Mighty amraam not so mighty in real life?

[EtherealN]

Beaming:

Putting the enemy missile "abeam", as in the nautical term. Effectively, he's on your 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock.

 

Notch:

This is a maneuver where multiple things are achieved - you place the hostile emitter abeam (note: EMITTER. If semiactive missile, the enemy aircraft, if active missile, the incoming missile), and you also ensure that the enemy emitter is in "look-down"; that is, you are on lower altitude. When done correctly, you will have the same doppler return as the terrain that is behind you in the enemy radar picture, and your aircraft will be rejected as ground clutter. Effectively - you are now invisible to that specific radar.

 

Reading energy states:

Energy is the money you spend to "do stuff". If the enemy you're about to fight is higher up and faster than you, he has way more "money" than you; and as per FC3, both of these "moneys" are transferred to the weapons on launch. So basically, he has a lot of energy to do stuff with (like pressing you, or defensive maneuvers etcetera), but you have less. This means that if the fight develops and both go defensive against each other's missiles, he'll still have an advantage on you afterwards.

 

There is more to this as well - it's not something you learn "easily". It takes practice, and mostd specifically, it takes GOOD practice. The problem for most people that "just fly" is that they don't train on specific things, and thus they have huge trouble with growing their skills beyond the basics. It's hard to do unless you have an IP through a virtual squadron or something like that.

 

Extending:

This is basically just making sure there is more distance between you and the enemy. For example you might decide to extend after a failed shot instead of getting yourself drawin into WVR or even a fully developed BFM brawl. If it's F-15C vs Su-27 for example, the F-15C does not want to go in there. There's things the Eagle can do there certainly, and an unskilled Flanker pilot will be eaten alive in BFM by a skilled F-15C pilot, but BFM is basically "Flanker Territory" and Eagles only go there if they really have to, because they'll be at a disadvantage there.

 

Point E on radar extremes:

After launching your weapon, turn to a side such that the target is only narrowly inside your radar scope. This means that range between you two close a lot slower (without forcing you to slow down, which would be suicide). If I do this, and you don't, you are dead. No if's, no but's, you are dead - you have successfully intercepted my missile with your aircraft. ;) This is extra important if you have only semis, while I have actives: once my AIM-120 has gone pitbull, I can go ahead and notch you to ditch your missile. However, if I didn't make sure to keep the distance but rather flew right into you (while you kept distance), your ER would have blown me up already... Another neat thing here is that if you find that you do need to notch - you are ALMOST there already! 30 degree turn - you're now in the notch! (As long as you've made sure you're lower.)

 

Missile distance:

Inner circle on your radar warning equipment in the Flanker, Mig and Frog indicates hostile emitter strength. This does not mean an absolute distance (there's no such thing as "3 lights = 4 kilometers), but you see when the emitter grows stronger and depending on type you can learn general guidelines through practice (or through joining a squadron and getting trained on it, which I would recommend, for example the 51st, 159th etcetera).

 

Going defensive:

Depends a lot on exactly how you mean but consider this:

 

1) Launch weapon.

2) Put target on radar extremes (60 degree left or right turn)

3) Dive as necessary to ensure you are slightly lower than the enemy.

4) If incoming enemy missile, dip a further 30 degrees in the same direction as previous. Missile is now defeated. (Works excellently against the Slammer, just note that in this case the angle might be slightly different since you need to notch the missile, not the enemy aircraft, and they might have become differentiated in azimuth by now.)

5) With missile defeated, go 30 degrees back - your target is now on scope again and you can keep firing.

 

Done perfectly, you are defensive only for a few seconds. However, takes a LOT of practice.

 

On aggressing Eagles, generally speaking - do not fight them 1v1. Bring a friend and attack from two directions (pincer him). Then, if he notches your missile, he is visible for your friend's missile... He cannot notch both of you. If numbers are even, you need to make sure you stay aggressive and keep him defensive. But really, this is something someone else should help you out with since I suck at the Flanker. (I never managed to wrap my head around it's radar display, used to fly Su-25 only in LOMAC and FC1, then F-15 in FC2. Still haven't decided on what'll be my FC3 bird.)

