Red Tails Movie - Crazy ass cobra/upswing manouvre?!?!?

[159th_Viper]

 

Your choice whether you believe it, but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it considering the aircrafts strange handling characteristics!!!

 

Yes you can slip the P-51 quite easily. The problem is that what is being represented in that youtube vid is not a slip, forward or side, at all. Hell, it does not even vaguely resemble a slip on a bad day. It's more of an impromptu '360 degree doughnut in mid-air'. Definitely took a helluva lot of artistic licence with the filming there I would think :)

[ClearDark]

Yes you can slip the P-51 quite easily. The problem is that what is being represented in that youtube vid is not a slip, forward or side, at all. Hell, it does not even vaguely resemble a slip on a bad day. It's more of an impromptu '360 degree doughnut in mid-air'. Definitely took a helluva lot of artistic licence with the filming there I would think :)

 

It's more like Candaleria thought he was flying an Tie Fighter...

[ErichVon]

Have you seen that manouvre in one of the movie dogfights?

 

Performed first by a BF-109 and later by the Mustang pilot, like they have thrust vectoring? :music_whistling:

 

Is it even possible, or is it just eyecandy? :pilotfly:

 

Yeah, it is a classic, 109 specific maneuver. 109 in the lead, rope-a-dope the sucker following, at just about the time to stall, jam rudder hard the direction of the propeller spin, and come around most likely on the tail of the aircraft following you. Trick is, who stalls 1st? It is not an easy maneuver to accomplish done correctly. I saw almost the same thing done on an old Turner Classic Movie, but it was a WWI plane. The 109 can out climb a Mustang, unless the Mustang has a lot of reserve E.

 

I will try and find the info to the Aces High Wiki or wherever I saw it mentioned in their messages archive, as to the unbelievers.

 

I saw on TV, the F4 Phantom pilot that tried every trick in the book and his adversary did same. They were pretty much evenly matched, but the Chinese or Russian pilot made a mistake and lost. I know this guy taught at the "Top Gun" school afterwards and they started putting guns back on the jets. There has to be a video out there about this encounter.

 

I bet YouTube has it, too. Guys to Aces High do this 109 maneuver.

 

As to another post, here, later:

 

I have killed a few guys in here already in MP forcing them into an overshoot not firing a shot. They have to be really close. I get slow, real slow, and real fast. They try to follow and stall. I love hedgehopping when all other options are gone. You stall, you are dead. Trick is, do I survive, too? The good pilots do not fall for this trick. You can drop one notch of flaps at 400 mph! Add to that side slip or a crawl. Timing it is crucial.

 

I love the WWII combat of DCS. Give us more planes! This sim is the best I've flown.

 

A lot of sim pilots here are better than me, "Milo" and "ChicagoChad" being two.

 

My P-51 to DCS, unlike to Aces High, will snap roll to the right, even at high speed, given the certain situations I put it in. Almost like one of the Spits will do. My curve in the X-axis is set to 22, Deadzone is 5.

Edited May 12, 2012 by ErichVon

[blackbaron]

This maneuver CAN NOT BE DONE by any plane from the WW2 era. Period.

 

What worries me more is that Candaleria, who is a real WW2 pilot, sits in front of the camera and lies about his war stories. As if he has to glorify them to make him look better.

 

 

I don't care if you believe the man or not, but how can you be so positive he is lying? I'm guessing you have flown the P51 in combat and tried this maneuver? anyways, what I'm trying to say is you should have some good hard facts/proof that it is impossible before calling a veteran a liar

[ErichVon]

I don't care if you believe the man or not, but how can you be so positive he is lying? I'm guessing you have flown the P51 in combat and tried this maneuver? anyways, what I'm trying to say is you should have some good hard facts/proof that it is impossible before calling a veteran a liar

 

I have both of Chuck Yeager's books.

 

I love it when sim pilots talk bad about REAL combat pilots. Most of these sim pilots would not even get out of basic military flight school, I bet.

[ClearDark]

I don't care if you believe the man or not, but how can you be so positive he is lying? I'm guessing you have flown the P51 in combat and tried this maneuver? anyways, what I'm trying to say is you should have some good hard facts/proof that it is impossible before calling a veteran a liar

 

Physically speaking the P51 or any warplane from that era CANNOT DO THIS MANEUVER.

 

I don't need to fly a P-51 in the real life to know it. The physics in our world didn't change the slightest since that war. I don't need solid proof to call him out. It's been 70 years since he was there. Stories tend to add up "star dust" the more time goes by.

 

I don't deny Candaleria's war stories. I'm sure he shot that hotshot Me109. But not in a way he described it. But yea, climbing on someone's tail normally just doesn't give you more rating.

