CBU 97 nothing

[chardly38]

I installed the 1.1.1.1. update and now my cbu 97s do nothing. They will drop, open up but i get no explosions. :cry:

[Lobo_63]

What is your release alt for the CBU's?

[chardly38]

not sure but before 1.1.1.1. update never had a problem. will check.

[ralfidude]

If you are CCIP the CBUs at a low altitude then you will get nothing. But drop those CBUs at at LEAST 3-4 thousand feet in CCRP mode and you should be golden.

[Crescendo]

I installed the 1.1.1.1. update and now my cbu 97s do nothing. They will drop, open up but i get no explosions. :cry:

 

As long as you're pickling from sufficient altitude (I would say at least 3000ft radar alt), CBU-97s will only do "nothing" when there are no targets to be sensed by the deployed skeets. In this case there will be no explosions and the skeets will simply fall harmlessly to the ground (by the looks of it, ED has not modelled the self-destruct feature).

 

When testing CBUs-97/105 make sure you set up some targets. Don't simply drop them on open ground.

[159th_Viper]

....by the looks of it, ED has not modelled the self-destruct feature....

 

IRL they deactivate or self-destruct. Less resource-intensive option taken iro modelling I'm assuming.

[Rainbowed]

In this case there will be no explosions and the skeets will simply fall harmlessly to the ground (by the looks of it, ED has not modelled the self-destruct feature).

 

Really hoped ED could mod the self-destruct of the CUBs. But I think its a little too much considering the complexity of its movement and its functions. I remember seeing someone else's post here on this with a video showing how the CBUs' skeets work. Cant find it now hmmmmm

[Revelation]

Really hoped ED could mod the self-destruct of the CUBs. But I think its a little too much considering the complexity of its movement and its functions. I remember seeing someone else's post here on this with a video showing how the CBUs' skeets work. Cant find it now hmmmmm

 

 

You know, I'm normally one for going all at as close to real-life as possible... This is one where it doesn't matter. If ED went through the process of simulating the self-destruct feature, I'd personnally be disappointed in the waste of resources.

[Rainbowed]

You know, I'm normally one for going all at as close to real-life as possible... This is one where it doesn't matter. If ED went through the process of simulating the self-destruct feature, I'd personnally be disappointed in the waste of resources.

Agree，Time and resources that could be invested on new DCS models:)

[chardly38]

dropped from 3000 and 6000 they do nothing. cbu 97 and 105s. Before i did the 1.1.1.1. update they worked. Now they dont. Im flying the quick mission.

[Crescendo]

dropped from 3000 and 6000 they do nothing. cbu 97 and 105s. Before i did the 1.1.1.1. update they worked. Now they dont. Im flying the quick mission.

 

Please post a track so we can see what's going on.

[Inseckt]

dropped from 3000 and 6000 they do nothing. cbu 97 and 105s. Before i did the 1.1.1.1. update they worked. Now they dont. Im flying the quick mission.

 

Check your HOF setting. They default to 1800 ft MSL, but if you try to drop them on targets that are above that altitude, you'll get this nothingness behavior... So make sure your HOF is a least 500 ft above the targets altitude:)

 

BTW; HOF can be edited through the inventories page on the DSMS...

[Eddie]

Check your HOF setting. They default to 1800 ft MSL, but if you try to drop them on targets that are above that altitude, you'll get this nothingness behavior... So make sure your HOF is a least 500 ft above the targets altitude:)

 

BTW; HOF can be edited through the inventories page on the DSMS...

 

Incorrect. HOF is ft AGL.

[chardly38]

here you go.

[Inseckt]

Incorrect. HOF is ft AGL.

 

hmm, would make sense, but I was certain I had previous issues with dropping CBU's on high terrain. But i guess it could be a misunderstanding on my behalf, in which case my next suspect would be sub munition drift after dispersion due to differing wind layers... When someone checks the track, I guess we'll know:)

[JB50]

I just watched the track and both times you dropped the CBU too early. I dont know why maybe you didnt set the spi properly or something, but the cbu should be flying open more above the targets than it was. Both time it opened too soon.

