A/A combat: No hope for me?? need urgent help

[Stratos]

I tried almost everything but my missiles tend to fail the target and theirs always kill me. I have a kill ratio of negative 1-5 in the Su-27 Flanker against any aircraft loaded with AIM-120C and sometimes Vs aircraft loaded with AIM-7, that's embarrasing I know but before pass definetively to the Su-25, will give another oportunity to my beloved Flanker If I get some advices about A/A combat.

Thank's for the help

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

AI F-15 is way too easy to defeat!

 

Human F-15 pilots use active radar missiles to shoot (multiple missiles) and run! And that is all to it! If you get too close you will get killed!

 

I can't wait to see the new patch! Maybe, just maybe, the active radar missiles will not be as bad as they are right now!

[TucksonSonny]

I tried almost everything but my missiles tend to fail the target and theirs always kill me. I have a kill ratio of negative 1-5 in the Su-27 Flanker against any aircraft loaded with AIM-120C and sometimes Vs aircraft loaded with AIM-7, that's embarrasing I know but before pass definetively to the Su-25, will give another oportunity to my beloved Flanker If I get some advices about A/A combat.

Thank's for the help

 

Su kill tip that works for me with FC 1.1:

-Come in with full AB 1500m higher on the target with ECM on

-Launch 2x ER (HOJ) just before burn through ECM (this is a guess)

-If you get ECM burn through (lock enemy on radar) 2x ER (2 sec between releases) and direct full brakes/throttle down/ECM off just after release

-Switch ET (these are your only 2 chances for a kill)

-Beam left or right and go low and chaff…

The technique for evading the 120’s is more difficult to explain in a couple of lines

(It is all about timing and it is not yet 100% working for me either :icon_wink ).

 

Unless you have the target on his six don’t expect that ER can kill.

The R77 fire and forget method with the Mig29S is easier for quick success with BVR online.

[suntrace1]

You watched tutorials right?

 

The best way to evade AIM120 is to barrel roll (spiral trajectory), your speed around 500 km/h +-, release plenty of chaff when missile gets close and while you're doing all that, don't lose lock on him!

 

I'd recommend R-27EM since it has longer range. I use it for ''spoiler'' - F-15 has to turn his nose away, which buys you time to get closer and fire your second missile, usually R-27ER & R-27ET together, just in case he gets cocky and trys to fight back. When fighting only one AI F-15, he doesn't even get a chance to fire one missile, even if he does, i'm more then 90% sure i'll evade it.

 

Oh and yes, play with your labels on, it will help you develop your SA.

[Prophet_169th]

The one thing I have learned recently:

 

Use lots of chaff. Previously I would only drop like 5 chaff. I have had MUCH better success dropping 10-15 in a row.

 

Also, with SARH learn to properly F-Pole, and always turn towards and up on the missle.

 

So pretty much, if going head on with bandit having him locked. Launch when you get LA, then crank either direction about 45deg and brake. Fire another ER at about 70% range. When you get the launch warning again siginifying 120 is pitbull, then dump lots chaff and crank towards missle and up about 15-20deg at full burn.

 

Of course I still die a lot =)

[192nd_Erdem]

your speed around 500 km/h +-

 

Come on dude,500km/h and trying a barrel roll for AIM-120 at the same time is suicide :)

 

My advice is,don't try barrel roll against radar guided missiles.If you really have to,your speed should be 800-1000kmh and you should pull 8-9G's at the same time.You'll likely get blackout,so if he's a AIM-120 spammer as most lobby flyers third one likely going to hit you :).It works really well for IR guided missiles(head on) though.

 

I'd recommend R-27EM since it has longer range.

 

Umm not really.Afaik it only has a better configuration for cruise missiles(radar etc.)Not an extended booster.So,when it says it has 100-150km range it's l calculated for a slow and low flying cruise missile.Other than that it has the same range with ER for a manuevering fighter.

