True 180 degree outside view

[Mike Powell]

Perhaps it would be less expensive to have an acrylic dome made for you. The people at www.cleardome.com make them up to 69 inches in diameter. They are located in Maine, USA.

[BHawthorne]

Perhaps it would be less expensive to have an acrylic dome made for you. The people at www.cleardome.com make them up to 69 inches in diameter. They are located in Maine, USA.

 

I looked at their options in 2010. Wrong size, wrong price, wrong configuration.

 

Not sure you quite understand what I have in mind. 360 degree horizontal and 135 degrees vertical for Prepar3d and DCS engines. Eyefinity 5x1L using 5 projectors to cover the sphere -- each using 800x800 resolution covering 55x55" on the 2 meter ball with 10% overlap for blending. The whole idea is the most immersive projection FOV possible. I have 6 Optoma projectors and several Eyefinity 6 cards sitting around, so the hardware isn't an issue. Pre-warping can be handled by Sol7, SimVisuals or Immersive Dispaly Pro. :smilewink:

 

It'll work in 5x1L when using Prepar3d and DCS with custom camera windows. The rest of the time it'll be regular 3x1L for typical surround games.

Edited June 19, 2012 by BHawthorne

[Mike Powell]

Quite likely I don't fully understand what you're trying to do. :)

 

My thought was an off-the-cuff idea that since the cleardome.com people can make large domes it might be possible to use one or two of their products to assemble the image surface from acrylic. I didn't mention originally that the viewing side would need to be treated or coated for light dispersion with something like GOO Systems rear-projection screen paint. That seemed obvious.

 

However you approach the project, I hope you will post a great many details and pix. It's a very interesting subject.

[BHawthorne]

Quite likely I don't fully understand what you're trying to do. :)

 

My thought was an off-the-cuff idea that since the cleardome.com people can make large domes it might be possible to use one or two of their products to assemble the image surface from acrylic. I didn't mention originally that the viewing side would need to be treated or coated for light dispersion with something like GOO Systems rear-projection screen paint. That seemed obvious.

 

However you approach the project, I hope you will post a great many details and pix. It's a very interesting subject.

 

I was going to buy one of those 60" domes in 2010, but the shipping immediately killed that idea. It cost as much to buy the dome as to ship it.

 

It's also another reason why I'm humoring an inflatable sphere. size and shipping is not much of an issue on something that can be deflated and packed into a box. I just need to work out how to keep positive pressure on the ball with proper airflow. Gene Buckle uses some sort of logic circuit to maintain proper vacuum on his collimated display. I'd need something the opposite to maintain slightly posative pressure within the sphere while maintaining constant refreshment of the air within it. I'm thinking on piping it in through a circular floor platform to put it on.

 

The idea is pretty out there and largely impractical but I think once the pre-warp is dialed in it'll be an immersive experience. The whole concept of 360/135 FOV is compelling to me in an interactive gaming environment. Same thing HMDs are going for but are still far away from achieving in FOV.

Edited June 20, 2012 by BHawthorne

[Flim]

so, using lower res will allow you the 360 horizontal?

[PeterP]

You don't have to use a lower res to get a greater FOV - this really depends on your projection method.

 

Look at this example of four warped view-ports on a spherical back-projection from the top:

 

 

 

And now you should understand that there will be areas that have a less density of pixels and also areas of higher pixel density.

 

This all must be taken in consideration before setting up the projection and how to warp the view-ports to align them properly

 

More projectors/view-ports = higher resolution.

You always have to find a good compromise ...

 

That could be like this : 1920x1080 for the front view and 1280x720 for left/right.

Edited June 20, 2012 by PeterP

[scheffchen]

We need the capability to run multiple views on networked pc's!

 

+1

otherwise I dont believe that we wont have multiple projector-screens and eye candy at the same time until the year 2040 (probably earlier) ;)

[Flim]

Ya Peter, looks like you have a good point... maybe he will be using more projectors in return for less res. The preformance will be pretty bad unless we can network something and get the load off the main pc.