[Cali]

MP Pk is a red herring, the doctrine for correct parameter launch and weapon conservation is lost on many an online nub. ;)

 

I agree, some people online tend to not spam missiles while some can only get their kills from that and getting lucky. That is the best we can go by because there is no plenty in firing missiles or getting killed. This will never change, it's been around as long as LOMAC has been out.

 

Also, missiles do miss for reasons unknown. Anyone remember seeing Dogfights of Desert Storm?

[arteedecco]

Beaming:

 

4) If incoming enemy missile, dip a further 30 degrees in the same direction as previous. Missile is now defeated. (Works excellently against the Slammer, just note that in this case the angle might be slightly different since you need to notch the missile, not the enemy aircraft, and they might have become differentiated in azimuth by now.)

5) With missile defeated, go 30 degrees back - your target is now on scope again and you can keep firing.

 

Done perfectly, you are defensive only for a few seconds. However, takes a LOT of practice.

 

:D Thank you @EtherealN for putting that together (esp. so quickly)!!! Many many thanks +1

 

Some of that (the energy state as money analogy) I recognize, but your explanations help a lot especially in the context of this thread.

 

In my experience in BVR you don't "see" the other aircraft and for that matter you certainly don't see the missile... especially if you take immediate evasive action to "notch".

 

So... big question then... A.) how do you *know* the enemy missile is defeated (R-27ER or AIM-120B/C) after notching?

 

B.) Seems like notching needs to be initiated a little after shot warning not immediately... unless within 10nm?

 

And for notching, C.) How much alt do you need to drop down to assume you've done it with confidence? Plus I am guessing if enemy has more altitude than you when launching and is diving on you... it will be harder to notch because his radar seeker is pointed at you to begin with (yes, still looking down, but not gimbaling as much... I understand this probably doesn't matter, but...)?

 

Thanks a ton.

 

[EDIT]Added a new thread to follow-up more on tactics, maybe you wouldn't mind reviewing: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=100117[/EDIT]

 

"Snipe"

Edited January 11, 2013 by arteedecco

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The total number of AIM-120 firings (not just in that conflict) is 16, or close to that number and I do recall that you were aware of this. THe Pk from all those shots is about 60%. You tell me how that amounts to 12:1.

I don't remember that I have ever been aware of the total number of AMRAAM's fired. That's why I asked for the source of information about firing AMRAAM's over Yugoslavia.

 

SAM = Stealth STOP!

[marcos]

7 pages in 24 hours.

[MTFDarkEagle]

7 pages in 24 hours.

 

Ooh you should be here when DCS: Fast mover will be released ;)

Not to mention several previous DCS releases.

[Cali]

7 pages in 24 hours.

 

I got 3 pages, mine shows 30 post per page.

[GGTharos]

So... big question then... A.) how do you *know* the enemy missile is defeated (R-27ER or AIM-120B/C) after notching?

 

Your RWR stops screaming at you. But given that an active might re-acquire, you might want to wait before turning back in. How long do you wait? How far did the shot come from? Tha should let you figure out a ball-park figure in seconds to complete your action.

 

B.) Seems like notching needs to be initiated a little after shot warning not immediately... unless within 10nm?

 

And for notching, C.) How much alt do you need to drop down to assume you've done it with confidence? Plus I am guessing if enemy has more altitude than you when launching and is diving on you... it will be harder to notch because his radar seeker is pointed at you to begin with (yes, still looking down, but not gimbaling as much... I understand this probably doesn't matter, but...)?

 

You initiate a notch whenever you want. You can do it before the shot is taken, too. As for altitude, let's say 1km/3000' for the moment ... but generally speaking if you're ditching missiles start by going to the deck, you can figure out riskier (i.e. higher altitude) notching methods later.

[ralfidude]

GGTharos, sent ya a PM.

 

 

Due to this becoming such a heated but enthusiastic conversation, I want to make a tutorial video of these proper techniques with you, though we might want to wait till 1.2.3 comes out. Send me a PM back if you are interested and we can work out the details in PMs. Then I'l post this up here when it's done, and this will serve as a proper training tool to teach people about all the things they have been doing wrong so far. (Including me, I suck at dog fighting, though not that much when I did it for real in Air Combat USA with Linebacker :) )

[Kelju_K]

Quoting myself here:

"I think that a pilot that can visualize the situation well, should be able to cause enough problems for the missle, any missle for that matter to miss, without necesarily breakin the lock."