[GGTharos]

Tha isn't even true - 100-150km is calculated for a very high altitude, high speed launch against a target at very high altitude, high speed.

 

Detection of cruise missiles will not happen at very long range if they have gone to their NOE flight segment, and even before that they don't fly -too- high (10000', 5000', depends on the flight plan)

[Pilotasso]

You watched tutorials right?

 

The best way to evade AIM120 is to barrel roll (spiral trajectory), your speed around 500 km/h +-, release plenty of chaff when missile gets close and while you're doing all that, don't lose lock on him!

 

I'd recommend R-27EM since it has longer range. I use it for ''spoiler'' - F-15 has to turn his nose away, which buys you time to get closer and fire your second missile, usually R-27ER & R-27ET together, just in case he gets cocky and trys to fight back. When fighting only one AI F-15, he doesn't even get a chance to fire one missile, even if he does, i'm more then 90% sure i'll evade it.

 

Oh and yes, play with your labels on, it will help you develop your SA.

 

Barrel roll? youll get killed more often in that attempt of manuever than the other advisable manuvers. I only do it when Im too close and too fast to turn 90º off (at least).

 

Spoiler? How often do you play online? just wondering. Becaus most people I know ( and Myself) always refrain from running away immidiatly in panic and always get a 120 off. The tables then will be inverted. you should record some of you losses against F-15 to see if this is the case.

[Pilotasso]

AI F-15 is way too easy to defeat!

 

Human F-15 pilots use active radar missiles to shoot (multiple missiles) and run! And that is all to it! If you get too close you will get killed!

 

I can't wait to see the new patch! Maybe, just maybe, the active radar missiles will not be as bad as they are right now!

 

well thats too bad. Because multi engagement capability is around for almost 30 years and its the way of the future. if you see your fav aircraft to loose out in AMRAAM voleys you should consider updating your tactics and even swich to modern hardware. ;)

[GGTharos]

Then don't post if you're in a very bad mood.

 

Stratos, the way to defeat missiles is to first udnerstand how and why they work - the guidance and basic kinematics. You can defeat the missile at basically three points:

 

Defeat the mothership's ability to lock onto to you to deny him the ability to launch the missile early on, or deny him the ability to guide once it is launched (break lock)

 

Defeat the missile's own guidance system via decoys (chaff etc)

 

Defeat the missile kinematically, ie, outfly it.

 

You need to know how the missile behaves in each phase of its flight, eg. powered, unpowered, inertial, homing.

 

You'll need to know what the radar notch is and why it works. And so on.

[suntrace1]

I see some comments on my ''barrel roll''.

 

I prefer it over snaking and f-pole since it bleads much more energy from missiles then other two manuvers and have been very, very sucessfull with it. I guess you do it much too fast, my turns take a while.

 

And yes, my tip is against AI pilots, i presume he's just gettin' familiar with different tactics off-line.

AI always launches at maximum range, when i fly mach 1+. After I launch, i bleed my speed off and do long barrel roles and keep my lock, while my missiles fly toward him. You can see how the AIM120 is struggling go get to me quit easily.

 

And ''dude'' , you should check out the difference between EM and ER in game before you comment, ''dude''.

[192nd_Erdem]

"Dude",read my post and GGTharos' comment on EM again please :)

 

I'm not talking negative about your barrel roll,but gave a better example.If you want to do barrel rolls with 500kmh,please DO do them when I'm online at lobby :)

[Stratos]

Well I tried and tried and tried again... again lol :D My performance have improved a lot!! I have now a 3-1 kills but positive!! Specially against F-15 and F-16, don't know why, but I always lost lock on the F-18C ( anyone know why?? ) I gain altitude and release my missiles, first a ER 4 or 5 seconds later another. normally the missiles fail ( don't know why cause I retain lock on the target ). after shot the missiles I slow down a lot but try to retain altitude ( have to try to turn yet ) and then release a R-27ET, normally one If not both of the targets are killed.

