Su-25T...what a turd

[GGTharos]

Since he's not cooperating, NCTR Matrix:

 

Does the radar ID him as a specific aircraft?

Is he in the right place, at the right time?

Where did he take off from?

 

Etc. I don't know where you get the idea that he wouldn't know how to handle it ... they have procedures for that.

 

You can have the best hardware in the world, but it doesn't mean anything if the pilot flying it doesn't know how to handle it.

 

How does the F-22 handle a jet that is RF cold? It becomes a blob on RADAR that he can't ID. Should he shoot or not?

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[JCamel]

That's why I said "at least half reputable." Believe it or not, there are actually corners of the interwebs where little bits of truth accidentally fall into the cracks. Since we're not having this discussion at the local library branch, I thought maybe you could find one single instance of something on the internet backing up this supposed fact you're pushing, for convenience's sake if not absolute factual certainty.

 

Why you've chosen to argue the semantics of proof with the time-honored "the internet is a lie" route instead of actually looking for anything that mentions an F-22, a Typhoon, and a WVR engagement in the same sentence is evidence enough that, besides your supposed pilot connection, you don't have the slightest reason to think this.

Pfft. Well okay, believe what you want. You prove it didn't happen.

[Corrigan]

You prove it didn't happen.

 

Yeah, cause that's how burden of proof works. :doh:

[GGTharos]

How about you prove that it did :)

 

Pfft. Well okay, believe what you want. You prove it didn't happen.

[JCamel]

The closest the Typhoon and Raptor have ever gotten to doing DACT together so far is both airframes sharing a ramp at China Lake while we were over there doing bombing trials.

And the Canaries and UAE?

 

EDIT:

And unless the Raptor driver is useless, or the RoE etc heavily favour the Typhoons, or the Typhoon pilots are just damn lucky, the Raptor damn well should win the fight.

Sure, in a real life style encounter from BVR it wins everytime but when dogfighting it doesn't. Why would it? It's practically twice the weight of the Typhoon. Not that it counts for much but the Military Channel did a dogfight contest on a supercomputer and the Typhoon won 8 of 10 tests.

 

Heavy planes with lower TWR don't usually make better dogfighters but like I said, it's not the be-all and end-all of air superiority like it once was. In fact dogfighting is probably like 5% of air superiority in modern air combat. So why people get so hung-up on it is beyond me. It's not like the dogfighting was even the design premise of the F-22, if it was, they'd just have made it an F-16 with two engines and saved a shit-load of money.

Edited July 17, 2012 by JCamel

[JCamel]

Yeah, cause that's how burden of proof works. :doh:

Well, I've given my evidence, so I'm waiting for proof that no air-to-air training engagements have taken place between the Typhoon and F-22.

 

Funny, but if I'd come on here and said that I'd heard a story about the F-22 popping up 1nm behind an F-16 without being noticed, no F-22 nut-swinger would even question it.

[JCamel]

How about you prove that it did :)

Sure, one of the pilots was called Maverick and took a polaroid. One second while I scan it.:doh:

 

Exactly what proof do you believe I could have other than the word of a Typhoon pilot? A written report which is probably classified? Seriously, you want me to hack into some defence computers and find it. FFS.

[monotwix]

I wouldn’t be surprised if any flight tests were carried out with any aircraft.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, I can run a simulation too, and I could make f-5's beat raptors as well.

 

So let me getbthis straight ... Some pilot told you something classified that no one else acknowledges but you blab it around here despite knowing better since you worked with Typhoons.

 

I know Eddie called bollocks on your story, I know at least one excellent And current USAF pilot calling nollocks on your story, so I thinkmyou're solidly proven wrong. Looks like the evidence is against you. The brits were quick to pounce on tiffies pouncing mudhens, I van't see why thye wouldn't do the same with Raptors - heck, there are hud cams recordings and snapshots out there showing a 22 in someone's sights.

