Dodge that missile!

[Vosxod]

I wanted to discuss missile dodging. Again :) And let’s not consider Split-S dodging – there is no magic. You shoot, you turn 180 degrees and you run.

What I want to discuss is REAL ;) dodging – i.e. when you continue pressing the bandit, or you are beaming or diving down…

 

1) Let’s say you are Su27 vs F15. Head on. And for better challenge you are 4km high and he is 7. One thing I noticed is offline I can always dodge his slammer no problem with this simple move: I keep flying straight at bandit. Once missile becomes active I turn left or right about 20-30 degrees and start shallow (about 5-10 degrees) dive. When missile signal light on RWR is about 9-8 o’clock I do high G pull-up. That’s it! Even without chaff. 100% success. And, check this out, missile effectiveness is on max! ;) LOL I can make a track if anyone is interested.

 

Doing the same online does not produce same great result. Quite opposite! In 70% cases I get killed. And I'm not talking about case when there were two of AIM120 coming at me, just one. Why is that? Is it because of network latency?

 

2) Another question: why missiles like AIM120 or R77 activate at different moments? What I mean is offline I usually see it becomes active and then I have good 5-6 seconds to react. Online there are some cases when I see it turned active and in 2 seconds (no more!) boom! I’m dead. And this is not maddog shot I’m talking about – TWS. I can assume that offline AI is using STT to guide slammer and so missile head is pointed to me with better precision at greater distance. So it acquires me earlier and becomes active.

 

3) Also why RWR signal strength just before it hits me is so different? Usually it’s full strength (all lights on Russian bird) and then it hits but sometimes it can even be only half way there and boom. I mean in any case when active missile is say 100 meters away from me, it’s active head radar power that my TWS receives has to be the same – right? Yes I understand that if direction it comes from is different then signal strength might be different! But in head on BVR shots – it’s same direction. How come?

 

4) And last thing I wanted to get everybody’s opinion on. Let’s say you decided to dodge incoming missile while still guiding your SAR missile. Is it better to do dodging maneuvers on corner speed or max speed you can get under circumstances? You can turn better at corner speed. But that’s good for dog fighting. Here you are trying to avoid supersonic bullet coming at you. So I’m not sure…

[Mustang]

sounds like missile effectiveness slider issue, most servers use the high setting, most likely reason why you're having a hard time

[Vosxod]

sounds like missile effectiveness slider issue, most servers use the high setting, most likely reason why you're having a hard time

Negative, the things I'm discussing have nothing to do with missile effect. Read my post more carefully...

[GGTharos]

1. Could be network latency (you get the warning a second later than you normally would, for example) or it could be the other guy's firing technique - he may have launched at you from closer than you expected for example - so the kinematic way of defeating the missile (which is exactly what you're doing) doesn't work so well.

 

2. They have their reasons ;) It has to do with scan patterns and whatnot, and there may also be some network latency involved as well as a missile that's guiding to you acquiring you much earlier than you think it did, but diving into your RWR coverage to intercept you - when it gets in there, and you get the warning, you may not have a lot of time to do anything about it. ECM can also affect this.

 

3. No idea. Show a track that reproduces this problem and maybe we can figure it out. It may be possible that the RWR is switching primary threats on you.

 

4. Above corner, but not too much - you need to be able to change position very quickly and you can only do this at corner speed. The added speed on top of it will help you preserve corner in your maneuvers. Although, like anything else, really, it depends ;) You won't be surviving anything if the other aircraft presses on you too, esp. since he can do much more radical evasion maneuvers when his missile goes active - while you have to maintain missile lock.

 

And if, within 20km, he breaks this lock even once you're probably in a lot of trouble because now he's the offensive fighter and you're purely defensive (so run, or get yoru buddies to help you - or if you have terrain, use it to regain some measure of advantage, or at least go neutral)

 

3.

[Force_Feedback]

One little OT question: why is it so hard to dodge missiles in F4 AF? The only way I can dodge a missile there is to run away from it. Even with old IR missiles (magic 1) flares seem to have no effect at all??? Am I doing something wrong or is this game just so screwed up that all missiles have a pk of 1?

[GGTharos]

The guidance is a little too perfect probably. No sim to this date simulates missiles too well, I think, in particular the guidance section. It'll be right in some respects, and over to under done in others.

[Vosxod]

Thanks for input GGTharos!

2. They have their reasons ;) It has to do with scan patterns and whatnot, and there may also be some network latency involved as well as a missile that's guiding to you acquiring you much earlier than you think it did, but diving into your RWR coverage to intercept you - when it gets in there, and you get the warning, you may not have a lot of time to do anything about it. ECM can also affect this.

I wonder how LO handles latency? I mean is it allways at client expence?

3. No idea. Show a track that reproduces this problem and maybe we can figure it out. It may be possible that the RWR is switching primary threats on you.

Will do. For starters I can present offline track where with long distance shot RWR shows all lights before impact and on closer distance it's little more than half way there...

[GGTharos]

Is it a very sudden change, and only at very short range? If so, the missile may have lost track of your aircraft but is on the way to hitting it ballistically. Or maybe you're picking up the fuze now ;)

 

As for latency: Latency is ALWAYS at the expense of the client; there arenever really way to 'handle' it, just ways to go around it. Eg. ED could construct the code so that when a missile begins homing control is tranferred from the client who is the shooter to the client who is the target. This would even prevent warpers from easily evading missiles.

