SU-25T - Internal gunpod doesn't angle down.

[159th_Viper]

and I can't move them with RAlt [/] or RAlt-/+....

 

Did you read post #21 above?

[marcos]

Yes but as I've said it doesn't work. I have no problem selecting FIX. It does that automatically but it then automatically picks the stupidest possible angle to aim the barrels at (straight down) as a default and RCtrl+[ and RCtrl+] do not move them (I checked using F view). The only way to boresight them is to set salvo mode to ALL, which then sets the gunpods to '0' (boresighted). I can still use the auto-aim when a target is lased though.

 

So at present in FIX the barrels are automatically aimed in a direction that makes them impossible to use for some reason and the HUD just shows a flashing pipper symbol.

[159th_Viper]

Yes but as I've said it doesn't work....

 

It does. It will however not when the depression angle is under automatic control as they were when you were flying - that is normal for the mode you selected.

 

I have no problem selecting FIX.....

 

I just watched your track and took control after your second or third gun-pod run. At no time were you in ФИКС (FIX) mode. You were in ПРОГР (PROGR) mode at all times when gunpods were selected. I took control of your track and had no issue selecting ФИКС (FIX) mode and depressing/elevating the gunpods.

 

Why were you even in ПРОГР mode when you were not employing the gunpods from level flight?

[marcos]

Here is the attached track. At the start it works fine but at the end when I switch to gun pods, you can see from the F2 view that they point straight down and seem to be interlocked to the salvo size.

 

When salvo size is set to ALL they boresight, but when set to 1 or 2 they point straight down.

 

It may be caused by pressing SPPU select before selecting GUN. That then leaves it permanently buggered up in an unrecoverable fashion.

 

1 or too other hiccups too. Indestructable B1-B. And when a plane gets its wings blown off, from a distance, they appear to still be there.

Test Track.trk

Edited August 20, 2012 by marcos

[Ironhand]

OK. I confess to being confused and fairly stupid at the moment. I was following the manual and, according to it, you use the pods by:

1. Switching to A2G mode with "7"
   
2. Selecting the internal gun with "C"
   
3. Selecting gun pods by pressing "RCtrl-Space"
   

 

This last seems to do nothing. There is no "RCtrl-Space" listed in my key commands and don't see any binding reference for selecting gun pods. However, they seem to self select, if I use the Ripple Quantity (LCtrl-Space) selection keys. The first time I press that combo, I get this:

 

 

With the 2nd press, I get this:

 

 

 

With the 3rd press I get this (All):

 

 

 

At no point with guns selected can I alter the ripple interval to select Programmed, Fixed, or 0 (Boresighted) independently of what happens with "LCtrl-Space".

 

With the first two presses of LCtrl-Space I can elevate and depress the barrels. Can someone please tell me what I'm missing?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Rich

[Ironhand]

OK. I confess to being confused and fairly stupid at the moment...

OK. Feeling a bit less dense now. Even though the manual tells you to "Set the interval/gun pods mode switch to PROGR mode", there is no key command for it. When you turn on the laser ranger-finder, the switch is automatically shifted from FIX to PROGR. And, evidently, the manual's statement: "Select gun pods by pressing the [RCtrl-Space] key" in several places is a mis-statement.

 

 

 

Rich

[marcos]

That's what I get, the two seem linked and often when the display shows what's on the first of your photos, the pod guns point almost straight down in F2 view, leading to a flashing pipper on the HUD. Sometimes it doesn't do it though. Hopefully they will examine my tracks.

[159th_Viper]

Hopefully they will examine my tracks.

 

As I said before, there is nothing wrong with the SIM in this specific instance. In your tracks, the Gunpods are doing what you are telling them to do. You place the Gunpods in PROGR mode and as such are unable to manually control the depression and elevation - that is normal and how it should work.

 

If you want to elevate and depress the gunpods whilst in FIX mode then take WCS out of PROGR mode by switching off your Shkval. They will not manually depress and elevate whilst in PROGR mode.

[Ironhand]

That's what I get, the two seem linked and often when the display shows what's on the first of your photos, the pod guns point almost straight down in F2 view, leading to a flashing pipper on the HUD. Sometimes it doesn't do it though. Hopefully they will examine my tracks.

I have to leave for work now but I got up a bit early and captured a track file. While some of the manual's instructions are incorrect, most of it works as advertised. There's an issue with the internal cannon. I did notice that, whatever depression angle you leave the pods in , when you cycle away, that is what you will inherit when you return. Take a look and play around with it you'd like. Hopefully I'll have some time this evening for this.

