piss poor landing.

[GAJ52]

Because he isn't using the same flight model as you. AI use a simplified flight model.

 

OK thanks, I didn't know that :thumbup:

[Stretch]

I've heard of the simplified flight model (SFM), the advanced flight model in use in Lock On: Flaming Cliffs (AFM), and of course the flight model used by the DCS aircraft. Can someone explain the relative standings of each FM and which is used in which products?

[ALDEGA]

Have a 20Ghz CPU do you? ;)

Why are you so quick to ridicule his request? Some parameter tweaks could probably improve the AI-FM ... It's a genuine issue.

[ALDEGA]

Can someone explain the relative standings of each FM and which is used in which products?

Well, it seems the helicopters in DCS use a simplified version of AFM. AI airplanes are probably still using "SFM".

 

AI Ka-50s, like all other helicopters, use the sAFM (simplified AFM - yes, I think I just made that up). It is based on the same principles as the standard Ka-50 AFM, but calculates less of everything.

[kam]

Have a 20Ghz CPU do you? ;)

 

Some (hopefully most) of us will have multiple cores though ;)

[Inseckt]

I've heard of the simplified flight model (SFM), the advanced flight model in use in Lock On: Flaming Cliffs (AFM), and of course the flight model used by the DCS aircraft. Can someone explain the relative standings of each FM and which is used in which products?

 

Flyables:

 

Lock-on: SFM

 

Exept Su-25t: SAFM (Semi-advanced)

 

DCS: AFM (Ofcourse)

 

Ai:

 

I think AI uses SFM all the way in all titles, but don't quote me on that, it might be safm somwhere...

[159th_Viper]

Why are you so quick to ridicule his request? Some parameter tweaks could probably improve the AI-FM ... It's a genuine issue.

 

The question would be why? The cost of imbuing the AI with the AFM is known: A massive resource-hit.

 

What is the Reward?

 

Elimination of the 50 -100 metres stopping advantage the AI has upon landing?

 

Definitely not worth the price of admission :)

[bluepilot76]

No you dont give them AFM, somewhere there is an instruction: Stop in 500m. Change the 5 to an 8, ie 800m. Its simulation, it just needs to look real! Then again I know nothing of these computer tech things

[159th_Viper]

Then again I know nothing of these computer tech things

 

Exactly - it's just not that easy.

[ALDEGA]

The question would be why? The cost of imbuing the AI with the AFM is known: A massive resource-hit.

 

1. I didn't ask for the use of AFM or SAFM for AI aircraft. I mentioned "parameter tweaks" for "AI FM". Don't change my words.

Bluepilot76 understood what I said.

 

2. If simplified AFM (SAFM) were that detrimental to performance then why did ED include it for helicopters in DCS? Please read EvilBivol's post once more.

I wouldn't be surprised if SAFM were added in DCS for fixed wing aircraft in the future.

 

By the way, I could swear some of the (auto)replies in these forums are scripted. :D

[hog_driver111th]

What about just setting the turnoff point for the ai, in that they are not allowed to take the first turnoff? Also, (little off-topic) can we please somehow get the ai to actually turn off their engines when they land? There's a mission we run, where after the F-15s land and park, the engines never actually turn off but end up in a shutdown loop.

[159th_Viper]

1. I didn't ask for the use of AFM or SAFM for AI aircraft. I mentioned "parameter tweaks" for "AI FM". Don't change my words.

Bluepilot76 understood what I said.

 

2. If simplified AFM (SAFM) were that detrimental to performance then why did ED include it for helicopters in DCS? Please read EvilBivol's post once more.

I wouldn't be surprised if SAFM were added in DCS for fixed wing aircraft in the future.

 

By the way, I could swear some of the (auto)replies in these forums are scripted. :D

 

Yeah yeah - semantics..........I could just as easily have said SAFM. Does not detract from the discussion.

 

I'll ask again - Why?

 

Hey - I'm not being argumentative or difficult here. The majority of the time the Devs do not frequent the forums, particularly the english forums (with notable exceptions). Us testers pick up on idea/feature requests and then, where applicable, forward them to the Devs for consideration.