 

However! Under no circumstances is this a simple solution, and there can be very many problems with it.

[trashcanman]

originally posted by Vosxod

Once missile becomes active I turn left or right about 20-30 degrees and start shallow (about 5-10 degrees) dive.

 

i'm no expert, far from it in fact, but the AI always launches at max range whereas online launches are mostly at a closer range. your manouvre will defeat a missile with low energy but online more agressive manouvres are needed. try increasing your turn away to 45 degrees and dive at 25 degrees to bleed more energy from the missile before making your turn in.

 

happy to be corrected by those who know better :)

[S77th-GOYA]

originally posted by Vosxod

 

 

i'm no expert, far from it in fact, but the AI always launches at max range whereas online launches are mostly at a closer range. your manouvre will defeat a missile with low energy but online more agressive manouvres are needed. try increasing your turn away to 45 degrees and dive at 25 degrees to bleed more energy from the missile before making your turn in.

 

happy to be corrected by those who know better :)

 

No correction needed. I think that hits the nail on the head. Engagements with AI and humans have little in common.

[Vosxod]

originally posted by Vosxod

 

 

i'm no expert, far from it in fact, but the AI always launches at max range whereas online launches are mostly at a closer range. your manouvre will defeat a missile with low energy but online more agressive manouvres are needed. try increasing your turn away to 45 degrees and dive at 25 degrees to bleed more energy from the missile before making your turn in.

 

happy to be corrected by those who know better :)

hmm, good point!

[Vosxod]

No correction needed. I think that hits the nail on the head. Engagements with AI and humans have little in common.

You are right and wrong. Yes engagement is different to the point missile is in the air. But once it is out there - it flies same way no matter who set if free... :)

[Vosxod]

Thanks for input GGTharos!

 

I wonder how LO handles latency? I mean is it allways at client expence?

 

Will do. For starters I can present offline track where with long distance shot RWR shows all lights before impact and on closer distance it's little more than half way there...

Damnit! I just tried 10 times - RWR allways goes to the max :) What the ....! Ok. I also tried now to set enemie MUCH closer - 15 km! And he is 3km higher. So now that flammer has much more energy and still I dodge it no problem...

[Prophet_169th]

They still launch at max range though.

 

Online I almost never launch at max range. If I do, it is just to put the guy on the defensive so I can close safer for a better shot.

[Vosxod]

They still launch at max range though.

 

Online I almost never launch at max range. If I do, it is just to put the guy on the defensive so I can close safer for a better shot.

Yes and as you can see in my latest post I force AI to launch at close range - 15 km. And still dodge withot any problem.

 

Yesterday online on S77 I tried to dodge with same manuever few times. Result - 50/50. In some cases I was able to avoid amraam however I applied MUCH harder stick on pull up and lots of chaff. It's obvious for me that online missiles have much bigger tolerance for guidance errors than offline. Online ARMs are much stronger...

[junae]

Will do. For starters I can present offline track where with long distance shot RWR shows all lights before impact and on closer distance it's little more than half way there...

 

 

Hi Vosxod, please if you have some tracks, teaching your techinque I'll be glad to get them (and try to learn, I'm having problems avoiding missiles... LOL).

 

 

Do you have a web site?

 

 

 

Thanks in advance :)

[Vosxod]

Hi Vosxod, please if you have some tracks, teaching your techinque I'll be glad to get them (and try to learn, I'm having problems avoiding missiles... LOL).

 

Do you have a web site?

 

Thanks in advance :)

 

Will do tonight...

[junae]

Will do tonight...

 

Wow, good camarade!!! :)

 

 

I'll be waiting for them!! LOL

[Kula66]

2) Another question: why missiles like AIM120 or R77 activate at different moments? What I mean is offline I usually see it becomes active and then I have good 5-6 seconds to react. Online there are some cases when I see it turned active and in 2 seconds (no more!) boom! I’m dead. And this is not maddog shot I’m talking about – TWS. I can assume that offline AI is using STT to guide slammer and so missile head is pointed to me with better precision at greater distance. So it acquires me earlier and becomes active.

 

This could be due to the limited azimuth angle covered by you RWR and the angle the missile approaches ... not sure what the figures on RWR angle are, but if a missile only enters this zone 2 secs before impact, thats all the warning you'll get.

 

I also get problems with being shot down by 77s and getting no warning ... I guess this could be similar.

[trashcanman]

i'm sure i read somewhere that the rwr works best in the same plane as the aircraft so a high to low or low to high shot would, with the increased energy of a shorter range launch, cause the minimal warning you get?

[Vosxod]

Wow, good camarade!!! :)

 

 

I'll be waiting for them!! LOL

Here you go. 2 slammers dodged, one long distance - without chaff, one short with series of chaff. Better to watch with externals (Ctrl+E) of course...

Vosxod Su27 vs F15.zip

[junae]

Thx Vosxod, I'm leaving job now, going home and will check your tracks...

 

Thanks again!!!

[junae]

Hi, one thing I forgot to ask: those tracks are for 1.1 or 1.02?

 

 

Thanks :)

[Vosxod]

1.1

[junae]

Vosxod, nice trick!

 

 

But I can't change for an outside view... did you disable it?

 

 

Anyway, congrats mate!!!