Missile Dynamics - A discussion

[104th_Cobra]

Normally, in a MiG-29, I'll never try to notch. Maintaining corner speed and maneuvering out of the missiles plane, guiding the launched SARH with the target inside of radar gimbal; change altitude and launch at maximum energy state, dragging the incoming missiles again to the terrain clutter. Go beneath the F-15 radar and stick it in the belly. Or not. :)

 

If the incoming ARH missiles were launched inside 20 km, You're probably in trouble :)

 

After searching the forum and read a little, I realize I didn't want to use the term "barrel roll". It seems the correct term is "cranking". Cranking, varying altitude from 5000 m to 8000 m ASL, while maintaining lock and guiding a launched missile, using the SPO-15 to beware of distances.

 

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5076546/bvr_aim120c_r27er.acmi

 

I don't remember what is inside this track, as I have two tracks with R-27ER and I'm right now on Linux. DCSW version 1.2.2.7570, against AI F-15C.

 

Edit:

Nice, it installed with Wine. And in this track I'm with a Su-27.

 

It seems to me, right now and compared with FC2, the missiles are leading more.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5076546/bvr_aim120c_r27r.acmi

Edited January 3, 2013 by Xpto

[GGTharos]

FC1 was an abomination. But when you GG take RL tactics or RL employment of missiles and try and compare FC's behaviour as an equality for that behaviour it makes me cringe.

 

What else would you like me to compare it to?

 

Firstly RL cheapshots are already in MPRF to HPRF active stage when they are dropped so with regards to that I think you're confused.

 

No, cheapshots can happen at any stage.

 

Never mind the fact that this transition is not available in DCS right now ... for any missile. We don't want to go into how screwed the HPRF-only SARH's would be, right?

 

While maddogs have a hugely reduced Pk because it requires the target to continue approx. on its current path, if the target makes any evasive manuevers then the chance of the target being in the missiles basket at active stage is greatly reduced.

 

Maddogs are meant to be launched when you can see your bandit. Sometimes you can't see him because he's hiding in visual clutter, but he's close enough. If you spot his shadow, you could shoot.

 

If any of this were true in FC then we'd be on track for something special, unfortunately non of it is true, shots that are dropped mid command stage in FC have a chance of acquiring targets which have made extensively hard maneuvers to be nowhere near the missiles basket.

 

Shot that will be dropped mid-command with INS will still go for you, and if the carrier radar is correctly implemented you might find your ability to get out of the way a little more difficult than you think.

[Frostie]

 

 

No, cheapshots can happen at any stage.

 

Shot that will be dropped mid-command with INS will still go for you, and if the carrier radar is correctly implemented you might find your ability to get out of the way a little more difficult than you think.

 

Regardless of how you see it a cheapshot call as a tactic is between PRF active stages if you want to call it during command stage then the Pk is greatly reduced just ask the RAF, INS or not what it doesn't have is a radar lock so evasive maneuvers before active stage work in RL but they don't in FC. Simple.

Never mind the fact that this transition is not available in DCS right now ... for any missile. We don't want to go into how screwed the HPRF-only SARH's would be, right?

Why not and while we're at it we can discuss how effective the SARH's might become in FC with INS added instead of stupidly losing track while the launch aircraft radar is still locked as it does now.

[GGTharos]

Regardless of how you see it a cheapshot call as a tactic is between PRF active stages if you want to call it during command stage then the Pk is greatly reduced just ask the RAF, INS or not what it doesn't have is a radar lock so evasive maneuvers before active stage work in RL but they don't in FC. Simple.

 

Yes. It's Pk is halved ... launching a 120 without any MCU's whatsoever gives it the same Pk as a guided sparrow. That is still not a maddog. That is what the UK found out, and that Pk is a lot worse in FC3 when you drop the target while the missile's still boosting for orbit. In FC2 the Pk also dropped, but unfortunately no one collected stats. What is certain is that those missiles did not always pick up a target - the majority of the time they would fail to do so.

 

Why not and while we're at it we can discuss how effective the SARH's might become in FC with INS added instead of stupidly losing track while the launch aircraft radar is still locked as it does now.

The INS won't do as much for you as you might be thinking in this case - or more specifically, I don't believe INS will fix what you are experiencing. I'm pretty convinced that there is a different issue here, and I've reported it.