 

Besides, the series he was presenting it on (History Channel Dogfights) has so much made up shit in it it's painful to watch if you have the slightest understanding of how aircraft are flown.

 

 

There is no doubt Candaleria made that "maneuver" up.

Edited May 12, 2012 by ClearDark

[lobo]

This maneuver CAN NOT BE DONE by any plane from the WW2 era. Period.

 

What worries me more is that Candaleria, who is a real WW2 pilot, sits in front of the camera and lies about his war stories. As if he has to glorify them to make him look better.

 

I think there are two things. 1st there is Candaleria's description of his maneuver and 2nd there is the video recreation of the maneuver. The video recreation of the maneuver is Hollywood foolishness... His description of the maneuver sounds to me like a snap roll.

 

Snap roll: A family of rapid autorotational or "horizontal spins," not unlike spins. Rotation is induced by a rapid pitch input followed by rapid yaw input, thus stalling one wing further than the other. This imbalance in lift causes the high speed roll.

 

The snap roll was not a recommended maneuver in the Mustang.

 

"The aerodynamic characteristics of the P-51D are such that snap rolls cannot be satisfactorily performed. Attempting to snap roll the aircraft aggressively may result in a power spin."

 

Sounds to me like he did a partial or full snap roll and got away without spinning.

[leafer]

 

I saw on TV, the F4 Phantom pilot that tried every trick in the book and his adversary did same. They were pretty much evenly matched, but the Chinese or Russian pilot made a mistake and lost. I know this guy taught at the "Top Gun" school afterwards and they started putting guns back on the jets. There has to be a video out there about this encounter.

 

I bet YouTube has it, too.

 

You must be talking abut Randy 'Duke' Cunningham? Look him up, he is serving time in jail for fraud.

Edited May 12, 2012 by leafer

[blackbaron]

Physically speaking the P51 or any warplane from that era CANNOT DO THIS MANEUVER.

 

I don't need to fly a P-51 in the real life to know it. The physics in our world didn't change the slightest since that war. I don't need solid proof to call him out. It's been 70 years since he was there. Stories tend to add up "star dust" the more time goes by.

 

I don't deny Candaleria's war stories. I'm sure he shot that hotshot Me109. But not in a way he described it. But yea, climbing on someone's tail normally just doesn't give you more rating.

 

Besides, the series he was presenting it on (History Channel Dogfights) has so much made up shit in it it's painful to watch if you have the slightest understanding of how aircraft are flown.

 

 

There is no doubt Candaleria made that "maneuver" up.

 

listen, I agree that history channel regurgitates a lot of stuff that is quite questionable... and im sure the animation made for what he is describing is not spot on, but wow, idk i guess i just have more respect for the men that went overseas to serve for us.. I would not dare call one a liar, I have nothing but respect for these men

[TimmyD]

There is no doubt Candaleria made that "maneuver" up.

 

I personally don't think you have any right to say that!

 

I do not fully agree with the Discovery Channel documentaries as they seem to miss the British side of things completely like the BoB, which certainly deserves a mention and the Hurricane and Spitfire etc but you do not have the authority to comment on what this man did or did not do. :smartass:

 

With my last statement I am out of this topic cos I know where these threads lead to and I don't want any part of it.

[ErichVon]

 

Yeah, it is a classic, 109 specific maneuver. 109 in the lead, rope-a-dope the sucker following, at just about the time to stall, jam rudder hard the direction of the propeller spin, and come around most likely on the tail of the aircraft following you. Trick is, who stalls 1st? It is not an easy maneuver to accomplish done correctly. I saw almost the same thing done on an old Turner Classic Movie, but it was a WWI plane. The 109 can out climb a Mustang, unless the Mustang has a lot of reserve E.

 

I will try and find the info to the Aces High Wiki or wherever I saw it mentioned in their messages archive, as to the unbelievers.

 

I saw on TV, the F4 Phantom pilot that tried every trick in the book and his adversary did same. They were pretty much evenly matched, but the Chinese or Russian pilot made a mistake and lost. I know this guy taught at the "Top Gun" school afterwards and they started putting guns back on the jets. There has to be a video out there about this encounter.

 

I bet YouTube has it, too. Guys to Aces High do this 109 maneuver.

 

As to another post, here, later:

 

I have killed a few guys in here already in MP forcing them into an overshoot not firing a shot. They have to be really close. I get slow, real slow, and real fast. They try to follow and stall. I love hedgehopping when all other options are gone. You stall, you are dead. Trick is, do I survive, too? The good pilots do not fall for this trick. You can drop one notch of flaps at 400 mph! Add to that side slip or a crawl. Timing it is crucial.

 

I love the WWII combat of DCS. Give us more planes! This sim is the best I've flown.

