Payware Models for DCSW (ONLY External 3D Models ! )

[Mainstay]

Can i fly it? yes then i will pay if not then i wont. And John no offence but if you wanna get paid for your external models you should partner up with ED and send them the bill. Why should we (the customers) have to pay for anything else then what we can fly or some new terrain. Sorry John but even though i respect you modelers alot its not the customer that should pull the wallet here. I suggest we all ring the doorbel on the ED office and let them buy all the better 3d models.

[Grimes]

I question if johnX meant 100$ per USER to buy the model for the sim (like a module) vs he would sell the use of the model for 100$ to get put into a model pack or sold to ED...

 

Moa the difference between the two is that the price tag of Turbosquid models gives you access to the actual 3D mesh of the model. Its not going to be an .edm with the necessary LUA files to add the object into the sim. Aside from maybe releasing a texture template, nobody should expect to get source files from a payware model. A buyer just wants to add whatever they are buying into the game with all of the hard wore already done.

[john_X]

my models value the price i gave...what do you think i don't care, who wants one of my models knows what's the price. i'm not trying to get rich by this anyway, but i feel offensed by the arrogance people are showing here. and this because you don't know how much work we put into this. it's like Combatace said, work for a month for free, or in some cases even more..i wonder, how many of you downloaded and use Combatace's Su-33 and Su-27UB models, for example? How many of you donated at least one cent to this man, and how does he feel by making to this community such a big favor, for free? And how much time did he spent for this work? I'm sorry but here is not about me, it's about all the modders.

[Grimes]

my models value the price i gave...what do you think i don't care, who wants one of my models knows what's the price. i'm not trying to get rich by this anyway, but i feel offensed by the arrogance people are showing here. and this because you don't know how much work we put into this. it's like Combatace said, work for a month for free, or in some cases even more..i wonder, how many of you downloaded and use Combatace's Su-33 and Su-27UB models, for example? How many of you donated at least one cent to this man, and how does he feel by making to this community such a big favor, for free? And how much time did he spent for this work? I'm sorry but here is not about me, it's about all the modders.

 

No offense, but I don't exactly see masses of people screaming for free 3d models. I see lots of "yeah I'd pay if its (reason x)" type of comments. Maybe all of the arrogance is in another thread that I've missed or something.

 

It is an interesting dynamic that the difference between modding and payware is starting to creep up now. In the past many models were made explicitly as free "mods." There may have been some entrepreneurship by asking for donations to support the model makers website, or for other various reasons. Now with DCS more open to allow 3rd party developers it is a natural transition for some modders/hobbyists to transition into a more professional mindset for the services they provide for the game. Helping this evolve has been the amazing rise of independent game development and crowd source funding of projects over the last few years. Yes its almost always existed, but never to the extent as it does today. Combatace could correct me, but I fairly certain that little paypall link in his signature is a recent addition. The logic makes makes sense afterall. 3D modeling takes a ton of time and energy. Now with 3rd parties you have to wonder "why should so and so get payed for the same thing I am doing for free?" Hell, the announcement of 3rd party development has got me thinking of options to contribute with.

 

By all means try out different avenues of sale for your models. Just don't complain if people push back if they think the price is to high or don't like the quality, or some other excuse they come up with. Having an economy around DCS is new for everyone. There will be ups and downs along the way. Really the only question is how will it all work out. What sort of economy will surround DCS as more and more 3rd parties contribute and release content for this game. And can the relatively small community support it. I guess we will all find out over the next few years.

[upupandaway]

Turbosquid´s models are aimed at professionals as kind of a base material, no? They can modify and integrate them into their own product and make money off it, hence the price. With models for DCS:W it is a very different case, as Grimes explained.

 

I have always considered modding to be a sort of hobby that people have and enjoy. I like to draw and I love doing it without any financial interest - in fact, I think it´s even more fun this way. It´s cool if other people like it and comment on it. I think it´s unfair to blame this all on the users.

Edited December 12, 2012 by upupandaway

[Alfa]

john_X's price of $100 euros is staggeringly *cheap* for the amount of work that goes in to accurate models.