 

I will have a media room in my new house which will be the pit room. I would like to get a 5 projector setup... front, sides, back, and one for some vertical.

[BHawthorne]

so, using lower res will allow you the 360 horizontal?

 

Here is an illustration of one projection area.

Green: 800x800 area

Green Line: The projection would be pre-warped to this boundary with 10% overlap outside for blend.

Red: Pixels not needed.

 

The only resolution that matters is vertical resolution. 1280x800 or 800x800 it's all the same pixel size. In order to project onto a tight radius sphere there is no reason to use any more horizontal resolution than would fall onto the sphere. Using more would just be wasting GPU processing power. Why process for 6400x800 when all you need to process for is 4000x800. 5,120,000 pixels vs 3,200,000 pixels. A significant difference in pixel to process. 4000x800 is not a lot of pixel processing. To give you an idea, 3840x1024 is 3,932,160 pixel and that resolution is not a tax at all on GPUs compared to 5760x1080 setups. 4000x800 is even less pixel count than 3840x1024.

 

1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels (1080p)

3840x800 = 3,072,000 pixels (3x 720p)

4000x800 = 3,200,000 pixels (5x 800x800)

2560x1440 = 3,686,400 pixels (1440p)

3840x1024 = 3,932,160 pixels (3x 19")

2560x1600 = 4,096,000 pixels (1600p)

6400x800 = 5,120,000 pixels (5x 720p)

5400x1080 = 5,832,000 pixels (5x 1080x1080)

5760x1080 = 6,220,800 pixels (3x 1080p)

 

Note, this design is processing half the pixel count a triplehead 1080p setup needs to. Also note that 5x 1080x1080 needs less processing power than triple 1080p does. Why use 1280x800 projectors instead of 1920x1080 projectors? Pixel processing requirements, lens throw capability to mount projectors closer to the screen and cost per projector (and lastly because I already have the projectors). The thing about projection is that the screen design dictates a lot about why things are done. Those extra pixels are projecting outside the surface of the screen. No need for them to be GPU processed.

 

Looking at PeterP's diagram is basically what I have in mind plus the top projection bounced off a first surface mirror onto the screen surface. Projectors have thermal issues and can be mounted only in certain orientations. Mounting pointing down would lead to failure of the projector from overheating.

 

The lua scripting is going to be the weak point in this with performance hit though. It points towards a deficiency that would probably need to be addressed in the future with engine optimizations.

 

This setup is pretty limited in target audience, but it should also work in FSX/Prepar3d with custom camera views too.

Edited June 21, 2012 by BHawthorne

[Flim]

I was looking at the optoma gt720... what do you think?

[BHawthorne]

I was looking at the optoma gt720... what do you think?

 

It's a no-nonsense projector. No real added features other than NVIDIA 3D Vision. It's a fixed lens projector so no zoom options. Good brightness at 1280x800@60hz. I've been using the GT720's pretty religiously since late 2010. The price is right. They're EOL though.

 

Optima has since then replaced the GT700 -> GT720 -> GT750 -> GT750e

 

All of them have the same lens throw and setup characteristics. At about 6 foot viewing distance 48-60" projection height looks good. The pixels aren't too big. Going larger than 60" or closer than 6 foot you begin to notice. By projection height I don't mean like how TVs or LCDs are measure diagonally, but rather the actual vertical projection height. These projectors are capable of a large wall projection. They are 0.72:1 lens throw. That means mounting the projector 7 feet back gives you a 10 foot wide projection on a flat surface.

 

There are a few GT750 users on WSGF. One person I know is thinking about the GT750e. I can tell you a lot about the GT720. It's a known quantity to me. When I did all the events for AMD we used GT720 for the project builds. I've used 13 GT720's spread over the course of 10 event setups so far. Not one issue with any of them. I've used both factory refurbished and new. My personal set of three is factory refurbished. I've got around 1800 hours into my personal set of three GT720 at the moment.