 

A lot of sim pilots here are better than me, "Milo" and "ChicagoChad" being two.

 

My P-51 to DCS, unlike to Aces High, will snap roll to the right, even at high speed, given the certain situations I put it in. Almost like one of the Spits will do. My curve in the X-axis is set to 22, Deadzone is 5.

 

 

I found one thread, Reply#5:

===================

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,272726.0.html

 

Not specific to the Bf-109.

 

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,304680.0.html

 

Search terms: torque roll or torque initiated roll, or 109 stall turn; even maybe Hammerhead.

 

These are not the threads I read a year or two or three ago, but similar.

 

If you download the free Aces High install, you will also get the movie player they have to play the Aces High specific films mentioned or what DCS calls tracks.

 

That figures the films are too old, dead-links. Might try YouTube.

Edited May 12, 2012 by ErichVon

[ErichVon]

You must be talking abut Randy 'Duke' Cunningham? Look him up, he is serving time in jail for fraud.

 

Yes, that is the guy.

 

What he did later in life does not necessarily mean he was fraudulent in his younger days.

 

Wikipedia is not all that trustworthy as being dead reliable as accuracy of facts.

 

Maybe the NY Times archive or similar, is.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Cunningham

[ErichVon]

 

Great move. I doubt the accuracy of that video animating that move exactly as shown. But come on, that was a lucky shot.

 

Ditto, the guy from I think was from Louisiana, during WWII, doing a side slip in his Wildcat downing a Zero and getting The Medal of Honor for it.

 

I have tried similar moves in both sims and granted the overshoot does happen, I question the modeling of the sims' guns. DCS, though is still a WIP.

Edited May 12, 2012 by ErichVon

[ClearDark]

I think there are two things. 1st there is Candaleria's description of his maneuver and 2nd there is the video recreation of the maneuver. The video recreation of the maneuver is Hollywood foolishness... His description of the maneuver sounds to me like a snap roll.

 

Snap roll: A family of rapid autorotational or "horizontal spins," not unlike spins. Rotation is induced by a rapid pitch input followed by rapid yaw input, thus stalling one wing further than the other. This imbalance in lift causes the high speed roll.

 

The snap roll was not a recommended maneuver in the Mustang.

 

"The aerodynamic characteristics of the P-51D are such that snap rolls cannot be satisfactorily performed. Attempting to snap roll the aircraft aggressively may result in a power spin."

 

Sounds to me like he did a partial or full snap roll and got away without spinning.

 

 

I don't think they would of aired the episode if Candaleria didn't approve of the recreation of the maneuver in the video to begin with. And this is where the problem starts for me.

 

I did not say Candaleria is not a war hero. I have full respect for him. I have respect for anyone who went out and served their countries. And this is exactly my point. He didn't need to "make up" that insane move just to glorify his status as a WW2 pilot. He's done more than enough by just climbing the cockpit and setting out to fight.

 

I believe anything he says, except that insane maneuver he pulled. It's simply not possible. And I really think the HC Dogfights staff told him to glorify the story to make the show sell better. It's American after all.

 

I personally don't think you have any right to say that!

 

We live in a free world. I also served my country and still do. I can express my opinions the way I see fit.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[EtherealN]

Guys, discussing maneuvers is fine, but keep a respectful tone please.

[lobo]

I don't think they would of aired the episode if Candaleria didn't approve of the recreation of the maneuver in the video to begin with. .

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

I've got to completely disagree with you on this. A person is interviewed for a show and this somehow gives him the right to editorial control and oversight over the content of the program?

 

I don't see anything wrong with what he said.

[ClearDark]

I've got to completely disagree with you on this. A person is interviewed for a show and this somehow gives him the right to editorial control and oversight over the content of the program?

 

I don't see anything wrong with what he said.

 

Before they aired the show I believe they would show him how they recreated the scene to make sure the details are correct. They would need to take his input and correct it. There is no way they just get an interview and create a 3minute CGI based on his verbal description without having him say "Yep, that's how it was!"

 

On another episode, the "Desert Aces" telling the tales of Israeli mirage fighters in the Six Days war, they interviewed the former Israeli Air Force commander which blatantly lied in his interview to the show saying that because on the previous fighting day his commander "stole" a kill from him by telling him to hold fire, He sent both his flight lead and 2nd in command to a completely different bearing just so he could get both kills. That was proven to be a lie and what really happened is that the flight lead had low fuel and RTB'ed while his wingman stayed behind Ben David for the entire time they shot the Migs down...Of course both of the Mig's got shot down but that didn't stop them from telling a more heroic sounding story to the editors of Dogfights.

 

There are many more inconsistencies like that during the show that it's just a shame they took such a great topic to make a show of but fill the "boring" gaps with "exciting" to almost impossible stories just to glorify the case.

