J3Langford Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 *Please forgive if this has been posted* I have suffered countless rotor strikes with the various trim options. 1.) Chase the cyclic 'without' central position trim... (resultant instability + high IAS + over control = rotor strike) 2.) Cyclic does not always respond after trimming with central position option... (trying to gain control + high IAS + sudden regain of control = rotor strike) If I had to choose it would be the central trim method. I know there must be something I am missing from it's functionality. Tell me what I am doing wrong to loose cyclic and anti torque control... It can really be frustrating to fly for 30+ minutes and have the rotors mesh from this trim issue... :joystick:
PeterP Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 (edited) Sorry - can't comment on which "trimmer method " to use - I use a FFB controller. But the "sudden" rotor-clash during a stable flight happens usually caused by: too high rotor-pitch - and rudder not centred after trim. The later can be solved by using this script: How to unchain the rudder from trim - solution Please also read this: DCS: Black Shark and the Trimmer DCS Black Shark and the Autopilot: Part 1 of 2 DCS Black Shark and the Autopilot: Part 2 of 2 and while reading - open DCS windowed to try out newly learned things instantly. And welcome aboard! Edited April 3, 2012 by PeterP
ErichVon Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 (edited) *Please forgive if this has been posted* I have suffered countless rotor strikes with the various trim options. 1.) Chase the cyclic 'without' central position trim... (resultant instability + high IAS + over control = rotor strike) 2.) Cyclic does not always respond after trimming with central position option... (trying to gain control + high IAS + sudden regain of control = rotor strike) If I had to choose it would be the central trim method. I know there must be something I am missing from it's functionality. Tell me what I am doing wrong to loose cyclic and anti torque control... It can really be frustrating to fly for 30+ minutes and have the rotors mesh from this trim issue... :joystick: I quit using the newer, Central Trim thing, I unchecked it. I find learning how to use the Auto Pilot modes and the Auto Hover and the Collective Brake - Assign Attitude really has improved my flying. Also the Auto-Pilot Descent Mode of the collective is a nice feature. I just found out about the switch on the collective, the "R" key, (Engage / Disengage Route Mode) that will automatically take me to the next waypoint using the PVI-800 keypad. I mapped that in to a button. I always use Control + Enter to see what my inputs are doing, visually. You will get an "A" symbol in Route mode and an "H" symbol in Auto-Hover mode. Overhead also displays what is going on. Black Shark is better than Warthog in this respect. I bet I can input coordinators via the ABRIS / PVI-800 and it will automatically steer me there. And the proper use of how to trim: off trim button or key, center stick within .5 seconds---there are a couple "trainee" videos on that subject. What is a real killer, self-inflicted, is over-speeding the aircraft even in a flat cruise. That action is not too kind to the airframe. Used to be I was flying along and all of a sudden, for no reason to me, the helicopter just went into an uncontrollable right hand dive. But I still screw up, like over-reacting when a missile is coming at me and I dive for the ground too fast. Did I say? I am getting really fast at cold starting this thing, even in the dark! LOL! I can't wait until I can hide behind buildings and hills, pop up, fire, pop down. Edited April 3, 2012 by ErichVon
Yurgon Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 In a nutshell: With high IAS, don't pull too much collective and be very gentle on cyclic and rudder. EinsteinEP wrote a very understandable article over at SimHQ (I think he should soon start paying me for linking to it so often :music_whistling:). Besides, the maximum IAS gets lower the higher you fly. 250kph are pretty safe at sea level but may create rotor blade salad at 4000m ASL even without any cyclic or rudder input. You usually get the IAS MAX warning and a very annoying beeping sound along with it as soon as the chopper thinks you're going too fast. In that case, be extra careful to lower the speed and, if possible, lower the collective a fair bit. I have suffered countless rotor strikes with the various trim options. 1.) Chase the cyclic 'without' central position trim... (resultant instability + high IAS + over control = rotor strike) Like you already said, be very gentle and try not to over control the bird. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "chasing the cyclic", but it kinda sounds like something you shouldn't be doing. :-) We can give more specific tips if you upload a track (preferably a short one). 2.) Cyclic does not always respond after trimming with central position option... (trying to gain control + high IAS + sudden regain of control = rotor strike) If I had to choose it would be the central trim method. I know there must be something I am missing from it's functionality. Tell me what I am doing wrong to loose cyclic and anti torque control... With central position trimmer mode, you are required to center both cyclic and rudder before you regain control. In other words, once you hit the trim button, cyclic and rudder are completely locked until both have been returned to their center positions. The "size" or "zone" of the center position can be adjusted in some .lua to become larger. Or, like PeterP suggested, you could unchain the rudder from trim so only the cyclic needs to be centered. Personally, I fly without central position trimmer mode (Thrustmaster Cougar + Simpeds) and am very comfortable with that.