 

If there ever was a native 1080p ultra short throw I'd use that, but no manufacturers make them. My reasoning for the GT720 is it's a bright projector, S3D capable, ultra short throw lens and $500 price point. There is no other competitor out there that can claim all that at $500 that has a proven track record.

Edited June 24, 2012 by BHawthorne

[Flim]

Thanks for info...

 

Now, how do you plan to place your projectors?

 

Or all rear projection? I have a nice boxed room I will use, so rear projection might no be the best way.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Flim

[BHawthorne]

Thanks for info...

 

Now, how do you plan to place your projectors?

 

Or all rear projection? I have a nice boxed room I will use, so rear projection might no be the best way.

 

My regular circular projection screen is front projection with Eyefinity 2x1L. The one in my sig is an old screen configuration I had in my basement I no longer use. I have a different screen and projector configuration now for my gaming setup. It looks the same but it's 2x1 instead of 3x1. Less bulb consumables and initial cost when only buying two instead of three.

 

Here is a really basic 120 degree single projector setup. 100% portable screen and single projector design.

 

Here is another 2x1L design I have in the Kansas Aviation Museum. It's using my old screen. The same one in my sig video. This is the same screen AMD used at the 6870 video card launch event and at CES 2011.

 

I also manufactured two 2x1L portable screens in January for Aviation Xtreme:

https://aviationxtreme.com/Flights_and_Prices.html

 

The rear projection sphere design is a whole different proof of concept build. I'll build it in my workshop.

 

Depending on your room size I can work through it with you for a design. I really am partial to Eyefinity 2x1 builds because of the cost of entry is much lower than a triple-head setup. Front projection, rear projection, different projector count -- I'm used to working up one-off designs. I don't just use one setup. I have several depending on the requirements needed. The reason why I'm humoring doing the sphere is I'm bored with regular circular builds and want to do something a bit more exotic. I've experienced the FOV of a 180 degree screen and still find myself wanting to have even more immersion and FOV. The rear projection sphere screen will end up being just one of many screens I already have. I'm not happy with just making one screen and calling it good. I'm a tinkerer by nature and like to experiment.

Edited June 24, 2012 by BHawthorne

[Flim]

Your projects look great!

 

I'm thinking about a box projection, front, left, right, rear, and top view. Basically what your trying to do, but your in a ballon! lol

 

I might venture on what your doing depending on the space required... and if you can get them to make you a white ballon.

 

Maybe I can get Gadroc on this as well to help with the view ports...

[BHawthorne]

The thing you need to be mindful of is that you want the shortest lens throw possible. Look specifically for projectors that are 0.48:1 to 0.52:1. I previously said look for 0.72:1 to 0.49:1 but then I realized what configuration you wanted to do. In order to do 4 or 5 sided rear projection within a room you need the shortest lens throws possible. I've seen some really good 0.49:1 projectors but never owned any yet. They would tend to be $150 more than the Optoma ones I ended up with. When you go multi-projector that cost difference gets exponential. I prioritized cost over lens throw spec. You'll really need to focus down on lens throw being a prime factor for projectors picked in order to get projectors that will allow the short distances required. I'll dig around later tonight and give you some leads on certain projectors. While I'm doing something similar to what you have in mind, I'll be experimenting with it in a large shop building that has room. If you plan to use a regular room in a house 0.49:1 lens throw will be imperative.

 

I'm not suggesting this specific projector, but here is one 0.49:1 as an example. You can work the math needed with the link to see how things will work as far as distance requirements and mounting positions based on projection size.

 

http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-MP782_ST-projection-calculator-pro.htm

 

What is the room size you are thinking about setting things up in?

Edited June 25, 2012 by BHawthorne

[scheffchen]

just one question here:

would you always prefer lcd over led projectors? Sure, in a bright room the image quality decreases with led, but otherwise when dimming the room they seem good value for the money (heat production, lifespan,price). For example like this one: http://geizhals.de/762906 (Acer K130 DLP/LED (EY.JE601.001)).

What do you think?

