Forgotten Items?

[TurboHog]

I was reading about the KA-50 and found some interesting stuff.

 

Self-defence: L150 Pastel RWR in tailcone, at rear of each wingtip EW pod and under nose; total of 512 chaff/ flare cartridges (in four UV-26 dispensers) in each wingtip pod. L-140 Otklik laser detection system; L-136 Mak IR warning.

(Source)

 

L-136 Mak-UFM latest generation IR missile approach warning sensor for Ka-50, MiG-24VM upgrade.

(Source)

 

So this makes me want to ask some questions...

 

- Where are the 512 flares? Shouldn't this be changed in the next patch? Wikipedia also confirms this information, for what it is worth. On the other hand, I'm counting 64 'holes' on each side of the KA-50 model. Is there any good picture of a real UV-26 dispenser on the Ka-50?

 

- There is an MWS switch. Is this for the L-136 Mak? And why is it not implemented in the KA-50? Both sources suggest that this system is for production KA-50's. Is there no sufficient data available?

 

I really hope that the Mak is going to be modelled because ED is not opposed to doing so...

 

ED is not actually opposed to modeling the MAK-UFM system, because it has been tested on a Ka-50 and the latest service machines to roll off the production line carry the sensor pods for it (not the actual sensors though).

 

And by now do the active KA-50's carry the sensors? I suppose the answer is yes...

 

An old thread about this.

Edited July 22, 2012 by TurboHog

[159th_Viper]

Last I heard, the NII Ekran L370 Vitebsk MWS is the current protection suite for the Kamovs, with the pastel and radar jammer not yet installed or tested.

 

Herewith excerpt of publication:

 

INTERNATIONAL DEFENSE REVIEW -

 

FEBRUARY 01, 2005

 

The L370 Vitebsk helicopter self-protection system, developed by the NII

Ekran institute of Samara, Russia, has been flight tested on board a Kamov

Ka-50 'Havoc' attack helicopter during the second half of 2004.

Known as Kolchuga in its export derivative, the system has been designed to protect combat and assault helicopters against anti-aircraft missile systems and fighter aircraft. Fully automatic in its operation, the system warns the crew when a threat is detected, activates countermeasures and suggests an evasive manoeuvre by means of a multifunction display and audio signals.

 

NII Ekran also developed the active electronic jamming module that is a part of the Vitebsk/Kolchuga system, as well as the system control panel. So far, qualification tests of several individual components of the system have been completed and their production has started.

 

The L140 Otklik ('Response') laser warning unit has been installed on series

Ka-50 helicopters while this subsystem has also been introduced on upgraded Mil Mi-8 'Hip' and Mi-24 'Hind' helicopters operating in Chechnya.

 

The Vitebsk system now being tested on Ka-50 helicopters is, however, not yet complete: the Pastel radar warning receiver and L370-3 active radar

jammer are still lacking. In the future, the complete Vitebsk/Kolchuga

system will be installed on Ka-50/Ka-52 attack helicopters, as well as on

the Mi-8GM assault helicopter. Individual elements of the system will be

installed on Mi-8, Mi-24, Mi-26 and Ka-27 helicopters as part of their

mid-life update.

 

The system is controlled by the L370-01 module that processes the

information received from the radar, laser and infrared warning sensors,

generates commands for jamming devices and provides information to the

pilot. The Pastel radar warning receiver operates within the G-J band range

(4-20 GHz) and covers an area of 360 x 60º. The unit detects ground-based and airborne radar from a distance that is claimed to be 20 per cent greater than the distance at which the helicopter would be detected by the hostile radar.

 

On the Ka-50, the Pastel receiving antennas will be installed on the

wingtip fairings (two forward-looking antennas), as well as on the sides of

the tail beam (two aft-looking antennas). The Pastel unit has been designed by Centralnoye Konstruktorskoye Byuro Avtomatiki (CKBA) in Omsk.