[Crescendo]

I just watched the track and both times you dropped the CBU too early. I dont know why maybe you didnt set the spi properly or something, but the cbu should be flying open more above the targets than it was. Both time it opened too soon.

 

I watched the track also, and yes, the CBU-97s are opening too early such that the skeets are unable to sense the targets.

 

I'm at work now, but when I get home in a few hours I'll replay and 'take control' of the track so I can try pickling a few myself. I'll report back with the results.

[MagnumHB]

Incorrect. HOF is ft AGL.

While that is the intent, I'm still not convinced that all of the bugs have been worked out yet. I think further testing and tweaking of the skeet implementation is due, as they still have problems engaging targets in mountainous terrain, not to mention the likelihood of the skeets hitting things like infantry while ignoring armor.

[Eddie]

.....as they still have problems engaging targets in mountainous terrain,......

 

Tweaks have been made in this area (not sure if they made it in to 1.1.1.1). But bare in mind, CBUs can have issues in mountainous terrain in reality as well. If you're dropping in an area with major variations in elevation, disable the radar fuse and just use the time fuse.

 

.....not to mention the likelihood of the skeets hitting things like infantry while ignoring armor.

 

This is a limitation of the sim engine sadly. Until infantry can be re-worked so they are treated as a seperate class from vehicles, such limitations will always exist.

[159th_Viper]

While that is the intent, I'm still not convinced that all of the bugs have been worked out yet. I think further testing and tweaking of the skeet implementation is due, as they still have problems engaging targets in mountainous terrain, not to mention the likelihood of the skeets hitting things like infantry while ignoring armor.

 

Have you a track per chance? Personally no problems here. Needs to be able to be replicated prior to any investigation being contemplated.

[Crescendo]

Well, as promised I did some testing. I don't have any tracks to provide because I must have played multiple scenarios about 20-30 different times.

 

First of all I took control of chardly38's track. chardly38 has edited the "Easy - East Georgia - Spring" quick start mission and changed the load-out to include 4xCBU-97. Here's what I found:

 

• All CBU-97s appeared to open too early and thus the BLU-108s always fell short. This occured at both low and high altitudes, at both low and high speeds, and using both CCIP (high angle roll-in) and CCRP (straight and level).
  
• This 'early opening' phenomenon can be somewhat mitgated by dropping from higher altitude (i.e. 6000ft+ AGL). The higher altitude allows for a more complete ballistic arc, such that the CBU-97 opens more 'on top' of the target. I was able to get a few kills on the initial two trucks this way, but the BLU-108s still fell quite short. Most of the time I was only able to kill one or none of the trucks, but I did kill both trucks on one occasion.
  
• The wind in the mission (210/17 according to LASTE) seems to exacerbate the problem. I tried entering the mutliple wind layers manually into the LASTE system, but this had no perceptable effect and the BLUs still fell short. In exasperation, I manually removed all weather and wind and the BLUs still fall short at all altitudes and speeds.
  

At this point I figured there must be something wrong with chardly38's "Easy - East Georgia - Spring" mission file, so I opened my own version of this mission and edited the loadout to include 4xCBU-97. My results were exactly the same as the above bullet points.

 

In light of this, I created a custom mission using the 'big X' target range near Kobuleti. I set up two trucks as targets and dropped single CBU-97s on them. Here's what I found:

 

• All CBU-97s opened directly above the targets and thus the BLU-108s were dispersed normally above the trucks, resulting in two kills every time. The above behaviour was repeatable from 3000ft AGL to 10000ft AGL at all speeds using CCIP and CCRP.
  
• I edited the Kobuleti mission to include the exact same winds as the "Easy - East Georgia - Spring" mission, but the CBU-97s still opened normally and I was still able to successfully destroy both targets (albeit with less skeets firing due to parachute drift).
  

With these results in mind, I decided to check the "FZU39", "FNC TIME", and "HOF" settings of the CBU-97s in both chardly38's mission and my Kobuleti mission. As expected, both were set to default values and were identical.

 

So, in conclusion, CBU-97s appear to open early when using the "Easy - East Georgia - Spring" mission, but open normally near the Kobuleti test range.

 

...as they still have problems engaging targets in mountainous terrain...