 

 

Rich

[Ironhand]

As I said before, there is nothing wrong with the SIM in this specific instance. In your tracks, the Gunpods are doing what you are telling them to do. You place the Gunpods in PROGR mode and as such are unable to manually control the depression and elevation - that is normal and how it should work.

 

If you want to elevate and depress the gunpods whilst in FIX mode then take WCS out of PROGR mode by switching off your Shkval. They will not manually depress and elevate whilst in PROGR mode.

 

I only had a few minutes before leaving for work this morning to check his track. Unfortunately, my plan be up at 5:00 AM went awry. So I had to run through it a warp speed but, in his defense, I never saw him enter PROGR mode. He was in FIX or Boresight the entire time from what I saw. Of course, I could have missed it. Never saw the laser rangerfinder come on and that's what shifts the dial to the PROGR position.

 

 

Hopefully I'll have time to check it again this evening at a more leisurely pace. Otherwise it'll be early tomorrow AM before I can view it again.

 

Marcos, as a favor, could you fly that mission again as you would normally (Shkval and all) but leave out the bombing, etc and go straight to straffing. (And, of course, upload the track.) For people like myself with very limited time to check what you're doing and test, it'd be helpful.

 

 

Rich

Edited August 21, 2012 by Ironhand

[159th_Viper]

I never saw him enter PROGR mode. He was in FIX or Boresight the entire time from what I saw....

 

That seems to be another issue I am investigating, separate to the issue at hand. At present it would appear that having the Shkval on and locking targets (and as a consequence utilizing rangefinder automatically) puts the pods into PROGR mode, hence my earlier advices to turn Shkval off and all will work as it should.

 

Entirely separate from this issue is the fact that strafing from horizontal flight in PROGR mode seems to be FUBAR: That is however a preliminary finding as I have not had too much time to delve until now.

[marcos]

 

Entirely separate from this issue is the fact that strafing from horizontal flight in PROGR mode seems to be FUBAR: That is however a preliminary finding as I have not had too much time to delve until now.

I can get that to work no problems. You just lock and lase and the elevation adjusts automatically.

 

Ironhand - I'll try again with the Shkval off but can't promise anything as it doesn't always do it sadly.

[159th_Viper]

I can get that to work no problems....

 

Strafing from horizontal flight where the guns start firing automatically only after the trigger is depressed?

 

Could you post a track?

[marcos]

Marcos, as a favor, could you fly that mission again as you would normally (Shkval and all) but leave out the bombing, etc and go straight to straffing. (And, of course, upload the track.) For people like myself with very limited time to check what you're doing and test, it'd be helpful.

 

 

Rich

Okay, just flew it again. The problem did not and would not re-occur until after using the FAB-500 M62s. Then I had the same problem (see screen-shot).

 

Before using the bombs the barrels would just point forward in the same mode regardless of whether the Shkval was on.

Gunpod Issue.trk

[159th_Viper]

Herewith your track where I took control at the time your screenshot was taken. I take control, turn off Shkval and elevate and depress the Gunpods without issue:

 

Track: Gunpod Issue control.trk

[marcos]

Okay I've figured the problem and it lies with the basic controls for the Su-25T in OPTIONS.

 

RCtrl+[ or ] adjust elevation in stepping but Home and End also change it non-stepping. Unfortunately Home and End are also the keys that adjust Shkval target size by default, hence when you set target size to 60, you also get 60deg of gunpod depression.

Gunpod Issue6.trk

[marcos]

Strafing from horizontal flight where the guns start firing automatically only after the trigger is depressed?

 

Could you post a track?

Not sure what you mean, the guns fire whenever you pull the trigger but the elevation is always correct for the locked target, so you only need worry about the direction left-to-right. See attached.

 

Technically it isn't level flight but that's my bad flying.

 

1. Lock target on Shkval.

 

2. After getting 'AC' switch to GUN then GNPD.

 

3. Lase target.

 

4. Open fire as the gun pipper moves across the target marker on the HUD*.

 

*It would be far less confusing if the human factors design team at Sukhoi had made the pipper a different shape to the target marker.

Edited August 21, 2012 by marcos

[159th_Viper]

Not sure what you mean, the guns fire whenever you pull the trigger but the elevation is always correct for the locked target, so you only need worry about the direction left-to-right.