[Cali]

It's obvious that some people want the 120/F-15 dumbed down from what it already is. So what if it's the king of BVR, it shouldn't be because of other untested aircraft/weapons has this and maybe it is better.

[lunaticfringe]

I think your obsession of red air/eastVwest is getting the better of you.

 

Apparently you missed the word "every"; as in, all emitters, regardless of type and/or side. To that I'd say, I think your obsession with a supposition of my bias is getting the better of your reading comprehension.

 

Moving on.

 

Why not and while we're at it we can discuss how effective the SARH's might become in FC with INS added instead of stupidly losing track while the launch aircraft radar is still locked as it does now.

 

See, HERE is the argument that should be had, with the charge directed towards ED to put things to rest. The model's integration of SARH/ARH shooter-provisioned homing is what is truly deserving of change. INS is a conceptual band-aid. Until this aspect is represented correctly, and the pilot is required to fight the correct emitter at the correct time, complaining about the application of tactics is a moot exercise.

 

It's the whole ball of wax.

[winchesterdelta1]

so delta... what tactic do you recomend?

i would love to hear how do manage 8amraams on you...

 

honestly 1vs1 how do u do it?

 

Why fly 1vs1 if you can fly with friends online against more pilots. :) My tactic is to use myself or the wingman as bait and than you hit them from there 3 or 9 o'clock. Does not work alway's. And this explanation is a little simplified. And like GG say's it requires pachience to fight a F-15 with 8 AMRAAM's or even with 2 AMRAAM's.

I learned it the hard way. And if i fly 1vs1 i try to let them waste all their missiles.

Edited January 4, 2013 by winchesterdelta1

[Frostie]

It's obvious that some people want the 120/F-15 dumbed down from what it already is. So what if it's the king of BVR, it shouldn't be because of other untested aircraft/weapons has this and maybe it is better.

I don't want the 120 dumbed down or the 77 for that matter, I know full well that when the parameters for a high Pk shot is good then these missiles shouldn't fail as much as they do in FC.

 

What I don't like is how in RL a dropped shot mid course well before active has its Pk reduced because of the chance of target maneuvers, in other words if the target holds its course then Pk will be the same as if the missile was kept to active because the INS will take it to that position, but if the target moves depending on the time till active then there is not going to be a Pk because if the time was enough and the maneuvers were good enough the target will not be there, its 10deg seeker won't see anything, while in FC this is based on a random figure there is no defense against a dropped shot other than FC's random event. So tactics against this sort of shooter is weighted to a random figure, thanks but no thanks this is what makes a mockery of F-15 pilots claiming RL superiority is the same in FC, the RL 120 can't scan 120 degress in 1 second.

 

When used correctly the F-15 in FC takes a great deal of skill and understanding to make the kills and the best VP's have a bag full of this and show it. But for the novice the idea of the F-15 owns the BVR stage is based on shoot and run which FC lets them get away with too many times, just how random does it become when 8 actives have been spammed.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Frostie

[Cali]

I get what you are saying. It's been said before that the missiles are constantly getting worked on. Hopefully when the next patch comes out, it'll fix some of the things wrong with them. Like the ER having shorter legs then the 120. Only thing we can do is hope that some other things get fixed as well, fingers crossed.

 

GG already said that people that spam and don't know how to use the 15 correctly can be killed easily. There is nothing we can do about spamming it's part of the game. We have been dealing with this for how long? 8+ years, DCS Fighter isn't gonna change anything either.

 

Another thing, we really don't know much about these missiles, can the AIM-120 do a scan like that.....I don't know. There are too many things secret about them that we will never know. Same with ECM and other things of that nature. A lot of these stuff is a educated guess on how it works, that's the best we'll have. We have numbers to kinda go by, as far as missiles fired and hit, but not the hardcore data that we want and need.

 

From the sound of things in FC3 it's better then FC1 & 2, when ET's where fired from 15-20 miles with no lock, 120's fired from 50+ miles and with the crazy scan zones. ER's losing the target when the target is only 4-5 miles away, AIM-7's doing the boomerang. I haven't played FC3 yet and haven't even played FC2 in over a year, so I have forgotten a lot of things.