 

Boris

[BHawthorne]

just one question here:

would you always prefer lcd over led projectors? Sure, in a bright room the image quality decreases with led, but otherwise when dimming the room they seem good value for the money (heat production, lifespan,price). For example like this one: http://geizhals.de/762906 (Acer K130 DLP/LED (EY.JE601.001)).

What do you think?

 

Boris

 

The larger the projection is the more spread out your light is (even in a pitch black room). You don't want to mess with anything under 1200 ANSI lumens preferable 2000+.

 

I think you're mixing up terms and concepts. Traditional projector bulbs are UHP mercury arc lamps which are extremely hot. Nothing to do with DLP or LCD. LCD or DLP are the engines that are lit by the bulbs, not the bulbs themselves. LED projector bulbs are a whole different animal than UHP projector bulbs.

 

LED bulbs typically never achieve over 300 ANSI lumens and on the rare occasion 500. Until technology has caught up and can give a 1200 ANSI lumen LED bulb, you really don't want it. LED bulbs have wonderful lifespan, but horrible lumens. Your eyes can adjust to the low lumens but your room is going to need to be 100% pitch black.

 

My first projector in 2006 was 300 lumens and I hated it. I cursed the money I wasted on it. I suppose I could give you a side-by-side comparison of 300 lumens vs 2500 lumens. I have my old projector in the basement somewhere.

Edited June 25, 2012 by BHawthorne

[BHawthorne]

Digging around I just ran into the Optoma ZW210ST and ZX210ST. I wonder if laser/LED hybrids have the same characteristics of running cool that LED projectors have? If so these two projectors are very appealing to me (2000 ANSI lumens) and I might swap my GT720's for these. They look to be very new on the market, just been released in April. These are the only LED based projectors with high limens and short throw lens that I've seen on the consumer market.

 

1280x800: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-ZW210ST.htm

1024x768: http://www.projectorcentral.com/Optoma-ZX210ST.htm

Edited June 25, 2012 by BHawthorne

[rocketeer]

What do you think of 3D projectors?

 

Do they have wide screen format?

 

Have you tried 2x1 setup for such beemers?

[BHawthorne]

What do you think of 3D projectors?

 

Do they have wide screen format?

 

Have you tried 2x1 setup for such beemers?

 

S3D works. I use it with my Optoma GT720's. Be mindful that 120hz projection with S3D glasses halves your brightness. Your projection is significantly brighter at 60hz without S3D glasses.

 

Not sure what you mean by widescreen format? It works just the same with a span of 3 as with just one. I use NVIDIA 3D Vision kit with my circular screens.

 

Yes, been using 3x1 and 2x1 setups with S3D without any difference than single projector. At issue with NVIDIA 3D Vision and 2x1 though I needed to buy a MViewer box to make the span at 120hz. NVIDIA Surround itself has no 2x1 mode nor can Matrox boxes achieve 120hz.

 

AMD also has S3D options but I have no experience with AMD version of S3D.

Edited June 26, 2012 by BHawthorne

[rocketeer]

Thanks for the info.

[Flim]

Any more news on the bubble?

[Weltensegler]

What do you think of 3D projectors?

 

Do they have wide screen format?

 

Have you tried 2x1 setup for such beemers?

 

Most reasonable priced models don't support more than 60Hz when running 1080p unfortunately.

[BHawthorne]

Any more news on the bubble?

 

Working several different projects at the moment. There'll be info when there is info. Plans are still moving forward on it. :smilewink:

 

Moving into a 40x60 shop this weekend and also pulling the canopy and ejection seat on my F-84F.

Edited June 29, 2012 by BHawthorne

[BHawthorne]

Most reasonable priced models don't support more than 60Hz when running 1080p unfortunately.

 

Yep, 120hz 1080p is not cost effective atm. 2500 ANSI lumens 1080p isn't cost effective at the moment either. Same with ultra short throw.

 

It amazes me how 1280x800 can get things so right in most specifications except the resolution and 1080p can get it typically so wrong. If manufacturer's would make a 1080p using the specs of their typical ultra short throws we'd all be set.