 

The L140 Otklik laser warning receiver was installed on the Ka-50 helicopter as a stand-alone unit several years ago and has now been integrated into the Vitebsk system. Four Otklik sensor units are arranged symmetrically around the helicopter fuselage: two on the sides, one on the nose and one below the tail. Otklik covers 360º in azimuth and 90º in elevation. The unit operates within the 0.4-1.1 µm band and defines the position of the threat with a 10º accuracy, the manufacturer claimed. The Otklik device has been developed by Zagorskiy Optiko-Mekhanicheskiy Zavod (ZOMZ) in Sergiyev-Posad near Moscow.

 

The missile launch and approach warning device Mak-UFM can detect a hostile missile launch up to 15 km away, its makers said. The unit detects the missile launch and indicates the weapon's direction of arrival. Four Mak

sensor units are arranged symmetrically at 45º angle on the sides, on the

nose and on the tail of the helicopter fuselage. Mak-UFM is the first device

of this type installed on Russian helicopters; former variants of Mak were

installed only on fixed-wing aircraft. The Mak-UFM device has been designed by NTC Reagent in Moscow.

 

The jamming devices of the Vitebsk system include two active jamming units (radar and infrared) as well as countermeasures dispensers. The active radar jammer L370-3 (not fitted yet to Ka-50) is used for jamming ground-based radars of anti-aircraft systems, as well as the seekers of anti-aircraft missiles operating in the G-J band, in 120 x 60º sectors (looking forward and looking aft).

 

The latest development tested on the Ka-50 is the L370-5 active

electro-optical jammer. This generates modulated infrared and ultra-violet

radiation within a solid 7º angle, jamming the infrared seekers of

anti-aircraft missiles. The Ka-50 helicopter has two of these jamming

modules installed on the sides of the lower part of fuselage; these cover

jointly a sector of 360 x 90º.

[TurboHog]

Last I heard, the NII Ekran L370 Vitebsk MWS is the current protection suite for the Kamovs, with the pastel and radar jammer not yet installed or tested.

 

Herewith excerpt of publication:

 

That's interesting stuff. I will pay extra if ED updates some of the avionics, like the MWS. Hope to see some official statement on that. The only thing we know is that ED is not opposed to model it. 3 Years ago.

 

What about the amount of flares? Despite the sources that say 512 flares from 4 UV-26 dispensers, I see no evidence on pictures that this is true. Or does one slot contain 4 cartridges?

 

And what about the ability to carry the R-73?

 

I'm really missing some features :(. Guess it was not possible to accurately model them due to classified material?

[Nate--IRL--]

I'm really missing some features :(. Guess it was not possible to accurately model them due to classified material?

 

I believe it was the model of KA-50 that was simulated did not have these features. The DCS Ka-50 is an accurate representation of a specific Ka-50 Type IIRC.

 

Nate

[TurboHog]

I believe it was the model of KA-50 that was simulated did not have these features. The DCS Ka-50 is an accurate representation of a specific Ka-50 Type IIRC.

 

Nate

 

 

To be more specific: The modelled KA-50 does have the pods but not the sensors. See quote from evilbivol in post # 1.

But by now, they've surely upgraded it to meet the standards of the others. And I would like to see that in the sim.

 

ED is not opposed to do this. Glad I've found this quote. So hopefully one day ?

Edited July 22, 2012 by TurboHog

[Nate--IRL--]

To be more specific: The modelled KA-50 does have the pods but not the sensors. See quote from evilbivol in post # 1.

But by now, they've surely upgraded it to meet the standards of the others. And I would like to see that in the sim.

 

ED is not opposed to do this. Glad I've found this quote. So hopefully one day ?

 

I can't quite recall the exact variant (There are many) but the Single seat Ka-50 in DCS isn't an in service model, IIRC it is a specific Kamov testbed - there have even been photos of changes to the cockpit of this specific airframe. I'm not sure about the MAK IR system either. Note what Evil says, he does not say this specifc airframe had it - although I do concede it is possible to have been tested on the airframe, but only after it was modelled by ED.

 

Now I can't say that these testbed changes won't be introduced, but it would require information and permission from Kamov, and time and money for ED to implement.