 

That's not to mention your lack of understanding of BFM evidenced by quoting TWR ratios. A 5% advantage is pretty minor especially if you are going tomlose it to drag, and you never know what the merge fuel state will be before hand anyway. A Raptor at combat weight will be close to 1.3 TWR, and preeeetty low wing-loading. That's without considering the rumours from a couple years back that the engines were tuned up to 38000lbf a piece, or the relative regime performance of both aircraft, which we could only speculate on.

 

And all that without considering that BFM in RL is not a 1v1 sport, which is the biggest deal here, made much worse by stealth for the victim. Incidentally, actually yes, the ATF was supposed to be very maneuverable and designed for dogfighting, which is precisely why it is so good at it - even in fair fights.

 

Sure, one of the pilots was called Maverick and took a polaroid. One second while I scan it.:doh:

 

Exactly what proof do you believe I could have other than the word of a Typhoon pilot? A written report which is probably classified? Seriously, you want me to hack into some defence computers and find it. FFS.

Edited July 17, 2012 by GGTharos

[Tango]

Since he's not cooperating, NCTR Matrix:

 

Does the radar ID him as a specific aircraft?

Is he in the right place, at the right time?

Where did he take off from?

 

Etc. I don't know where you get the idea that he wouldn't know how to handle it ... they have procedures for that.

I know there are procedures to handle it, but people need to look and think beyond the technology. ;) IRL it isn't as simple as lock, instant ID and shoot if hostile.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[GGTharos]

Ah, I see what you meant :) S!

 

 

 

I know there are procedures to handle it, but people need to look and think beyond the technology. ;) IRL it isn't as simple as lock, instant ID and shoot if hostile.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

[monotwix]

Look at you getting all emotional, trigger happy?

[pyromaniac4002]

Sure, one of the pilots was called Maverick and took a polaroid. One second while I scan it.:doh:

 

Exactly what proof do you believe I could have other than the word of a Typhoon pilot? A written report which is probably classified? Seriously, you want me to hack into some defence computers and find it. FFS.

 

 

Yes. That is exactly what is being asked of you. In fact, if you don't commit at least one act of treason in the next 20 minutes no one will believe anything you say and we'll point at you and call you a stupid-head. :pilotfly:

 

And actually I just got back from the library and the Typhoon holds the Guiness World Record for most number of times it never encountered an F-22 in DACT and royally kicked its Raptor-ass.

 

</sarcasm>

 

You know you could save everyone the trouble and say you're just going off of what your friend said, and you're incapable of believing that anyone could ever lie (except of course for in that internet machine thing, but not you, because then you could lie about your friend saying that, or even that your friend exists, or anything, because you're telling the truth but nobody else on the internet ever does and that's how it works).

[JCamel]

 

You know you could save everyone the trouble and say you're just going off of what your friend said, and you're incapable of believing that anyone could ever lie (except of course for in that internet machine thing, but not you, because then you could lie about your friend saying that, or even that your friend exists, or anything, because you're telling the truth but nobody else on the internet ever does and that's how it works).

And what exactly are you going from? You could just admit that the thought of an F-22 getting beaten at anything renders you impotent, so you refuse to consider it as a possibility without viagra.

 

So just for the sake of your manhood we'll say that the F-22 can beat everything at everything and even outperformed a stunt plane in an aerobatics display and won the Red Bull air-race, before continuing on a strategic bombing mission, where it out-bombed 12 B-52s and took on every country from the former Soviet Union single handed and made it home with just a small piece of schrapnel up the pilot's arse, which was later found to be his brain.

 

Goodnight, hope this helps you perform.

 

 

Yeah, I can run a simulation too, and I could make f-5's beat raptors as well.

 

So let me getbthis straight ... Some pilot told you something classified that no one else acknowledges but you blab it around here despite knowing better since you worked with Typhoons.

 

I know Eddie called bollocks on your story, I know at least one excellent And current USAF pilot calling nollocks on your story, so I thinkmyou're solidly proven wrong. Looks like the evidence is against you. The brits were quick to pounce on tiffies pouncing mudhens, I van't see why thye wouldn't do the same with Raptors - heck, there are hud cams recordings and snapshots out there showing a 22 in someone's sights.