What I think that is very effective is wait that the AIM-120 is at 1.5-2km and then put my plane in vertical releaseing lots of flares, missiles often pass under my plane without killing me, but is hard to get the correct time. Please keep the tips coming I want to improve my performance a lot more!!

[Jester_159th]

Don't fire two ER's, followed by an ET.

 

Rather fire a single ER followed by an ET around 5 -10 seconds later. Reson being if you lose lock, you've only wasted one missile not two (assuming you don't reaquire lock straight away). Depending on range to target, the ET should continue to track with it being an IR seeker.

 

Also remember that the max range distance is calculated on a non manouvering target. There's a second mark further down the range scale. That shows the limit of the missiles no escape zone (ie where it should be able to hit a target that's maouvering quickly). The closer you are to that mark, the more chance you have of a kill.

 

As far as evasion goes I've had success with both F-Pole and barrelroll manouvers. But it takes timing to get the timing right.

[Stratos]

What is F-Pole?? My vertical maneuver?? Thank's for the missile tip will try it

[britgliderpilot]

What is F-Pole?? My vertical maneuver?? Thank's for the missile tip will try it

 

Read this:

 

http://www.papadoc.net/aunt_marys_guide_to_bvr.htm

 

 

 

(edit - while that link takes you through the basic procedure, it was written for Su27 Flanker, many, many years ago. Some details are no longer correct.

 

Two noticable ones - greater height does mean greater missile range (although allegedly not as pronounced as it should be), and the R27ET is no longer a BVR weapon.

 

The final problem is that that article only deals with SARH missiles. A Good Tip is to start your training against an F15 only equipped with the AIM-7 Sparrow . . . . it'll teach you the basics of F-Pole without having to worry about dodging the AMRAAM as well. It's good practice. )

[britgliderpilot]

What I think that is very effective is wait that the AIM-120 is at 1.5-2km and then put my plane in vertical releaseing lots of flares, missiles often pass under my plane without killing me, but is hard to get the correct time. Please keep the tips coming I want to improve my performance a lot more!!

 

One quick tip - flares will do absolutely nothing to fool an AIM-120. The AMRAAM is radar-guided, and flares provide a decoy for heat-seeking missiles.

 

Chaff is the right decoy type to use . . . .

 

 

And yes, the timing is tricky. The AMRAAM is not exactly designed to be easy to dodge . . . . . for pretty obvious reasons :p

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

well thats too bad.

 

Well, I just stated that F-15 AI is easy to defeat because it shoots 1 missile! And human F-15 pilots usually win because it shoots more then one missile!

 

In other words, human F-15 pilots uses F-15 advatage of having more active missiles! What is wrong with that statement?

 

F-15 is technologicaly more advanced then Su-27! End of story!

 

I don't know how active radar missiles work in real life and therefore I can not say if they are modeled corectly or not in Lock On.

[junae]

when i fly mach 1+. After I launch, i bleed my speed off and do long barrel roles and keep my lock, while my missiles fly toward him. You can see how the AIM120 is struggling go get to me quit easily.

 

 

Hi, when you start the barrel roll you put the incoming missile at what position: 12 or 3/9 o'clock? I'm asking because you said you don't break lock to your enemy.

 

 

thanks =)

[Guest ruggbutt]

Put the missile at 10 or 2.

[Stratos]

Well guys, when I say that I use flare, I want to say that I use "Q" key, chaffs and flares, like real life pilots I'm too busy at the mometn to search the correct decoy, lolI'm reading the guide now, well what will be better to turn?? If I put target to 9 or 3 always lost lock. And two questions:

 

1-Why the R27ET have a so short range??

 

2-Why the F/A-18C don't have active jamming but can always breack the lock without defensive maneuvers??

