Label OFF...why?!?!?

[D-Scythe]

oh- I don't dispute the lack of resolution or ED's limited ability to make aircraft appear at certain distance. This is about doing the best we can with what we have. I choose to fly as close as possible to the real thing- using the tools provided. A dot floating around the sky at a distance that would not otherwise show an aircraft is silly. The idea is that an aircraft will get somewhat larger as you close. It may not be perfect here, but still real aircraft dont show up as a blue or red "." or "^" in the sky.

 

But they do show up as black dots, no?

 

And maybe not everyone has the money to buy a TrackIR 3 along with some insane HOTAS/joystick setup. So in their case, labels *may* be doing the best with what they have, using the tools provided.

 

And you're saying that labels are *still* unrealistic?

 

As you said you have to *look* around to spot things even with labels on, that's quite true. But you ignore the fact that labels (in their default setting) are either bright blue or bright red. They stand out from their surroundings. I've never seen a fighter camo scheme designed to do that in modern times. In this respect labels ARE totally unrealistic.

 

I don't think I forgot anything. Let me clarify: I meant custom, re-formatted labels, where they are not bright blue/red, or whatever.

[S77th-konkussion]

Very informative post. So vastly informative and on topic.

 

 

Tell you what then, bro. You leave your labels on, as you obviously always have- and I won't. You teach that the instruments are really just there for looks, and that you don't need em. Hell- just shoot at the dot, right? I will teach how to use the plane as it was intended. In case you missed it- I said labels are just dandy for a brand new pilot to get acclimated with the huge tasks before him.

[D-Scythe]

Tell you what then, bro. You leave your labels on, as you obviously always have- and I won't. You teach that the instruments are really just there for looks, and that you don't need em. Hell- just shoot at the dot, right? I will teach how to use the plane as it was intended. In case you missed it- I said labels are just dandy for a brand new pilot to get acclimated with the huge tasks before him.

 

...And in case you missed it, "bro," the whole basis of my argument was people play what they want to play. Fine, you try and be all "realistic," no labels and all, but let others who are "less realistic" than you are shoot at the dot, okay? :rolleyes:

[S77th-RYKE]

...which is why you have all your labels set as periods (".") and of one colour so you cannot distinguish whether it is friendly or not ;)

 

This effectively eliminates EVERY reason you stated against labels.

first of all I don't use labels , so if by "you" you meant "I" wich would be in fact you , you should have said "I". ;)

 

OK so if someone would go through the trouble of making the label so minuscule and colorless why use them in the first place ? There is a plane there !! You will get a big rush when you discover it without labels. and since labels are off there is a big chance that guy didn't see you yet !! cool , heart pounding, move in for the lock , take the shot :) HE FEELS THE LOCK, now he sees you (on his RWR not by magic labels) he turns , locks you , your missile reaches him and he goes all fire and smoke .

 

That's what is fun in my book :)

 

...Really, so chances are the pilot (who probably is trained/practiced picking objects out with his sight) will not see it? Hmm, how would you know? You a fighter pilot?

 

Yes I am a LOMAC fighter pilot and no, I don't know any real fighter jock , and frankly , even if I admire their courage and dedication , and value their real life tactics,we are talking about a sim, a game , I don't know why you insist about talking about real life pilots who enjoy labels . It's irrelevant.

 

 

...Yes, it does. There is really not one showstopping reason that says labels are unrealistic outright, or that labels "prevent" the use of some "realistic" tactics.

 

well there is one and only one reason... it's a show stopper too lol

you look outside your canopy and see a LABEL !! lmao

 

that's why you don't see labels online at all , it's totally unrealistic, arcadish and prevents the use of realistic tactics...

 

but hey if you or people want to use them it's fine with me ...

 

Konny is right still lol

[DayGlow]

all my labels are set to 5km with a green ^. Right now I'm trying to decide if 5km is right or 10km.

 

blends into the ground if I don't look hard for them, but at the same time increases the visibility of dots to a point that is more realistic. Mig Alley had a nice 'glint' for far off objects that would do well in a modern sim.