 

Your reply GG:

Not really. Think about it this way, just to avoid introducing new missiles, we'll talk about firing R-27ER and AIM-120 inside mutual Rtr (it used to be called NEZ, but they stopped calling it this for a reason ). The guy firing the 27 will be shot down if he doesn't break lock.

 

Well i have proven you wrong. I can cause your precious noobram enough problems to keep presing without breakin the lock on su-27. There are ED testers that fly regulary on the servers who have seen me do it numerous times, ask them if you dont believe me.

 

Just because you cant do it, doesnt mean nobody can. They are stupid, the missles, and as long i know exactly how stupid i'll find a way to go around them if i take it as my mission, like i did earlier allmost just because you were telling me it's not possible.

 

And your style to answer to peoples posts here is very unpleasant. Used to think that you just know these things better. Now i know you're just a arrogant ****

 

Kel

[LordWolf]

GGTharos, sent ya a PM.

 

 

Due to this becoming such a heated but enthusiastic conversation, I want to make a tutorial video of these proper techniques with you, though we might want to wait till 1.2.3 comes out. Send me a PM back if you are interested and we can work out the details in PMs. Then I'l post this up here when it's done, and this will serve as a proper training tool to teach people about all the things they have been doing wrong so far. (Including me, I suck at dog fighting, though not that much when I did it for real in Air Combat USA with Linebacker :) )

 

Well make sure u post it here

[marcos]

Well i have proven you wrong. I can cause your precious noobram enough problems to keep presing without breakin the lock on su-27.

:lol:

[Kaktus29]

just a question.. has nobody thought of this or is it very hard to implement .. the thing i am thinking is data-links for the missiles.. imagine 2 vs 2 scenario..

 

what has been described here on this forum is known, the problems, the notching etc.. imagine flying with your wingman 5 miles in front of you.. while the enemy keeps close formation.. now, if you have data-link for radar info and scanning.. the first plane (your team) would fire a missile or be fired upon by the enemy, because he is engaged defensive its hard for him to maintain lock right?).. so here comes the data-link situation.. being closer to the 2 enemies the first plane is in great location to lob missiles but sadly much harder to guide them because he is on the defensive.. while me being behind him have more time and thus can guide his missiles over data-link.. would in this situation be very lethal for the enemy? what do you think would happen.. IF of course a big IF this scneario is technical possibility..

 

i never heard of this, just thinking out loud.. is there some big problem with data-link for missiles or was this already tried but failed because of this or that.. ? anybody knows? ..

[Mandrake5]

Quoting myself here:

 

Well i have proven you wrong. I can cause your precious noobram enough problems to keep presing without breakin the lock on su-27. There are ED testers that fly regulary on the servers who have seen me do it numerous times, ask them if you dont believe me.

 

Kel

 

Orthogonal roll?

[Meatwod]

Do a little research on the F-22 and Euro fighter and you'll find the answer.

 

 

just a question.. has nobody thought of this or is it very hard to implement .. the thing i am thinking is data-links for the missiles.. imagine 2 vs 2 scenario..

 

what has been described here on this forum is known, the problems, the notching etc.. imagine flying with your wingman 5 miles in front of you.. while the enemy keeps close formation.. now, if you have data-link for radar info and scanning.. the first plane (your team) would fire a missile or be fired upon by the enemy, because he is engaged defensive its hard for him to maintain lock right?).. so here comes the data-link situation.. being closer to the 2 enemies the first plane is in great location to lob missiles but sadly much harder to guide them because he is on the defensive.. while me being behind him have more time and thus can guide his missiles over data-link.. would in this situation be very lethal for the enemy? what do you think would happen.. IF of course a big IF this scneario is technical possibility..

 

i never heard of this, just thinking out loud.. is there some big problem with data-link for missiles or was this already tried but failed because of this or that.. ? anybody knows? ..

[GGTharos]

Let's see if I can answer this without making things confusing.

 

Each aircraft in a flight will use a slightly different radar channel to avoid mutual interference. Imagine two planes attacking with SARH missiles, using the same radio channel: The results are hard to predict, both missiles might go for the same target instead of two separate targets.