[britgliderpilot]

Well guys, when I say that I use flare, I want to say that I use "Q" key, chaffs and flares, like real life pilots I'm too busy at the mometn to search the correct decoy, lolI'm reading the guide now, well what will be better to turn?? If I put target to 9 or 3 always lost lock. And two questions:

 

1-Why the R27ET have a so short range??

 

2-Why the F/A-18C don't have active jamming but can always breack the lock without defensive maneuvers??

 

The R27ETs range is limited by the seeker. Its a heat-seeking version of the R27 missile, but it doesn't have an in-flight datalink . . . . as such, the missile needs to lock on to the target before you fire it.

 

You hence have a situation where the kinetic range of the missile is much greater than the range at which it can be fired.

 

This isn't entirely useless ( ;) ) - apparently the intended purpose of the R27ET was to chase down a fighter thats running away from the fight. It might only be ten kilometres away, but it might be going supersonic . . . . . if its moving at the same speed as you are, your radar can't get a lock (see pulse-doppler radar theory), obviously a normal dogfight missile can't chase it down - enter the R27ET.

 

It's good as a head-on missile as soon as you get a lock, too - the extra boost means it doesn't often run out of energy to maneuvre and kill a dodging fighter. Can still be spoofed by flares, though.

 

 

As for the Hornet . . . . . I don't know how they're breaking the lock. Sure they're not passing through the doppler notch or gimbal limits of your radar?

 

Doppler notch - fly at 90 degrees to the bad guy and you lose lock. It's a limitation of the radar, no way around it. Happens to you too.

 

Gimbal limits - your radar can only angle itself a certain way off the centreline of the aircraft.

This is why you're losing lock when flying away from target, obviously. The trick of the F-Pole is to fly AT the gimbal limit of your radar . . . . so you maintain the lock while not going towards your target very fast. Easiest to do with the MFD - try and maintain a 45 degree angle towards your enemy.

 

 

Feel free to enquire further :)

 

 

(edit - further note on countermeasures. There are many different views on chaff and flares in Lomac, not all of them positive . . . . . but most of us in the Russian jets use the separate countermeasures because we can in-game.

If you have a HOTAS stick, this gets easier - map a button your hand falls on naturally as chaff or flares.)

[Kevlon]

I've very rarly play against ai on single player, the experience i have is mostly from Human F15 payers, who tend to shoot and run taktic.

 

I basicly have a speed abouth 800-900 and break hard left/right and try and keep a lock on him. One thing you must not do is to break too hard, and start to bleed to much speed. If you bleed of too much , your dead.

 

One tactic that works against Mad dogging F 15 is avoide their first missile ( not easy ) , and keep lock on them, if you managed that, their sold, because now you got a solid lock on a running F 15, and one move from him, BANG! dead F15 .

[britgliderpilot]

I've very rarly play against ai on single player, the experience i have is mostly from Human F15 payers, who tend to shoot and run taktic.

 

I basicly have a speed abouth 800-900 and break hard left/right and try and keep a lock on him. One thing you must not do is to break too hard, and start to bleed to much speed. If you bleed of too much , your dead.

 

One tactic that works against Mad dogging F 15 is avoide their first missile ( not easy ) , and keep lock on them, if you managed that, their sold, because now you got a solid lock on a running F 15, and one move from him, BANG! dead F15 .

 

(prepares for 169th member to come and chuckle in a knowing voice before describing why that doesn't work.

 

hey, it happens with every other tactic . . . . . those guys get good with TWS and team tactics and stuff)

[S77th-GOYA]

I've very rarly play against ai on single player, the experience i have is mostly from Human F15 payers, who tend to shoot and run taktic.

 

I basicly have a speed abouth 800-900 and break hard left/right and try and keep a lock on him. One thing you must not do is to break too hard, and start to bleed to much speed. If you bleed of too much , your dead.

 

One tactic that works against Mad dogging F 15 is avoide their first missile ( not easy ) , and keep lock on them, if you managed that, their sold, because now you got a solid lock on a running F 15, and one move from him, BANG! dead F15 .

 

;)