 

A great example of what visibility is from the latest action in the gulf. A British unit was upset because an A-10 didn't see the union jack on the back of a Warrior. Now I imagine it would be very hard to see in real life, but what chance would we have in LOMAC at all? Human visual accuity is so much more than we can ever get in a sim.

[DayGlow]

 

that's why you don't see labels online at all , it's totally unrealistic, arcadish and prevents the use of realistic tactics...

 

 

But the visual accuity within the sim is totally unrealistic and prevents the use of realistic tactics.

 

The combination of zero depth perseption and limited FOV with limited resolution of a computer monitor doesn't make it 'hardcore' It's a limitation. It adds zero 'realism' to the fight.

 

So really labels or no labels are both unrealistic.

[D-Scythe]

Yes I am a LOMAC fighter pilot and no, I don't know any real fighter jock , and frankly , even if I admire their courage and dedication , and value their real life tactics,we are talking about a sim, a game , I don't know why you insist about talking about real life pilots who enjoy labels . It's irrelevant.

 

And that is proof that I am wasting my time. "I don't know why you insist about talking about real life pilots who enjoy labels . It's irrelevant." If suggestions/opinions from a REAL fighter pilot is irrelevant when it comes to REALism (which, in the likely case you missed it, is the topic of this entire thread), then what exactly is your definition of realism?

 

Furthermore, if you want to stop looking like a wannabe fighter pilot, you should stop saying "realistic tactics" - those are *classified*, in case you didn't know.

 

And yes, I do use labels sometimes when I'm testing out single-player mission/campaigns...although I don't know why that factors into this topic? Would you or konkussion care to explain?

[S77th-RYKE]

I agree that the "scalability" of labels is practical to accomodate different customers expectations.

 

If it makes more people enjoy lomac and buy and support the product we all love it's more than cool .

 

BUT , I urge you people to turn those labels off and come fly online where you will experience something wonderfull against real life virtual pilots :) or with others in a coop against the evil ED AI :)

 

C Ya up there

[S77th-konkussion]

 

Furthermore, if you want to stop looking like a wannabe fighter pilot, you should stop saying "realistic tactics" - those are *classified*, in case you didn't know.

 

LOL.. yeah there is no information whatsoever anywhere about how 1 pilot engages another.

 

OK Anyone who knows the meaning of the terms "beaming, NOE, IRST, leading, & TWS, please line up to the left. I'm very sorry but we have to kill you.

[S77th-RYKE]

ohh and D-Scythe , better forget it buddy , you are the one missing the point, I don't even know what your talking about ==quote; "and that is the proof" lol man come on

 

and I don't want to be a real fighter pilot I want to be a sim pilot , I think realism freaks are interesting to read in forums but what really matters is the people that fly the sim as it stands now, that's our reality , that's what we all have to contend with, bugs , realism or not .

 

We understand the sim as best we can and use it as it stands to prevail in a simulated engagement.

 

Everyone suffers from the same handicap of having the sim not up to reality visually, so what ? We fly we fight and we have fun .

 

Just saying it's in my opinion that it is more fun without labels, more realistic, and more rewarding.

 

But it's fine if people want to use em , it's a game enjoy it the way you want but don't come saying that realistic tactics are doable with them on lol

[D-Scythe]

LOL.. yeah there is no information whatsoever anywhere about how 1 pilot engages another.

 

OK Anyone who knows the meaning of the terms "beaming, NOE, IRST, leading, & TWS, please line up to the left. I'm very sorry but we have to kill you.

 

So how do labels hurt these "realistic" 1 vs. 1 tactics if you already know where the bandit is? ;)

 

You should stop trying to make me look stupid, and watch what you post instead :P

[S77th-RYKE]

So how do labels hurt these "realistic" 1 vs. 1 tactics if you already know where the bandit is? ;)

 

You should stop trying to make me look stupid, and watch what you post instead :P

 

You are not making any sense at all here buddy

[S77th-GOYA]

When I started flying the A-10 I used labels. I turned them off and had a very hard time finding targets. As I kept at it, it became easier. Now I feel pretty confident about seeing a ground target if he's in the area unless he's in the trees. They take some hard searching. As it seems like it should be. And I'm better at telling whether the target has already been killed. I do wish that the smoke coming from a hit target would last a little longer as it seems unrealistically short.