 

Take this topic for instance - you can be sure that I personally will not be prepared to raise this issue with a Dev solely as a result of the argument: 'Hey, the AI stops 100m shorter than me........:music_whistling: There are a lot more important things to deal with at present. That said, if there is a valid argument to be presented for the benefit of A.I. stopping distances to be improved which outweighs the time, effort and optimization required to rewrite the AI code and subsequent testing of said rewrite then by all means tell - I'm all ears.

[bluepilot76]

Mind I can see a potential problem where the runway gets clogged up with AI dutifully taxiing at 5mph all the way to the end of the runway. It might have to be a bit more complicated like,

 

Land, Decelerate to 50, untill 100m from last exit, decelerate to 15. Turn off.

 

It is a bit more complicated.

 

At my local military AB (not that I go there spotting or anything) the jets are always taking the last exit. I suppose Her Majesties RAF cannot quite afford to go through brake pads like the USAF does.

[Eddie]

I suppose Her Majesties RAF cannot quite afford to go through brake pads like the USAF does.

 

If you tried to stop a real jet the way most DCS players (or the AI) do in the sim you'd end up with at the very least hot brakes (a potentially serious ground emergency) or even a brake fire.

 

I'd love to see the above modelled in the sim, although much like having a realistic RWR/MWS I'm not sure we could put up with the 'bug' reports on the forums it'd cause.

[bluepilot76]

For me, (in the cheap seats) the brakes are either on or off anyway. Its all or nothing: "W" or not. Luckily all the runways are very long.

 

Seriously though we are here to suspend reality, to become absorbed by the simulation. It might seem trivial to some but its important to others, look how excited everyone is about wing flex in X-plane or FSX. I couldnt give two hoots because Im in the cockpit only. Never really do outside views. But for some thats the main thing and thats fine by me.

 

Some of the simple things in DCS let it down as far as Im concerned. Its really high quality in some places and really low in others. Perhaps the mods could not be too personally motivated when it comes to letting the ideas flow. Some companies would appreciate ideas and viewpoints. It helps improve their products and keeps them competitive. Its worth a lot.

[sobek]

Some companies would appreciate ideas and viewpoints. It helps improve their products and keeps them competitive. Its worth a lot.

 

That is not the point.

 

In the real world where resources are limited, you have to tend to the major shortcomings and deal with the small ones when time permits. If a pet feature of you doesn't cut it at a point in development, well, that sucks, but ED run a business and wanting to do too much for a given timeframe has killed more than one important dev studio.

[159th_Viper]

Perhaps the mods could not be too personally motivated when it comes to letting the ideas flow....

 

Be careful with such assumptions - could not be further from the truth ;)

 

Provide us with a substantive and qualitative argument and we'll put it to the Devs.

[BlueRidgeDx]

I think it's important for people involved in an endeavor to be open to criticism, and not be so protective of their product that they become blind to good ideas.

 

This is a good example of that.

 

The observation is that there is a drastic difference between AI and player aircraft performance. There are times when AI performs maneuvers that defy the laws of physics, and this obvious discontinuity affects the user's suspension of disbelief.

 

This is a perfectly valid observation, and frankly, I agree that it's an issue. I'm not sure why folks feel the need to trivialize the issue? I don't see any evidence of someone asking for a trivial "100m" tweak to braking distance...the difference in performance is on the order of thousands of feet. That's significant.

[bluepilot76]

No Assumption. You PERSONALLY will not let the idea flow. In your opinion its trivial. Several customers are saying it seems like a good idea. Don't belittle us. Without us there is no ED. Not the other way around.

 

Maybe it's not possible. The obvious fact to me is, that is has to stop in some distance. So why not program that distance to be realistic. We are not asking for something new, just that something should be more accurate.

 

Take this topic for instance - you can be sure that I personally will not be prepared to raise this issue with a Dev solely as a result of the argument: 'Hey, the AI stops 100m shorter than me........:music_whistling: There are a lot more important things to deal with at present.

Edited December 3, 2011 by bluepilot76