Realistic route to target distances

[Megagoth1702]

Hey guys,

 

I am currently tinkering around on a mission where A-10s have to get to a specific point in order to get their tasking. Usual stuff.

 

Now what I am wondering is - what would be realistic distances from "get task location" to "task location"?

 

I am no big fan of seriuos missions where everything is within 10-20nm, I like a nice, long route. But what if that is completely unrealistic?

 

Currently most of my objectives are 20-50nautical miles away, flying there never takes more than 15 minutes, so I dont see a big deal in this. But is this realistic?

 

Thanks a lot in advance folks!

[Speedbrake]

That really depends on how close to the FEBA your base is if you are taking off at the start of the mission. If you are in the air at the start, it is a different story. Personally I don;t see a problem with a target that is about 15-20 minutes away from a runway start. The simulation world has to be a condensed arenna.

[Megagoth1702]

It's 10 min to IP, then from there 10-15 min to each task.

[Eddie]

10 minutes, so 60 miles from home plate, it's fine for a COIN scenario (any distance is fine for COIN, although you'd be out of the threat area is possible).

 

 

For conventional operations however it's a bit too close for comfort, you're not far outside the reach of long range MLRS systems etc. But that said, it's not unrealistic per-se as long as you're based outside of hostile artillery range.

 

10-15 minutes from IP to target though, unless that is a typo that is way too far for an IP to target run in.

[GGTharos]

In reality you might be flying a couple hours to get to your station, and you may have to stay on station for 4 hours.

 

In the realities of playing a game, you probably don't want this, so the real question here is: Who are you designing the mission for?

 

There is definitely a market for missions with fairly long flight distances, and there is a bigger market for missions that get you into action very quickly ... and there's everything in-between.

 

 

I am no big fan of seriuos missions where everything is within 10-20nm, I like a nice, long route. But what if that is completely unrealistic?

 

Currently most of my objectives are 20-50nautical miles away, flying there never takes more than 15 minutes, so I dont see a big deal in this. But is this realistic?

 

Thanks a lot in advance folks!

[arteedecco]

Hmmm... this thread and the ideas posed by GGTharos made me remember Flight Sim, where there was no bombing, yet some of the missions were fun. In other words, sometimes the flying of the mission is fun, not just the blasting.

 

There was a mission in the FSX Accelerator Pack where you were in a damaged F18 returning to the carrier, flying off the wing of your flight lead in IMC... at night.... and you had to land on a carrier... yikes! (but challenging and FUN!).

 

So having longer enroute to IP could be fun depending upon how it's used. For instance, flying up a canyon NOE to the IP is challenging and fun... you could even place occasional (mild) AA threats to keep things dicy, though you probably wouldn't want to put anything bad enough out there to shoot your players down unless they were stupid... so as to avoid player frustration at having long periods of doing nothing while enroute to the action only to get wasted unexpectedly.

 

Q: Does anyone know if it is possible in the ME to add areas of different cloud cover and other meteorological conditions? How bout through the new scripting interface where you can create polygon shapes for areas?

 

The idea I had, based upon the original post, was to have an enroute and loiter in the "soup" (IMC) and then have a hole or scattered layer to get below near the target area. This would make the enroute flying more challenging and fun and not just seem like... takeoff... a/p "ON"..... zzzzzz.

[Skall]

Excuse my ignorance but I'm pretty new to all this military jargon. What's IP? Is that initial point? Ingress point? And what is a COIN scenario?

 

And on the subject of ingress points, how far do they tend to be from the target?

[Exorcet]

In the realities of playing a game, you probably don't want this

You should probably try it at least once though. I think it makes things more fun. Taking off just to point the nose at the ground and start the guns blazing just feels silly.

 

An important part of mission building for long missions is to really flesh out the ingress/egress. Messages from other forces in combat, or from your wingman, flying over something interesting (like a small battle, or a crash site).