 

Nate

Edited July 22, 2012 by Nate--IRL--

[Nate--IRL--]

Some info and pictures on the Ka-50 modelled. Note the changes to the overhead panels in the pictures.

 

None of the cockpits in the photos above have the ABRIS. Instead, they have a simple paper map display.

 

The ABRIS was introduced later when or soon after the Ka-50 was tested in Chechnya. I don't know if the ABRIS was retrofitted to all Ka-50 airframes by now or only to some.

 

ED used airframe #25 as their model in the simulation. #25 was used as a test-bed for a number of trials, including new defensive systems around 2004. You can see a study of #25 below, although some cockpit equipment had by then already been different:

http://walkarounds.airforce.ru/avia/rus/kamov/ka-50/index.htm

 

 

Nate

Edited July 22, 2012 by Nate--IRL--

[TurboHog]

I can't quite recall the exact variant (There are many) but the Single seat Ka-50 in DCS isn't an in service model, IIRC it is a specific Kamov testbed - there have even been photos of changes to the cockpit of this specific airframe. I'm not sure about the MAK IR system either. Note what Evil says, he does not say this specifc airframe had it - although I do concede it is possible to have been tested on the airframe, but only after it was modelled by ED.

 

Now I can't say that these testbed changes won't be introduced, but it would require information and permission from Kamov, and time and money for ED to implement.

 

Nate

 

Read Viper's post (#2).

 

They've tested and installed a newer IR-based MWS on the KA-50's. This one was already in use before ED started modelling their KA-50, so I think it has more to do with classified information. Or by that time there was still a KA-50 (Airframe #25) without any of these improvements (not even the MAK).

 

It would be nice to see the 'new defensive systems' modelled.

 

Anyone knows something about the dispensers and the amount of flares. I don't know what to believe... 512 or 128.

 

Edit.

 

Kamov.net KA50 specs

 

Again, 512 chaffs or flares. And of course the MAK and the RWR...

 

ED must have been presented a very outdated KA-50 for their software development...

Edited July 22, 2012 by TurboHog

[Griffin]

 

Again, 512 chaffs or flares. And of course the MAK and the RWR...

 

ED must have been presented a very outdated KA-50 for their software development...

 

I have been searching through hundreads of photos of Ka-50 and nowhere have I seen any extra flare dispensers. Not even on Ka-52 where they would certainly be installed if deemed necessary. It might be one of those R-73 kind of hoaxes.

 

There is really no "latest" version of Ka-50. Most of them are very different from each other for testing different things I suppose and the DCS Ka-50 is definately not the oldest one still operational. Many airframes are already rotting away... The remaining aircraft will be left for training, airshows and testing if lucky. Most likely them will be disbanded after their flight hours are full.

 

Some examples:

 

Still flying number 27

 

MWS installed but no DIRCM turrets. However the round turret mounting pads are visible in front of landing gear. MWS sensor visible behind the black nose and one in the tail.

 

Here are the turrets and MWS sensor in the back blanked with red cover.

 

And here's a weird one. The only photo I've seen of this upgrade.

 

 

Would I want to see the sensors in DCS? Most definately I would! :)

[TurboHog]

#27 doesn't have the ABRIS, but instead what EvilBivol described: A paper map display.

 

So, the KA-50's (all of them) are not combat-ready anymore? One person in a combat heli looks like a bit of a failed experiment.

 

Very strange indeed that all internet sources keep saying: 512 flares/chaffs. Would be nice if there was a real UV-26 manual available.

 

And that last picture... Black Shark 3? ED come on! :smilewink:

[Griffin]

I don't know how combat ready they are (might be perfectly ready) but personally feel that there are many much better suited helicopters to do combat missions so why use Sharks?

I wonder how many are left flying though. Something between 5 and 10?

 

With modern technology and good funding the Shark could be made a very capable combat helicopter even if not as efficient as it's big brother. It just wasn't there back then.

[EvilBivol-1]

Very strange indeed that all internet sources keep saying: 512 flares/chaffs.

The internet lies all the time. :) Probably it's just one incorrect piece of data being copied and re-copied all over the place.