[GGTharos]

What I don't like is how in RL a dropped shot mid course well before active has its Pk reduced because of the chance of target maneuvers,

 

Herein lies the problem ... the Pk drops, yes. It doesn't become zero, which is exactly the case for FC2 - the Pk drops but doesn't become zero. The UK had no MCU's whatsoever, and the Pk when using the missile this way (launched on INS from the rail) was halved (yep, the 120 was found to have about double the Pk of a sparrow).

 

As you can probably reason, dropping something 'mid-shot' should have a Pk somewhere inbetween. The overall Pk IN GAME with stats as collected by Case for AMRAAMs is 0.3. That is about equivalent to a 120 with INS-only guidance to terminal.

 

In other words, while the implementation is not correct at the time, you also have nothing to complain about with respect to Pk.

 

because if the time was enough and the maneuvers were good enough the target will not be there, its 10deg seeker won't see anything,

 

And again, you have no guarantees of moving out of the way. 10 deg is 1700m at 10km, and even if the seeker activated that late, it can sweep a LOT of space to try and find you. These seekers don't just stare straight ahead, they do implement a search pattern. This is a cheapshot, not a maddog.

 

while in FC this is based on a random figure there is no defense against a dropped shot other than FC's random event.

 

It wasn't random at all. That you might be picked up was random-ish, but the missile in FC implements a search pattern. The search pattern chosen was a sinple spiral scan of the entire gimbal space, since the missile has no memory (INS!) and thus no predictive capability. As such, the scan in FC2 was also fairly slow as compared to FC1 where it really was quite attrocious and operated when launching as maddog. Sometimes you'd end up falling inside the scan pattern at the right time, sometimes not. If you wanted to ensure that you would not be picked up, you needed to be in or near the notch, as you should be when the missile is guided.

 

So tactics against this sort of shooter is weighted to a random figure, thanks but no thanks this is what makes a mockery of F-15 pilots claiming RL superiority is the same in FC, the RL 120 can't scan 120 degress in 1 second.

 

Nor did it in FC2. It did some pretty 'eep' things in FC1 (but still not one second). In FC2 this scan was much, much slower.

 

When used correctly the F-15 in FC takes a great deal of skill and understanding to make the kills and the best VP's have a bag full of this and show it. But for the novice the idea of the F-15 owns the BVR stage is based on shoot and run which FC lets them get away with too many times, just how random does it become when 8 actives have been spammed.

 

Weapons are made to be more and more simple to employ. Yes, it takes skill - all missile work takes skill. But some of them make things a lot easier for you.

 

And finally, one more thing: In RL a shot can't be 'dropped mid-shot' very easily as compared to LOMAC. Indeed, a key part of avionics is missing from the aircraft when it comes to AMRAAM employment, never mind missile brains. You could basically forget about 'dissapearing', notches and other fun things unless you tried really, really hard ... non of that 'flip in this direction for a moment and poof' stuff that we see in FC.

[X-man]

As you can probably reason, dropping something 'mid-shot' should have a Pk somewhere inbetween. The overall Pk IN GAME with stats as collected by Case for AMRAAMs is 0.3. That is about equivalent to a 120 with INS-only guidance to terminal.

 

In other words, while the implementation is not correct at the time, you also have nothing to complain about with respect to Pk.

 

Comparing Case' Pk stats with RL is pointless because you have no knowledge of how it was employed.

[Cali]

Comparing Case' Pk stats with RL is pointless because you have no knowledge of how it was employed.

 

I agree, but we don't know how the RL missiles were employed also. Of course we know they weren't used like how they are in FC2/3. They have stricter ROE in RL. In game people fired them from 40+ miles, dropped lock when they got fired on in return, cause they automatically thought they would die if they didn't go defensive. Case's Pk stats didn't mean anything compared to RL missiles. It just showed what they were in game. Some had higher Pk shots because they knew how to use their weapons, while others had no clue.

[GGTharos]

It isn't pointless at all. In RL the Pk includes all missiles launched in combat, without rejecting for example, shots in poor parameters, shots that were mission but not aircraft kills, shots that failed because of missile or other malfunction.

 

Same deal with Case's stats, except that missile malfunctions do not exist.