 

If you think it has to do with having a fancy setup you're wrong. I've never used a TrackIR and until fairly recently I didn't have anything on my joystick to change views. I used the keyboard.

 

In my experience, labels are a crutch that holds back one's search skills. Ride in a wheelchair from birth and your legs will be useless.

[Weta43]

I use labels most of the time set like this (this is the third time I've pasted these in here today!):

 

AirFormat = {}

AirFormat[750] = ""

AirFormat[6500] = "%N"

AirFormat[15000] = "-'-"

AirFormat[22000] = "'"

AirFormat[32000] = "."

 

WeaponFormat = {}

WeaponFormat[500] = ""

WeaponFormat[3000] = "%D"

WeaponFormat[9000] = "%-"

WeaponFormat[12000] = "'"

 

ColorAliesSide = {125, 0, 125}

ColorEnemiesSide = {125, 0, 125}

 

I'm gradually winding the distances & visibility of the marker down, but I had a think about how far away I could see things ( went for a drive away from the local airport till I couldn't see the planes anymore, worked out how far away I could see a 40cm post that I knew was there ) & tried to set the labels to reflect that.

Really at 6 or 7 km I have a fair chance of telling what kind of plane it is. In LO I don't without some additional information from labels.

From these posts though it seems to me that for a number of people it's less about what is more or less realistic & more about some sort of p*ssing contest...

"What - you play with labels on! ya girl..."

Playing with modified labels & a minihud introduces things that aren't there in reality - that's true. But they replace things that are there in reality & are missing from the game - "body sense" being able to feel the forces acting on you, & the additional SA gained by having real eyes. Both for their superior perception/resolution & the field of view they give.

No labels may make the game more fun/harder and may not remind you so much that you're just playing a game, but it's no more "realistic".

[Weta43]

GOYA

 

"In my experience, labels are a crutch that holds back one's search skills. Ride in a wheelchair from birth and your legs will be useless."

 

I know - All the real men fly with no labels

 

first - It's a game. Unrealistic in everything it trys to represent.

Playing with labels off compared to modified labels you're maybe a little bit closer to reality while the plane is 7km - 25km off but less close to reality while it's >25km & <7km.

 

Second: Yes there are all the instruments to help the pilot find the enemy, but the lessons learnt in Vietnam & put into practice in fighter design in all planes since then is that one of the most important sensors on the plane is the pilot & his eyes - hence the move to increased visibility for pilots & glass canopies.

LO does not allow the same use to be made af the pilot's sensors as reality dictates.

Limited labels redress this.

 

Secondly: Things like physical the size of the monitor & the resolution they play at effect the ability of players to pick out targets. Limited labels evens this out.

[S77th-RYKE]

Weta43

 

haven't you read the whole post , your comments are kinda redondant at this point

 

and by the way in this sim you can fly with labels on.. it is ok it is not girly ;)

 

but it's something you will think back at after more experience flying, and say wow , these guys were right , it's way better without labels

 

just promise me that you will tell the next noob the same in 6 months , i'm getting tired ;)

[Cosmonaut]

I'm sure that players using labels have the same ambition to achieve realism as those of us that choose not to use labels. Its just matter of preference, hopefully in the next sim ED produces they will get a view distance that closely matches the real thing until then use what ever suits your idea of realism. For me that’s label off .. I like flying around cautiously sometimes retreating a little until I have a clear view of the threat and then moving in. I have found with labels I loose that feeling of the hunt but others may find the same level of immersion with labels turned on but for me I just turn them off.

[Weta43]

Ryke,

For when you wake up...

I've been flying FC since May, & LO for long enough before that to have spent some months reading before first posting here in Feb, which makes me I guess neither an old hand nor a noob.

I've flown with standard labels & with none, & when I got FC I doctored the labels.lua till I figured they reflected what I could see with my own eyes most accurately.

Having tried both - my advice to a noob would be turn the labels down & ditch the team colours, not turn the labels off.