 

Read up on PROGR mode in the manual and you'll understand. Basically the WCS will only fire the gunpods when in range/adequate firing solution is obtained and not before.

[marcos]

Read up on PROGR mode in the manual and you'll understand. Basically the WCS will only fire the gunpods when in range/adequate firing solution is obtained and not before.

The system can only manage the vertical component of the aiming, you must manage the left-to-right direction. The system will fire once in range when it is able to achieve a vertical aiming solution but this does not mean that it will only fire if the left-right aiming is correct, you must gauge that.

 

See attached.

 

Technically it isn't level flight but that's my bad flying.

 

1. Lock target on Shkval.

 

2. After getting 'AC' switch to GUN then GNPD.

 

3. Lase target.

 

4. Open fire as the gun pipper moves across the target marker on the HUD*.

 

*It would be far less confusing if the human factors design team at Sukhoi had made the pipper a different shape to the target marker.

PROGR strafing.trk

[159th_Viper]

^^^^^^

No, that is not what I am referring to. Read the manual :)

[marcos]

^^^^^^

No, that is not what I am referring to. Read the manual :)

Okay. Well I have read the manual and I believe that is what it is talking about on page 54-55.

 

THE PROGRAMMED MODE IS USED FOR THE PINPOINT ATTACKS AGAINST LIGHTLY ARMORED TARGETS.

[marcos]

Herewith your track where I took control at the time your screenshot was taken. I take control, turn off Shkval and elevate and depress the Gunpods without issue:

 

Track: [ATTACH]69690[/ATTACH]

As I mentioned above I was confused by the fact that target size and gunpod elevation are interlocked. If you look at your Shkval you will see that the elevation change has altered the target size on the Shkval.

 

As regards horizontal strafing you'll have to point to the bit in the manual in question. You can depress the gunpods after locking a target but the guns will fire whenever you pull the trigger and there is no computer adjustment.

 

There are only 3 forms of gunpod strafing:

 

Boresight - zero angle depression

Horizontal Flight - with selected depression (use Home and End to adjust depression as RCtrl+[/] doesn't work) along a line of targets. This is not done in PROGR mode.

Programmed strafing of point target - computer adjusts elevation and you fire across targets once in range. Good for picking off light targets from range.

PROGR strafing1.trk

Edited August 21, 2012 by marcos

[Ironhand]

...

*It would be far less confusing if the human factors design team at Sukhoi had made the pipper a different shape to the target marker.

:) OTOH, when the two are precisely superimposed and the wings are level, it's very easy to tell by what you see on the HUD. So that would be the benefit of the design.

 

 

Rich

[Ironhand]

Okay I've figured the problem and it lies with the basic controls for the Su-25T in OPTIONS.

 

RCtrl+[ or ] adjust elevation in stepping...

Are you sure aout this? Because those are the commands that give me a smooth transition. Just "[" and "]" do it stepped for me, although the axis is reversed. What is "up" on one version is "down" on the other.

 

...but Home and End also change it non-stepping...

Hadn't caught that one yet. :)

 

...Unfortunately Home and End are also the keys that adjust Shkval target size by default, hence when you set target size to 60, you also get 60deg of gunpod depression.

Now isn't that a PITA. :)

 

 

Wish I was at home to doublecheck what the manual has to say about PROGR mode because I don't recall it saying anything about depressing the trigger and the guns firing automatically when in range. Unfortunately, the info is scattered in several different places.

 

 

Rich

[159th_Viper]

You can depress the gunpods after locking a target but the guns will fire whenever you pull the trigger and there is no computer adjustment.....

 

Not quite correct.

 

Apologies for being vague: I was referring to utilizing PROGR mode with Combat Steering mode. WCS/AP will automatically adjust gunpod depression/elevation angle to put rounds on target whilst simultaneously maintaining the correct pitch and bank angle to ensure horizontal flight over target throughout the engagement.

 

Track: Auto Gunpod aiming.trk

 

 

 

 

 

Wish I was at home to doublecheck what the manual has to say about PROGR mode because I don't recall it saying anything about depressing the trigger and the guns firing automatically when in range. Unfortunately, the info is scattered in several different places.

 

My fault - apologies.

 

That's me getting confused with depressing trigger when LA is obtained in Combat Steering mode - I mixed it up thinking that trigger is depressed prior to LA........:music_whistling:

 

It's been a while since I tinkered with CS mode and Gunpods :D