 

And while you cannot compare Pk under the same circumstances, you can definitely tell that the behaviour that was complained about doesn't seem to be helping the actives much.

 

Comparing Case' Pk stats with RL is pointless because you have no knowledge of how it was employed.

[X-man]

Most missiles that are trashed online is due to people extending. This trashes the missile no matter what seeker logic it has. If you wanna go by a Pk of 0.3 on online servers, keep this in mind.

 

You could have a perfect seeker and flight dynamics, but you'd need a Saturn V rocket to increase the Pk online to RL numbers ( 0.6-0.8 ) :P

[GGTharos]

Oh, you're right. Putting that in the bug tracker. Saturn V for my AIM-120 :P

 

Yes, I do keep all this stuff in mind. But keep in mind that a lot of people also intercept missiles with their aircraft. Somewhere in there things may or may not even out.

 

Of course it'd be nice to write an analysis tool to determine what kind of miss was experienced by the missile, but that isn't so simple ...

[Pilotasso]

Yes, Tornadoes F3 standard did not had any mid course updates, they relied on plotted course with target predicted position and heading at launch. It works ok for bomber intercepts for which it was designed for because those targets dont chage their courses like fighters do.

AIM 120's currently still do this if the launchers updates cease for some reason, and since its is normal behaviour for players speed torwards their opposition at max burners, I too think it is not unrelistic for poeple get caught from time to time. This is also true for R-77's but I dont see anyone complain about them. :)

[Frostie]

Herein lies the problem ... the Pk drops, yes. It doesn't become zero, which is exactly the case for FC2 - the Pk drops but doesn't become zero. The UK had no MCU's whatsoever, and the Pk when using the missile this way (launched on INS from the rail) was halved (yep, the 120 was found to have about double the Pk of a sparrow).

 

As you can probably reason, dropping something 'mid-shot' should have a Pk somewhere inbetween. The overall Pk IN GAME with stats as collected by Case for AMRAAMs is 0.3. That is about equivalent to a 120 with INS-only guidance to terminal.

 

In other words, while the implementation is not correct at the time, you also have nothing to complain about with respect to Pk.

 

And again, you have no guarantees of moving out of the way. 10 deg is 1700m at 10km, and even if the seeker activated that late, it can sweep a LOT of space to try and find you. These seekers don't just stare straight ahead, they do implement a search pattern. This is a cheapshot, not a maddog.

 

 

Those 120's fired off the rail by BAe without MCU's and only the initial launch parameters had a lower Pk than Skyflash (AIM-7).

 

This was in a contolled environment against drones that had typical set engagement parameters, head on, low aspect, high aspect and probably alternating path target. To achieve a less than 0.3 Pk against such easy targets doesn't say much for the missiles INS dependency even when the target is still travelling to the projected spot. This Pk is based on missiles hit under a controlled setting it's a rudimentary figure like most Pk values based on the scene set and opposition faced. Take the AIM-7 in GW1 for example, it had an absolute field day against the Iraqi's who didn't have clue or didn't know how to switch on their RWR's, or both.

 

Now with this in mind and the fact that these missiles fired without MCU's were fired in a controlled environment against drones, a lower Pk than 0.3 is only going to get worse, much worse against an aggressive top line enemy with an advanced, foreign defence system and CM's.

 

You can't possibly reason that a Pk of a dropped mid command stage missile is going to be such and such because it achieved x.xx amount against drones off the rail without MCU's.

 

When talking different stages of a missiles flight then you have to ignore Pk the only fact you have to look at is the only thing that matters here and that is the ARH's basket, how does an ARH reach the target.

 

1. Firstly it receives info from the shooter before it leaves the rail this is INS based, and gives the missile a projected position to be in to acquire the target in its basket, which incidently the missile will centre itself on the projected target spot so scanning boresighted is what should intially happen at the active stage.

 

2. After launch the missile follows its launch parameters which if at long range will follow an ideal loft trajectory or if at short range will go immediately to target. Now during this command stage the missile will receive updates from the shooters radar of any adjustments the target has made.