 

But not "staggeringly cheap" compared with the price of FC3 now is it?

 

Please go and have a look at Turbosquid (http://www.turbosquid.com/index.cfm) and then come back and we can discuss further. The high-quality aircraft models there run between $US 300 and $US 1399. You can get some bargins for less, but the good stuff starts at the amount john_x quotes. I've been licensing models from Turbosquid and the good models are much more expensive than perhaps you imagine

 

I have been a member of that place for some ten years, so I know what the price level is and how it works, but you clearly don't understand economics - a computer model is quite unique as a product in that there is no extra cost what so ever whether you produce 1 or 1000 units.

If you consider the amount of working hours you have spent on a model and then come to the result that the overall "production" cost is say $10,000, then to you can either put the model up for sale at that price hoping to sell a single copy or you can price it at $1 hoping to sell 10,000 copies - obviously neither of those extreme options are particulary realistic, so the trick is to find the right balance between price/sales.

 

John_X's price level obviously fails in that regard - how many people do you honestly think would pay over 3 times more($130) for a single aircraft model than they paid for the whole sim? vs. the amount of people who would be willing to pay say $20 - and in reflecting on this, which of the two price examples do you think would realistically provide the biggest end-profit?. I found John_X's price "announcement" amusing because it is out of touch with reality and because he shooting himself in the foot -will be making less than he could. But then thats of course its entirely up to him :) .

 

What I found most amusing though was the bit concerning the price difference between an external model and "external model(+cockpit)" :D .

I have been working on three 3D cockpit projects for about 3 years now.....and they are pretty far from completion, so I would say that I have some idea about the effort involved and if that should be reflected directly in the price, then his price examples should at the very least be the other way around :)

 

I'd happily pay $US 400 for a non-exclusive license for new cockpits (meaning you can sell them to everyone else too). I'm looking for MiG-29C and K; F-16C and F/A-18E&F.

 

Well I am glad to hear that - both in terms of the aircraft cockpits you are interested in as well as the price you are willing to pay for them(though I think you are in a very small minority) ;) .

[NRG-Vampire]

Price means nothing, higher price usually means more polygons but unfortunately not means an accurate and precise model :(

I hope this F-16 is not your model JohnX, because the airbrake axes and animations wrong just like with many other F-16 model :cry: but costs 400$

 

http://preview.turbosquid.com/Preview/2011/12/12__00_58_51/F_16_Rigged_08.jpg1bccfd50-b66a-4e06-a969-da579f6b1926Large.jpg

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/realistic-f-16-cockpit-3ds/643890

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3012/2649647491_c0c8e63e8c.jpg

http://pafwallpapers.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/f-16_atlis_arrows.jpg

 

This longbow costs 1000$ without animation !

http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/3d-model-boeing-ah-64d-apache-longbow/642300

 

I think perfect animations more infrequent than perfect shapes :cry:

[WarthogSmurf]

I like the idea of this poll but more if you could buy an upgrade pack like Bezl ones made. i wouldnt mind paying a bit for that. But paying for every single model is a bit :huh:.

 

So i would say yes if sold in packs

[john_X]

no, my model isn't on turbosquid, in fact i din't put the 3D model nowhere because i know there are many ways to ripp the 3d models from turbosquid, avoiding to pay it. don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining, i'm just saying that my work values that price. who has the money and wants to buy it, good for him, i'm selling it. but i'm not crying if i don't sell more than 1 mod. that's the right price for my work and that's the right price for combatace's su's and so on. as arguments i bring you many if you want..or, you may try to work 3D models too, so you can understand what's all about.

[alex1]

Selling a model for $100 - $150 for DCS is crazy and just bad business. I dosen't matter how much work and time it took to make, like everything else in the world its only worth what people are willing to pay for it, better to sell a 1000 units at $20 than none at $150....

[gunterlund21]

My feeling is the model itself is inherently a DCS issue. They need to stand by their product and make quality models. The models today are inferior on many aircraft because often they are ports from an older version of the game. They need to take responsibility to keep their models current with new releases they expect us to pay for.