 

I said it before and say it again, I have full respect to all the pilots who participated in the show and those who fought wars. They don't need to "tweak" their stories to be more Hollywoodish to make them more of a heroes than they already are.

Edited May 12, 2012 by ClearDark

[EtherealN]

There is no way they just get an interview and create a 3minute CGI based on his verbal description without having him say "Yep, that's how it was!"

 

Actually, there is way. Lots of way.

 

Unfortunately, you appear to be a bit naïve about how documentaries like this are made. They'll have their own people doing different jobs, and lording over everything will be a set of various producers and random suits from the network that are there to make sure the end product becomes "Good TV". If making a completely accurate animation ends up being "Bad TV", they'll change it to one that is "Good TV", and the suits won't understand that they now totally changed everything because to them - they're just making TV!

[ClearDark]

Actually, there is way. Lots of way.

 

Unfortunately, you appear to be a bit naïve about how documentaries like this are made. They'll have their own people doing different jobs, and lording over everything will be a set of various producers and random suits from the network that are there to make sure the end product becomes "Good TV". If making a completely accurate animation ends up being "Bad TV", they'll change it to one that is "Good TV", and the suits won't understand that they now totally changed everything because to them - they're just making TV!

 

Read my previous post...I might be naive about making TV shows but documentaries don't have the aspect of "Bad TV" or "Good TV". They have to reflect reality as it happened. That's the difference between a documentary and a blockbuster.

Edited May 12, 2012 by ClearDark

[EtherealN]

Read my previous post...I might be naive about making TV shows but documentaries don't have the aspect of "Bad TV" or "Good TV". They have to reflect reality as it happened. That's the difference between a documentary and a blockbuster.

 

Which TV network was it that makes the program under discussion?

 

Right... ;)

[ErichVon]

Which TV network was it that makes the program under discussion?

 

Right... ;)

 

History Channel via cable TV couple years ago.

 

Depending on litigation issues you might find excerpts of the filmed episodes in YouTube or might be able to purchase it somewhere, maybe even to The History Channel.

 

As to exaggeration of the facts?

 

Case in point.

 

I was US Navy Seabees 1974 to 1982. I enlisted at age 22. We had one guy in my MCB that flunked out of BUDS and we had a Viet Nam SEAL that cracked on his 3rd tour doing mostly behind the lines RECON. Seabees are basically just like the Army Combat Engineers. We had ex-Marines, ex-SEALs, because we still trained light weapons defending what we were doing. We used Army training films. My winter battalion trained to the Army's Camp Drum in the winter, 10th Mountaineering Division. Kind of weird, actually.

 

The guy that flunked out of BUDS told me a lot of what The Discovery Channel showed of several shows showing the training process, also a couple years ago . Actually I thought he was full of BS because it was so fantastic. They did not show it on TV, but a lot of that wet surf stuff, was done in the buff. Hand washing their Greens fatigue uniform in a bucket and starching them for dress inspection every morning at muster. Final exam? A helicopter drops a pair of guys in their wet suits out to sea 20 miles, they have to swim back in---that is what this guy told me.

 

So, TV is not going to show the really gross stuff, or the secretive stuff, but they showed the Rangers puking during their advanced basic training.

 

I agree, it makes good TV and I think they did it to get guys to enlist.

[RoaringBones]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdCm5z2RpI8 from the man himself.

[ClearDark]

I'm watching this over and over again and I cringe every time I see that P-51 turns on a dime like this. It's simply not possible.

 

Richard's description doesn't let you build up an image in your head enough to say if the CGI reflects the maneuver 100%. I called him out because I'm definitely sure that he saw the episode before it was aired and he has given it a "Go" from his side. At least I'd like to believe that because it's called The "History" channel. History is never subjective. There's only one truth.

 

If by any chance I'm mistaken, I take my accusations back. My intentions were not to stir any flames or show any disrespect to anyone.

[Yurgon]

I might be naive about making TV shows but documentaries don't have the aspect of "Bad TV" or "Good TV". They have to reflect reality as it happened. That's the difference between a documentary and a blockbuster.

 

Bwahahahaha, that was hilarious! :-)

[EtherealN]

History Channel via cable TV couple years ago.

 

Depending on litigation issues you might find excerpts of the filmed episodes in YouTube or might be able to purchase it somewhere, maybe even to The History Channel.

 

It was a rethorical question. I know it's History Channel. That is my point.

 

You do not go to the History Channel for factual accuracy. Sadly those days are gone. Nowadays you go there for "reality" shows about roughneck loggers, various UFO crap etcetera. They're not in this for accuracy, they, like most other TV stations, are here to offer entertainment for old Joe Regular.

 

It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is.