One person in a combat heli looks like a bit of a failed experiment.

That is basically what it boils down to - yes. There are only a few single-seat Ka-50s in Russian military service and all of them are in the Torzhok helicopter test and training center. These could theoretically be deployed in combat if necessary, but this isn't very likely practically. Even if Torzhok deploys to a combat area, it would likely be with some of its other machines, which include all Russian combat helicopters. Russia is moving forward with dual-seat helicopters and is now activaely procuring the Ka-52, Mi-28N, and Mi-35. Of these, only the Ka-52 is currently equipped with MWS sensors and jammers, and there is still dispute about the service status of these systems (i.e. it's possible they are being equipped without having reached combat capability). For example, the in-service Ka-52s aren't currently employing any guided missiles, either. Just rockets and the cannon. It's a machine that's still undergoing development even as it is in serial production (which isn't so uncommon, really, just more extensive in Russia today than would be normally).

 

Anyway, the point is that the single-seat Ka-50 is not equipped with an RWR, missile warning or jamming systems, or any extra flare launchers. What we have in the sim is very close to what is actually flying and would go to war if it was necessary. As a principle, ED is not opposed to doing what they've jokingly called a Ka-50ED model that would include some of these features, but it doesn't exist in reality and is not a development priority at this point as there are many other projects that require immediate attention.

Edited July 23, 2012 by EvilBivol-1

[EvilBivol-1]

With modern technology and good funding the Shark could be made a very capable combat helicopter even if not as efficient as it's big brother. It just wasn't there back then.

I agree and perhaps keeping them flying in Torzhok may yet produce some future developments of the single-seat attack helicopter concept.

[TurboHog]

Ah thank you for the info! I guess all these sources copied wikipedia or something.

 

Still wondering what the MWS operation mode switch does. I set it to active jamming but, according to the tooltip, this switch is not functioning. I guess it is a switch for potential testing of an MWS system and is not functioning in the real KA-50 either.

 

Is that right?

[cltmmm]

Speaking of other Ka-50 cockpits. Check out these pics I found. Don't know if they have been posted before. The titles were the captions on the website...

 

http://www.aviastar.org/cockpits/index.html

 

Ka-50Sh

Check out the left panel (UV-26 location, targeting computer, no radios)

Center Panel has the datalink below the weapon selection

Right side front, no ABRIS or a smaller screen one.

 

Ka-50 "Mod"

No-comment, looks like something someone on a DCS forum whipped up.

[Migow]

СА-ТЛФ ?

 

hi what is that radio "СА-ТЛФ" (sa-tlf)in ka 50 ? sa for satellite radio(in russian satellite is "сателлит"? tlf for telephony

is it fonctional in the real one ? i guess it's related for "Пульт управления аппаратурой специальной связи" (page 141-142) it's the panel for the СА-ТЛФ radio? (связи = communication)

 

the panel say

отказ= failed

обход= bypass ?

рс1= rs1 ?

громк= volume

сброс= reset

работа= in use

рг= rg?

 

useful in mountain i guess it's link to command post through satellite (no LOS trouble)

Edited September 10, 2012 by Fifou265

[Griffin]

Sorry for reviving but Yo-Yo just injected some christmas spirit into me. ;)

The below is from Russian side poll that is asking if people would pay for additional avionics for Ka-50. Needless to say I voted yes but of course it's still far from happening.

 

...But!

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1631214&postcount=113

Guys, don't argue. If there will be time, this could be done just like that for Ka-50. If this would slow down the development of another module, don't blame. It's unlikely that Black Shark 3 would be announced only for avionics.

 

But this is my personal estimation - like Matt's sig says: "Everything is subject to change".

[lokitexas]

Sorry for reviving but Yo-Yo just injected some christmas spirit into me. ;)

The below is from Russian side poll that is asking if people would pay for additional avionics for Ka-50. Needless to say I voted yes but of course it's still far from happening.

 

...But!

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1631214&postcount=113

 

I really want this....which option is "yes"? lol

[Griffin]

ДА!!!