Now with that said when outside developers create a new aircraft at A-10 levels, Im willing to pay for that aircraft ie Mig-21. But my expectation would be the same. High quality model with high quality cockpit, systems etc. I would not buy Mig-21 with any of those elements missing.

I also think that model building to replace current models should be a labor of love by people willing to contribute their time. Im not asking for a new model, people are offering it. I wont pay for a model a community member made otherwise we open up a whole new can or worms. There are issues surrounding community made items including compatibility with future releases etc. If I bought a model, my expectation would be for that community member to keep on top of his model for the life of DCS for free because all Im buying is something that looks good and has no other functionality.

[robert123456]

Well its complicated to answer. I understand how much work goes into making a detailed 3d model and i know its a lot. On the other hand i personally care only for flyable external models as long as they allow performance to be good.

 

I would pay for detailed 3d cockpit, but i would only pay for it if the cockpit was fully clickable too and thats something beyond the 3d modeler ground. Ed is releasing quality 3d cockpits so far, so i dont know how much room for improvement is there.

[Alfa]

Selling a model for $100 - $150 for DCS is crazy and just bad business. I dosen't matter how much work and time it took to make, like everything else in the world its only worth what people are willing to pay for it, better to sell a 1000 units at $20 than none at $150....

 

Exactly! :)

[SkateZilla]

Selling a model for $100 - $150 for DCS is crazy and just bad business. I dosen't matter how much work and time it took to make, like everything else in the world its only worth what people are willing to pay for it, better to sell a 1000 units at $20 than none at $150....

 

I dont think they meant a DCSW Model for $100,

 

I think they mean that he can sell the Source File (Max File, Textures, Materials etc) on Turbo Squid with Contracted Rights claim for other developers to use.

 

Turbosquid is a 3d marketplace, where 3d Artists can upload their models and sell them.

[HungaroJET]

I dont think they meant a DCSW Model for $100,

 

I think they mean that he can sell the Source File (Max File, Textures, Materials etc) on Turbo Squid with Contracted Rights claim for other developers to use.

 

Turbosquid is a 3d marketplace, where 3d Artists can upload their models and sell them.

 

Im sure JohnX talks about the same: 3D Source Files ($150)

 

The most expensive FULL modul was the A-10C ($60) as we know with fully clickable 6DOF cockpit, with high-det external aircraft model, and with Advanced Flight Model, etc.

I think not too many Team will able to sell a FULL DCS modul (much) with higher price than $80-100...but who knows :dunno:

...but for a 3D model (only) in EDM format for DCSW only ? max. $20-40 i guess (model with lods, animations and textures)...BeczL sold his FULL modul MiG-21Bis in pre-order: $20

...a MAX Model Source File is a different story :closedeyes:

Edited December 12, 2012 by HungaroJET

[badger66]

World belongs to ED , so its up to them to do the eye candy .

[Moa]

Usually to maximize profit you charge more than the average person will pay. This nets the 'early adopters'. As time goes on you drop the price. This gets those more and more reluctant to pay, but they see that they are getting '$150 value for $20'.

 

Apple does this (its enthusiasts and early adopters are screwed hard), Microsoft does this, ED does this (price drops to push sales come eventually).

 

I can't see why it would make sense for modders to start the bidding at a low price.

 

I've done a few freeware mods myself. It's nice to give to the community but then some people within it feel you should be grateful that they are using your mod. You are also expected to provide all sorts of support, even for non-mod related things, for free. This sux and is more work than fun.

 

What seems to be the theme is that people don't want to pay more than $20 (or thereabouts) for a 3D model. Fortunately modders are not only motivated by money, as for that amount very few mods would ever get made.

 

Paying money forces those that start a project to finish it (if they've taken pre-orders). Look at how many great projects have screenshots but never come to fruition. The money would help get some of them finished and we've have a lot more high-quality models than we do at present.