 

That's not to mention your lack of understanding of BFM evidenced by quoting TWR ratios. A 5% advantage is pretty minor especially if you are going tomlose it to drag, and you never know what the merge fuel state will be before hand anyway. A Raptor at combat weight will be close to 1.3 TWR, and preeeetty low wing-loading. That's without considering the rumours from a couple years back that the engines were tuned up to 38000lbf a piece, or the relative regime performance of both aircraft, which we could only speculate on.

 

And all that without considering that BFM in RL is not a 1v1 sport, which is the biggest deal here, made much worse by stealth for the victim. Incidentally, actually yes, the ATF was supposed to be very maneuverable and designed for dogfighting, which is precisely why it is so good at it - even in fair fights.

I don't know if it was classified or just something that isn't usually banded about. It was at a Christmas do in 2008. Their squadron leader was saying it was the finest fighter in the world. I said, "what about the F-22?" He said that as a dogfighter the Typhoon was better but conceeded that the F-22 made a better interceptor due to its low visibility characteristics. I said, "so the Typhoon is better in a dogfight? I thought the F-22 had all this thrust vectoring stuff." He said that didn't really make much of a difference in a dogfight with much the same explanation that I've repeated in this thread and that their guys had beaten the F-22 in a recent training exercise in dogfights and he then called over a pilot to confirm.

 

Whilst they had had a little to drink at the time, a month or so later there was talk on forums quoting various subscription magazines that seemed to confirm the conversation but nothing solid.

 

That's all I have as evidence. Never claimed to have anything else. All depends on what the individual wants to believe. Do I believe it's possible for a 35,000lb aircraft to beat a 65,000lb aircraft in a dogfight? Yeah sure. TWR aside, you've got inertia to consider. Frankly I couldn't give a shit what anyone wants to believe. This is all the evidence I have, take it or leave it, I don't give a ****. My last word on the matter.

Edited July 17, 2012 by JCamel

[monotwix]

Yes. That is exactly what is being asked of you. In fact, if you don't commit at least one act of treason in the next 20 minutes no one will believe anything you say and we'll point at you and call you a stupid-head. :pilotfly:

 

And actually I just got back from the library and the Typhoon holds the Guiness World Record for most number of times it never encountered an F-22 in DACT and royally kicked its Raptor-ass.

 

</sarcasm>

 

You know you could save everyone the trouble and say you're just going off of what your friend said, and you're incapable of believing that anyone could ever lie (except of course for in that internet machine thing, but not you, because then you could lie about your friend saying that, or even that your friend exists, or anything, because you're telling the truth but nobody else on the internet ever does and that's how it works).

 

Oh that is so informative. Are you a pilot? Oh I know strategic analyser.

[Grimes]

Boy that Su-25T might be a little annoying to fly, but it still is fun...

 

Why is everyone banging on about the Raptor and Typhoon?

[GGTharos]

Probably because they can't shoot Vikhrs.

[JCamel]

Boy that Su-25T might be a little annoying to fly, but it still is fun...

The greater variety of weapons makes it fun IMO, especially the ARMs. Don't like the way it shakes though.

[GGTharos]

Its transsonic buffet - fly slower :)

[monotwix]

I don’t like its brakes. 2 BIG doughnuts for tyres and no brakes.

Edited July 18, 2012 by monotwix

[JCamel]

Its transsonic buffet - fly slower :)

Does the same thing if you turn too fast though. The A-10 just beeps at you.

[genbrien]

Its transsonic buffet - fly slower :)

 

or faster and break the sound barrier :D

:music_whistling:

[JCamel]

or faster and break the sound barrier :D

:music_whistling:

In theory, if you weld the release mechanism for 2 Kh-58s, it could be possible.

[GGTharos]

That buffet tells you you are max performing the wing. Supposedly the A-10 is much more benign, but other planes will buffet at high AoA as well.

 

 

Does the same thing if you turn too fast though. The A-10 just beeps at you.

[Hellfire257]

You know you're pushing her too far when the wings fall off!