Vitesse2l Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 You can get well over the IAS warning limit without colliding rotors if you are carefull. As stated, dropping collective goes a long way. Isn't it usually over-application of right rudder that causes the collision? It's not something I've had happen for a very long time. MSFFB helps, I think.
159th_Viper Posted April 3, 2012 Posted April 3, 2012 Isn't it usually over-application of right rudder that causes the collision? No. You can floor the rudder, right or left. It's rather a multitude of factors that usually results in Rotor Intersection, inadequate trim being right up there as a main contributing factor. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'
J3Langford Posted April 3, 2012 Author Posted April 3, 2012 Fantastic information gentelmen, To further refine my original post let me add a few things: 1.) I am fully aware of the alarms the Ka-50 will sound with max IAS. They are hard to ignore. - thank you for the reminder never-the-less 2.) "Chasing the cyclic" implied that after trimming I had to very quickly move the cyclic to the neutral position after trimming or additional input would be registered. 3.) Usually after trimming with "central pos" I kick the anti-torque pedals to gain control over cyclic inputs (since the are frozen) I find the risk is less than slapping around the cyclic and then suddenly having tremendous inputs being made. I will certainly have to look more into the auto pilot and decent modes etc. Incidentally I had not due to the fact that I am currently a student helicopter pilot and the Robinson R22 I fly does not have ANYTHING remotely close. (sigh). So I was attempting to remain a purist so to speak to not "taint" my training in real life. Cheers.
Yurgon Posted April 4, 2012 Posted April 4, 2012 2.) "Chasing the cyclic" implied that after trimming I had to very quickly move the cyclic to the neutral position after trimming or additional input would be registered. Okay, I see. I think it's a matter of taste and a matter of training whether to use central position trimmer mode or not. 3.) Usually after trimming with "central pos" I kick the anti-torque pedals to gain control over cyclic inputs (since the are frozen) I find the risk is less than slapping around the cyclic and then suddenly having tremendous inputs being made. I think it boils down to personal preference. My feeling has always been that I'd rather have some unwanted input than being locked out of the controls. With time, it has almost become second nature to center stick and rudder right after trimming. I will certainly have to look more into the auto pilot and decent modes etc. Incidentally I had not due to the fact that I am currently a student helicopter pilot and the Robinson R22 I fly does not have ANYTHING remotely close. (sigh). So I was attempting to remain a purist so to speak to not "taint" my training in real life. From what I've read from real life pilots around the forums, the most "natural" feeling in Black Shark is to switch the stability augmentation channels off. Still, it's not really comparable to the Robinson because of the design differences between coaxial and traditional layouts. If you're into Black Shark for RL helicopter training, then that's probably the way to go. If you feel like busting some tanks, however, you should really have the chopper help you with the autopilot and auto hover features. To me, it feels about as rewarding to do some maneuvering without SAS as it does to get a cup of coffee in flight, knowing the Ka-50 is going to take me to the target area all on it's own. :-) Besides, your Warthog probably features more buttons and rotaries than the whole Robinson, doesn't it? All those fancy HOTAS thingies need to have some functions mapped just like in the real Shark. :-)
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