Ракеты в DCS

[Max1mus]

14 hours ago, tavarish palkovnik said:

 

ЗВП прототипа соответствовать ЗВП ракеты Meteor…по документации Вымпела

 

 

 

85 километров на 15000м?

 

Только что проверил, для полности тупую цель в автопилотом в игре, такой пуск Р-77 только возможно со скоростях М1.55+.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Max1mus

[Chizh]

31 минуту назад, Hoarfrost сказал:

И не верится что РВВ-АЕ без лофта, столько летчиков, техников говорило что там лофт есть.

Сколько?

 

31 минуту назад, Hoarfrost сказал:

Столько флотов других стран с ней летает, зачем ее было брать тогда если есть р27эр? И что же получается, плохие русские всех обманули, в буклетах указали 80 км, а она на 50 летает. Почти в два раза.

Она может и на 80, в стратосфере и на скоростях пуска 2М.

[bunik]

4 часа назад, Chizh сказал:

"Дерганье" это тоже маневр. Ракеты способны развивать большие перегрузки и для человека это будет выглядеть как дерганье.

а вот это самое "дерганье" на видео - это ракета на НЛО наводится? я чет не пойму траекторию цели, для перехвата которой такие маневры нужны?

[Hoarfrost]

23 минуты назад, Chizh сказал:

Сколько?

 

Она может и на 80, в стратосфере и на скоростях пуска 2М.

105км для р27эр  для таких же условий? или везде маркетинг и реклама?

[Chizh]

6 минут назад, Hoarfrost сказал:

105км для р27эр  для таких же условий?

Это возможно в DCS.

[Hoarfrost]

15 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

Это возможно в DCS.

я знаю, пробовал) я имею ввиду про буклеты. 80 для р 77 и 105 для р27эр, для одинаковых условий? всегда 11-12км высота и скорость больше 2 махов?

[Chizh]

По буклетам вопрос точно не ко мне.

[TotenDead]

6 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

По буклетам вопрос точно не ко мне.

Каких данных не хватает, чтоб добавить ботам 77-1?

[GGTharos]

Fuel mass and if possible rocket motor configuration and burn time.

[TotenDead]

58 минут назад, GGTharos сказал:

Fuel mass and if possible rocket motor configuration and burn time.

У нас разве есть данные по Р-77 и амрааму? Это не издевка, я просто не в курсе и не встречал такой информации (как минимум массу топлива) по этим ракетам. Касательно времени горения - ну тут документация не является определяющим фактором: вспомним изменения Р-27

Edited July 30, 2021 by TotenDead

[GGTharos]

I think it is a fair question.

 

Here's what we have:

 

R-77:  Fuel mass from same documentation as R-27

AIM-120A/B/C1-5:  A document that lists the explosive content of ammunition for the purposes of safe storage and fire-fighting lists the propellant masses for those missiles.   Also for AIM7/9/54, certain SAMs I think and some AGMs as well.   The rocket propellant mass is listed separately from warheads etc.

 

We have had this documentation for years now, first posted here in this thread, but I do not recall by who.

 

The weaknesses in this documentation is that the burning time, and especially for multiple-grain configuration is not known, only the total mass.  But it reduces guessing by a lot - now you only have to guess ISP and burn time for each propellant grain, and there are some basic rules for those, including the fraction of boost:sustain grain.

[Chizh]

9 часов назад, TotenDead сказал:

Каких данных не хватает, чтоб добавить ботам 77-1?

На 77-1 не хватает всего.

[Hoarfrost]

18 часов назад, GGTharos сказал:

I think it is a fair question.

 

Here's what we have:

 

R-77:  Fuel mass from same documentation as R-27

AIM-120A/B/C1-5:  A document that lists the explosive content of ammunition for the purposes of safe storage and fire-fighting lists the propellant masses for those missiles.   Also for AIM7/9/54, certain SAMs I think and some AGMs as well.   The rocket propellant mass is listed separately from warheads etc.

 

We have had this documentation for years now, first posted here in this thread, but I do not recall by who.

 

The weaknesses in this documentation is that the burning time, and especially for multiple-grain configuration is not known, only the total mass.  But it reduces guessing by a lot - now you only have to guess ISP and burn time for each propellant grain, and there are some basic rules for those, including the fraction of boost:sustain grain.

and what does this documentation say about the loft?

 

[GGTharos]

That particular documentation has nothing at all to do with the missile's flight physics, it is fire/explosion safety documentation.  The one for the R-77, I don't know but I assume it doesn't say much.

It's the weapons employment manuals for the F-15 and F-16 which specify that the AIM-120 will loft (as well as AIM-7MH and later, although the loft is different from that of the AIM-120 AFAIK).

[Hoarfrost]

31.07.2021 в 21:46, GGTharos сказал:

That particular documentation has nothing at all to do with the missile's flight physics, it is fire/explosion safety documentation.  The one for the R-77, I don't know but I assume it doesn't say much.

It's the weapons employment manuals for the F-15 and F-16 which specify that the AIM-120 will loft (as well as AIM-7MH and later, although the loft is different from that of the AIM-120 AFAIK).