 

You can even make things interactive now that DCS allows you to add custom radio options.

 

As an example, I've working on a mission where an A-10 goes to strike an insurgent training camp. There are some friendly ground forces in the area that have requested the strike. They're chatting with the pilot on the way in relaying information like the number of targets, type of vehicles, etc. With random triggers I can make this different every time.

 

A mission like that is more memorable than one that has you take off and start shooting at things implausibly close to your base.

[Eight Ball]

Excuse my ignorance but I'm pretty new to all this military jargon. What's IP? Is that initial point? Ingress point? And what is a COIN scenario?

 

IP = Initial Point

 

COIN = COunter INsurgency

[Skall]

Thanks!

 

IP = Initial Point

 

COIN = COunter INsurgency

[Rusty_M]

 

Q: Does anyone know if it is possible in the ME to add areas of different cloud cover and other meteorological conditions? How bout through the new scripting interface where you can create polygon shapes for areas?

 

The idea I had, based upon the original post, was to have an enroute and loiter in the "soup" (IMC) and then have a hole or scattered layer to get below near the target area. This would make the enroute flying more challenging and fun and not just seem like... takeoff... a/p "ON"..... zzzzzz.

 

Well there is the dynamic weather system. It eats some frames, and the options in the ME aren't very good, but someone on this forum somewhere figured out the LUA scripting for it and was able to make variable wind and cloud conditions.

[Yurgon]

[...] though you probably wouldn't want to put anything bad enough out there to shoot your players down unless they were stupid... so as to avoid player frustration at having long periods of doing nothing while enroute to the action only to get wasted unexpectedly.

 

I like that idea, and I've got a good example of a mission that gets players frustrated easily: "On the other side", mission #8 of the BS "Deployment" campaign. Right after take-off it's a long climb up the mountains. The route leads through some valleys and towards the crest line it can get a bit challenging to make it to the other side.

 

When the action starts, I used to get blown out of the sky by a couple of extra angry Hinds. Flying the mission like that once or twice is fun, but it got really frustrating when I couldn't nail the Hinds even in the fifth attempt - and each time there was this 20+ minute flight all the way to the target area.

 

In my first playthrough of the campaign, I finally edited the mission to start right in front of the action (and with reduced fuel load to account for the long flight that didn't take place now). That attempt, I nailed the mission, but it didn't feel quite right. Would have been a lot more fun without the Hinds in the first place.

[WildBillKelsoe]

According to A-10 warthog in action picture book, a realistic IP to target is 40 nautical.

Edited December 1, 2012 by WildBillKelsoe

[Yurgon]

According to A-10 warthog in action picture book, a realistic IP to target is 40 nautical.

 

Now that is far. At 40nm (and 5000ft), it would be next to impossible to spot anything smaller than an aircraft carrier.

 

According to Hog Basics: RAF Bentwaters Tactics Guide, what Eddie said and pretty much every other source available to mankind, an IP would be a lot closer to the target, possibly in the 5-10nm range (might be a bit wrong here, but should be close enough).

 

What's the context of that document? Could it use a different lingo and/or refer to something else by "IP"?

[GGTharos]

The context seems to be fulda gap ... ie. attacking a whole bunch of tanks under an umbrella of SA-6/10/11/15/19

[Megagoth1702]

Thanks for all the input guys.

[Eihort]

The context seems to be fulda gap ... ie. attacking a whole bunch of tanks under an umbrella of SA-6/10/11/15/19

 

Then I'll take wall to wall Mavs AND A HEAP OF PRAYERS. oh god... the missiles.....

[WildBillKelsoe]

the problem with a very long route, is that weapons can have all sorts of malfunction. I've read on numerous occasions that in Allied Force, A-10 pilots had icing on maverick seeker heads guns malfunctioned, stores hung,etc.. Largely because of meteo changes with altitude and sometimes they couldn't find targets because of INU drift. AFACs like F-15's and Predators on scene had to talk on.