 

ED are working on improving the models to match the capabilities of modern GPU (that can handle a lot of polys and all sorts of shader effects), but there are plenty of aircraft they're unlikely to get around to (eg. anything by Saab, Aermacci, the Yugoslav aircraft, light trainers etc). The community is the likely source of these, but even then it won't get done without a better carrot than a few hundred sales at $20. You only need one fifth the sales at $100 to make the same money, and then you progressively drop the price to get more sales. *That* is basic good business :)

 

Edit: The MiG-21 module for $20 is fantastic value. That amount is a token of the effort and would never sustain a full-time commercial developer. The reason it is so cheap is that beczl would have done the mod anyway since he clearly has a passion for the aircraft. He's just making some 'pocket-money' on the side, and very good luck to him - he deserves it (in the past he has made many great models and given them to the community for free). But please don't confuse the $20 as being a realistic amount for companies that want to produce things commercially. Even though these hypothetical companies have smaller scope than ED, what they do often requires more work, since they have to discover and work around lots of things that ED can trivially change (since ED have the source code and the capability to make arbitrary changes as they see fit). Be very glad that you do great things for free and for small amounts like $20.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Moa
it's "its' not "it's" dammit! :)

[HungaroJET]

As BeczL mentioned earlier only the pre-order price was that cheap: $20

Price of the final version will higher, ( i guess about $40-50) depends on "extras" but we will see soon

[upupandaway]

Edit: The MiG-21 module for $20 is fantastic value. That amount is a token of the effort and would never sustain a full-time commercial developer. The reason it is so cheap is that beczl would have done the mod anyway since he clearly has a passion for the aircraft. He's just making some 'pocket-money' on the side, and very good luck to him - he deserves it (in the past he has made many great models and given them to the community for free). But please don't confuse the $20 as being a realistic amount for companies that want to produce things commercially. Even though these hypothetical companies have smaller scope than ED, what they do often requires more work, since they have to discover and work around lots of things that ED can trivially change (since ED have the source code and the capability to make arbitrary changes as they see fit). Be very glad that you do great things for free and for small amounts like $20.

 

But isn´t what you mention about Beczl´s project also a good example for the support he received from the community? The goal he set was surpassed significantly and after it´s released, sales will continue.

[john_X]

so does ED allow us to sell the .edm format or not? because i'm confused. selling a mod in this format would be cheaper indeed...

[alex1]

You only need one fifth the sales at $100 to make the same money, and then you progressively drop the price to get more sales. *That* is basic good business :)

 

.

 

I doubt many people are willing to spend more on an add-on than on the original game.... Good business relies on number of sales at an affordable price rather a few at a high price. The development costs should spread over many sales not the first unlucky few. Anyone you makes good add on for DCS at $20 - $30 is gonna do well... and subsequently cover there development costs...

Edited December 12, 2012 by alex1

[BrumTx]

To the person that PM'ed me earlier as was stated in my post NO correspondence will be answered.

That means it's already in the garbage :) and deleted

[SkateZilla]

so does ED allow us to sell the .edm format or not? because i'm confused. selling a mod in this format would be cheaper indeed...

 

Sell EDM?

 

You can Sell your MAX File on TurboSquid.

 

 

As for Selling EDMs that replace EDs in the Engine, and most likely make use of the already present scripting for SFM, Pylons, Guns, Lights, and Systems.

 

I doubt it.

[Moa]

so does ED allow us to sell the .edm format or not? because i'm confused. selling a mod in this format would be cheaper indeed...

 

Well, if you look at the licensing terms of the software, anything created with ED's tools belongs to ED, not the creator (unless the license has been changed in the last few months - I don't have a copy onhand to re-check).

 

They would have to make an exception for models created in EDM, but without that exception they are likely to belong to ED. Probably if you enter a license agreement with ED you may get to keep copyright over the things you create.

 

I'd suggest contacting them directly (JimMacK or Wags) to ask, rather than have us speculate.

[Presing]

What i think is the 3d models should be checked and payed from ED or released for free by moders. Then they could resell 3D models for 5$/10$, what ever they think is good price.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Presing