[S77th-RYKE]

Ryke,

For when you wake up...

I've been flying FC since May, & LO for long enough before that to have spent some months reading before first posting here in Feb, which makes me I guess neither an old hand nor a noob.

I've flown with standard labels & with none, & when I got FC I doctored the labels.lua till I figured they reflected what I could see with my own eyes most accurately.

Having tried both - my advice to a noob would be turn the labels down & ditch the team colours, not turn the labels off.

It's still evening here in Canada but thx lol

 

just saying turning the labels off is essential for online playing at the moment , maybe a few server will have labels occasionaly and that would be cool but right now you want to play online you must turn labels off so better do it now :) so

 

rip that bandaid off at once lol

 

we want more people playing online

[Guest IguanaKing]

With the somewhat limited resolution of computer displays, I think the only way to achieve a realistic effect is to just increase the distance at which an aircraft, visually, is just a pixel on the screen. Inside that range, the dot can start to grow larger at the appropriate distance. One thing in a fight that may give one guy an advantage over the other is his visual acuity, and I think labels tend to level the playing field a bit too much based on a pilot's visual abilities. This should also take into consideration whether the target is above or below the horizon, haze, and all kinds of other factors. Has anybody noticed whether or not wing flash is modeled in this sim?

[Gazehound]

People who have labels on....

 

You turn them off for night missions right?

 

Try it without - why not? Turn them off for a week if you have never done so. Try it - if you dont like it put them back on. Nothing to lose. People who dont have labels on will generally have experienced both environments, and generally they don't go back.

Dodging a missile with labels on, or searching for ground targets, or looking for a bandit that you lost in the beam....it dosent work right.

 

But anyway, the question originally was 'labels off on public servers...why?' not 'I use/dont use labels so i r better', and the answer is that the people who spend time & money operating the servers want it that way. Thats how they and their mates play. Otherwise, they would be on.

[Maverick-90]

Erm . . . . . are you suggesting you should be able to see an F14 at 30km with the naked eye?

nyet.......i was able to spot them, because the labels showed them at that distance.....maybe u can spot a B-52 at that distance without goggles, but not a Fighter with 15m wingspan.....so without labels it would never have been possible to spot them...

[Maverick-90]

WTF is up in here? are y'all killing each other just because of a discussion about labels?

[tflash]

When I started flying the A-10 I used labels. I turned them off and had a very hard time finding targets. As I kept at it, it became easier. Now I feel pretty confident about seeing a ground target if he's in the area unless he's in the trees. They take some hard searching. As it seems like it should be. And I'm better at telling whether the target has already been killed. I do wish that the smoke coming from a hit target would last a little longer as it seems unrealistically short.

 

If you think it has to do with having a fancy setup you're wrong. I've never used a TrackIR and until fairly recently I didn't have anything on my joystick to change views. I used the keyboard.

 

In my experience, labels are a crutch that holds back one's search skills. Ride in a wheelchair from birth and your legs will be useless.

 

I agree that search skills are interesting to learn. Do not mix that up with realistic tactics however. In fact, If a CAS driver where forced to be looking around to long to identify targets, it would be extremely dangerous.

 

That's why, in real life, such CAS missions most of the time:

 

- are coordinated with the ground through continuous secure radio chatter with a FAC;

 

- the A-10 has a Pave Penny laser tracker, enabling ground units to illumnate targets with a laser beam detectable by the aircraft's avionics;

 

- A-10's are currently upgraded with Litening II pods for greater stand-off range when acquiring ground targets;

 

The whole idea is to shorten the vulnerable loiter time and being able to do straight passes that effectively bring to bear the weapons on the enemy.

 

Low-level hunt & kill has effectively been countered by MANPAD's. Searching for TST today is performed at much higher altitude and with WAY better avionics. I guess labels would be the second best thing :=)

[GGTharos]

Actually, when flying over Kosovo, some A-10's were designated as AFACs and they would hunt for targets from 29000 feet altitude using high-power gyro-stabilized binocs. They would descend as needed, but in general there were strikers loitering away from the combat zone, or in a safe track, and the AFAC's would call them in to strike targets.