(This is where FC falls flat, players shooting ARH can drop the lock and run not needing to deliver vital info to their missile as their aggressive foe who most likely knows through experience that he's being shot at and now makes defensive moves to counter an early exit by the shooter. It does work but the randomness I see is because the seeker starts scanning as soon as the lock is dropped)

 

3. Having received the required updates from the shooter the missile then closes to Terminal Active stage at about 10km range where it's own radar now stares at the basket where it has projected the target to be. Finding him and now a 90%Pk is inevitable. Except for one issue which is not avaliable in FC, jamming, the weak strength of the ARH still needs to burn through the jammer and if this is a modern jammer then deception can cause much harm to that ARH's chances, but with a noise jammer it is only a matter of time before burn through occurs then the 90%Pk takes effect. If the missile is slow then it can be defeated but if it was launched at a closer range then impact is ineviatable.

(With FC besides the ECM, there is the issue of acquiring, the missile should be looking at its last known update projection this means boresighted on that location with its 10 degree scan, not arriving and acquiring immediately -60 degrees. The problem is the missile is always scanning even before reaching projected active stage, so it will acquire anything it can after it ahas been dropped. If it reached the projected spot and started scanning while the bandit was 2000m below that altitude the bandit would slip right out of the missiles entire 110degree gimbals within 1 or 2 seconds.)

Edited January 4, 2013 by Frostie

[Pilotasso]

Frostie, the 0.3 PK GG mentioned is the total PK gathered from Cases stats ingame, I am not following your logic of using that value as a starting point to extrapolate PK of missiles without MCU IRL.

 

 

Also, in GW1 Iraquis had ELINT on Iranian planes, they knew when there were F-14's inbond (part of the reason why Tomcats failed to score through the war or during no fly zone patrols), but no electronic signature on F-15's or able tell them appart from the background mess of allied aircraft. BVR fights were very rare. In most cases they occured WVR, by the time they knew they were being attacked by it was already too late. I think you completely underestimated the Iraqis experience.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Pilotasso

[Frostie]

Frostie, the 0.3 PK GG mentioned is the total PK gathered from Cases stats ingame, I am not following your logic of using that value as a starting point to extrapolate PK of missiles without MCU IRL.

GG wrote:The UK had no MCU's whatsoever, and the Pk when using the missile this way (launched on INS from the rail) was halved (yep, the 120 was found to have about double the Pk of a sparrow).

 

As you can probably reason, dropping something 'mid-shot' should have a Pk somewhere inbetween. The overall Pk IN GAMEwith stats as collected by Case for AMRAAMs is 0.3. That is about equivalent to a 120 with INS-only guidance to terminal.

 

Also, in GW1 Iraquis had ELINT on Iranian planes, they knew when there were F-14's inbond (part of the reason why Tomcats failed to score through the war or during no fly zone patrols), but no electronic signature on F-15's or able tell them appart from the background mess of allied aircraft. BVR fights were very rare. In most cases they occured WVR, by the time they knew they were being attacked by it was already too late. I think you completely underestimated the Iraqis experience.

No, I just think you took me saying about the Iraqis not turning their RWRs on too seriously. The general feeling was that the AIM-7 behaved well over and above expected performance and there is no clear understanding how.

[Cali]

BVR fights were very rare. In most cases they occured WVR, by the time they knew they were being attacked by it was already too late. I think you completely underestimated the Iraqis experience.

 

A lot of the times they had to get a vis ID on the target from what I have read.

[Kula66]

I'm just so pleased to see the terrible FC2 hi-lo/lo-hi missile ranges start to reflect the physics! :)

[Cali]

I'm just so pleased to see the terrible FC2 hi-lo/lo-hi missile ranges start to reflect the physics! :)

 

Yeah that was annoying.

[Kula66]

Although twice now I have been shot down by my wingman with 120s firing from behind me ... so much for a smart missile! Is the arming mechanism linked to the locked target?

[Pyroflash]

Although twice now I have been shot down by my wingman with 120s firing from behind me ... so much for a smart missile! Is the arming mechanism linked to the locked target?

 

If your wingman drops lock before the missile goes active, there is a really good chance that it will pick up the first target within its view range. If that happens to be you, well, I hope you are good at defensive BFM :D

[Kula66]

... well, I hope you are good at defensive BFM :D

 

Its more a "Fox 3 ... boom!" :( My BFM isn't that good!