Ну здесь только руководство по су 30 сможет помочь, или каком ни будь  экспортном борту. А вы GGTharos , как считаете есть лофт у р77? 

 

[GGTharos]

Unfortunately I don't have such a document

 

As for what I think, this missile is new enough where lofting would be a 'standard feature' for most AAMs (It had already been a feature of SAMs).   It was a surprise to me to hear that it does not loft.

[Jack1nthecrack]

Are there any charts regarding the Meteor missile? Will it be based on pure fantasy?

[Hoarfrost]

3 часа назад, GGTharos сказал:

Unfortunately I don't have such a document

 

As for what I think, this missile is new enough where lofting would be a 'standard feature' for most AAMs (It had already been a feature of SAMs).   It was a surprise to me to hear that it does not loft.

Да для вас не одного было это неожиданностью, много людей было удивлено что ED считает что у р77 нет лофта. Тем более обещали весной сделать. 

[Vladimir_V_T]

30.07.2021 в 22:36, bunik сказал:

а вот это самое "дерганье" на видео - это ракета на НЛО наводится? я чет не пойму траекторию цели, для перехвата которой такие маневры нужны?

Может цель отбрасывает диполи и ракета на них соблазняется? Немного похоже.

[nighthawk2174]

5 hours ago, Jack1nthecrack said:

Are there any charts regarding the Meteor missile? Will it be based on pure fantasy?

I know there are some very detailed studies out there from various groups about the most probable inner workings of the meteor.  Its as close as were going to get to the actual stats for at least 40 years.

[GGTharos]

9 hours ago, Jack1nthecrack said:

Are there any charts regarding the Meteor missile? Will it be based on pure fantasy?

 

No, but as long as certain data and science is available it can be based on a well educated estimate.

One of he first page google results:  https://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/xtr9/p516901.pdf

[Max1mus]

18 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

No, but as long as certain data and science is available it can be based on a well educated estimate.

One of he first page google results:  https://cradpdf.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/PDFS/xtr9/p516901.pdf

Which DRFM jamming modes can interrupt the datalink of that missile? What happens when the fighter AESA looses track for 20 seconds and then finds the target again? What happens if it is launched from slow speed? What are the seeker gimbals? What is the seeker range, and how does that change against DRFM jammers?

[GGTharos]

14 hours ago, Max1mus said:

Which DRFM jamming modes can interrupt the datalink of that missile?

 

None.  Guess why.

 

14 hours ago, Max1mus said:

What happens when the fighter AESA looses track for 20 seconds and then finds the target again?

 

Does it?   Can it?   But anyway it's a MESA that we'll get, AFAIK.   And what do you think happens anyway?

 

14 hours ago, Max1mus said:

What happens if it is launched from slow speed? What are the seeker gimbals? What is the seeker range, and how does that change against DRFM jammers?

 

Same thing that happens with any other missile ... it speeds up.  The gimbals can be reasonably guessed at to be 50-60 degrees, seeker range can be the same as the 120 and I'm not sure what your obsession with DRFM jammers is, because you're not in danger of being equipped with one.

[Max1mus]

59 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

None.  Guess why.

 

 

Does it?   Can it?   But anyway it's a MESA that we'll get, AFAIK.   And what do you think happens anyway?

 

 

Same thing that happens with any other missile ... it speeds up.  The gimbals can be reasonably guessed at to be 50-60 degrees, seeker range can be the same as the 120 and I'm not sure what your obsession with DRFM jammers is, because you're not in danger of being equipped with one.

That sort of stuff is the environment the missile works in. Heavily jammed. And the meteor can only be fired from Eurofighters with AESA radars.

Its a rhethorical question, because all that info that drives 4++ and 5th gen combat, is not public. Thus a realistic implementation of Meteor in DCS is not possible.

Unless you want to just point and click 1980s MiGs. But might aswell shoot down airliners then, the level of resistance is about the same. Infact, the time difference between an older F-16 with sidewinders with and the BF-109 is lower, than the time difference between the Meteor and the introduction of the DCS red aircraft.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Max1mus

[GGTharos]

43 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

And the meteor can only be fired from Eurofighters with AESA radars.

 

A MESA can generate the required signals just as well.

 

43 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

Its a rhethorical question, because all that info that drives 4++ and 5th gen combat, is not public. Thus a realistic implementation of Meteor in DCS is not possible.

 

I think we can get pretty close.   There are no DRFM jammers in game, no one's implementing DRFM capability or capability against that in AMRAAM or other modern missiles, including SAMs in DCS.  In DCS, ECM is generic.  That's all there is.

 

43 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

Unless you want to just point and click 1980s MiGs.

 

I don't have a problem with that.  Sometimes that's how the mission is.

 

43 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

Infact, the time difference between an older F-16 with sidewinders with and the BF-109 is lower, than the time difference between the Meteor and the introduction of the DCS red aircraft.

 

Splitting hairs here.  I'm not concerned with any type of balance.   If the missile gets in the game, I'd like to see it modeled as close to IRL that we can get as possible.  For online gaming the mission maker can remove the METEOR from inventory.

Edited August 4, 2021 by GGTharos