Tweaks have been made in this area (not sure if they made it in to 1.1.1.1). But bare in mind, CBUs can have issues in mountainous terrain in reality as well. If you're dropping in an area with major variations in elevation, disable the radar fuse and just use the time fuse.

 

For what it's worth, the "Easy - East Georgia - Spring" is set in elevated and mountainous terrain, but the actual ground around the first two trucks seems flat enough such that it shouldn't affect the radar altimeter.

[MagnumHB]

I've seen some odd things ranging from non-detection of targets (especially in high elevations), penetrators bouncing into space, (very) distant targets being hit while leaving close targets intact, target clumping/overkill, and the full bomb canister tumbling end over end after being dropped. The problem is that some of these bugs/behaviors do not seem to be consistently replicable.

 

Here are some tracks that I believe show inconsistent target detection and the mission they are based on. In the first, the center BMD is targeted, and 5 out of 7 targets are hit. However, in the second two, two different BMDs are targeted to compensate for the wind (submunitions drifting), and no targets are hit. I find it hard to believe that the skeet placement is so significantly different as to completely negate target detection.

 

As a side note, I believe these tracks also illustrate some sort of CCRP range cue jumping bug, which I thought had been resolved, but may have returned, at least for the CBU-105.

cbu105_breezy_hits.trk

cbu105_breezy_nohits.trk

cbu105_breezy_nohits2.trk

cbu_hightgtalt_test.miz

Edited February 6, 2012 by MagnumHB

[159th_Viper]

...So, in conclusion, CBU-97s appear to open early when using the "Easy - East Georgia - Spring" mission...

 

They do not open early - they open at the set HOF, ie 1800ft AGL: It is the altitude at release that is a factor. If released too low, the 97 does not have sufficient 'falling' time to complete a satisfactory ballistic trajectory onto the target.

 

It's clear from external view: Had the 97's dispenser skin not been severed, it would have impacted on target at the trajectory it was travelling at. The submunitions are then arrested mid-flight by the parachutes which bring the munitions up short. Had the 97 had more time to travel, it's ballistic trajectory would have brought it over the targets at the moment the skin was severed as opposed to the result when releasing at too low an altitude. This of course accords with your findings as in your above post, with the added comment illustrated by the tracks attached that a High-Altitude drop will completely mitigate the behaviour you experience, as illustrated in the following tracks:

 

Custom 97 (same geographical location as quick-start mission): 97 High Ground.trk

 

Quick-Start Mission: 97 Quick-Mission.rar

 

 

 

I find it hard to believe that the skeet placement is so significantly different as to completely negate target detection.

 

I downloaded your mission and flew it, targeting the two BMP's that your tracks illustrated no hits with. In the first BMP targeted, right-most BMP of centre, 6 out of 7 BMP's were destroyed. In the second instance of flying the mission and targeting the right-most of the front, 7 out of 7 BMP's were destroyed. What I did was lase the targets prior to setting the SPI so as to ensure the most accurate possible targeting coordinates, especially in terrain at altitude.

 

105 High Altitude: 105 High Altitude.trk

 

105 High Altitude #2: 105 High Altitude #2.trk

Edited February 6, 2012 by 159th_Viper

[MagnumHB]

What I did was lase the targets prior to setting the SPI so as to ensure the most accurate possible targeting coordinates, especially in terrain at altitude.

I'm sorry, but I don't find not lasing to be an adequate explanation for the behavior exhibited in my no-hit tracks. I don't think this stands up to reason as a confirmation of correct behavior as I understand it. In terms of horizontal accuracy, the slight accuracy bonus granted by lasing should be irrelevant for area weapons like the CBUs. As far as I can tell, the submunitions in my two no-hit tracks are in no better or worse overall horizontal position relative to the target group as a whole than the ones in the hit track.

 

This leaves vertical accuracy as the differentiating factor between lasing and non-lasing methods. This then suggests to me that perhaps there is a bug or simply a flawed implementation related to the ability of the skeets to detect targets at altitudes that don't conform to some sort of "expected" value relative to the burst/pop-up deployment height.

[Rotareneg]

This looks like the same problem I was having: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84124 . Releasing the bombs from a high altitude compensates for the problem because the trajectory is much closer to vertical when they reach the HOF.