 

The same happens with missile data-links. You use different codes/channels than the other guy so that your missiles don't get confused and go for his target, or vice versa.

 

Could you set it up to be on the same channel for a particular tactic? Yes, but it isn't practical, for the following reasons:

 

1) Not going to work anyway. The M-Link is generated when you launch the missile, and emits from your radar, not the other guy's radar.

2) Too much screwing around with stuff in cockpit during a high pressure situation.

 

 

Now, a tactic like the one you described is possible, but probably happens more like this:

 

The guy ahead (or on the side) is somehow undetected/hidden from enemy radar, and he keeps his own radar silent. When gets into a high-pk range, he attacks the datalink target supplied by the far-away guy... only then does his radar emit, and maybe only the M-Link (but you might still show up on the RWR).

 

i never heard of this, just thinking out loud.. is there some big problem with data-link for missiles or was this already tried but failed because of this or that.. ? anybody knows? ..

[marcos]

just a question.. has nobody thought of this or is it very hard to implement .. the thing i am thinking is data-links for the missiles.. imagine 2 vs 2 scenario..

 

what has been described here on this forum is known, the problems, the notching etc.. imagine flying with your wingman 5 miles in front of you.. while the enemy keeps close formation.. now, if you have data-link for radar info and scanning.. the first plane (your team) would fire a missile or be fired upon by the enemy, because he is engaged defensive its hard for him to maintain lock right?).. so here comes the data-link situation.. being closer to the 2 enemies the first plane is in great location to lob missiles but sadly much harder to guide them because he is on the defensive.. while me being behind him have more time and thus can guide his missiles over data-link.. would in this situation be very lethal for the enemy? what do you think would happen.. IF of course a big IF this scneario is technical possibility..

 

i never heard of this, just thinking out loud.. is there some big problem with data-link for missiles or was this already tried but failed because of this or that.. ? anybody knows? ..

Both the AMRAAM and Meteor can use INS mid-course guidance, where the INS location of the target is provided by the radar or EO/IRST of any data-linked aircraft.

[Kaktus29]

tnx for the answers.. yeah i knew about the f-22, even mig-31 had it back in those USSR times, it was meant to supplement the Su-27 groups ahead of him..and guide them.. but i didn't notice any possibility of SU27-Su27 connection or F-16-F-16 connection.. and wondered why? is it so hard or what? ..

 

GG explanation is good one.. although i don't understand how could under your scenario the "close guy who launches the missile through data-link" show up on the RWR of the targeted plane..? If the targeted plane is targeted by the far-away guy shouldn't his RWR show up only him.. and when the missile from the close-up guy fires away that missile should be guided by the radar beam of the far away guy.. ?

 

basically its all about codes then? but maybe its like really complicated to do this codes stuff and its not practical for the 3-4 gen fighters and that's why nobody did it.. ? For instance F-14 or Mig-31 have good radars and good tracking, they could if sending through datalinks the enemy position do allot of damage, especially in the Su situation where SARH makes you a "slave" to the slaving etc..

 

i'm talking about in-game stuff..in today's reality with 5gen its all much more hi-tech..so forget about this...just about in-game tech tactics.. what do you think? would it be a killer tactic or? .. why wouldn't it work?GG mentioned only in the case of flanking attack would it work but not head-on attack? i guess if one attacks 2vs2 it doesn't work since you are still at deficit of 1 illuminant at the "backstage" .. but if you have numerical advantage 3 vs. 2 wouldn't this tactic be better than 3 flying line astern formation vs. 2 flying similar formation?

in this case 2 fighters is the illuminant(who target 2 enemies and send datalink solutions to 1 launcher platform at the "frontlines") and safely positioned in the back, while 1 guy is in the front free to do max. engaged defensive maneuvers while still lobbing missiles who will be guided to the target against 2 enemies who are at big disadvantage in this position?

Edited February 13, 2013 by Kaktus29

[GGTharos]

tnx for the answers.. yeah i knew about the f-22, even mig-31 had it back in those USSR times, it was meant to supplement the Su-27 groups ahead of him..and guide them.. but i didn't notice any possibility of SU27-Su27 connection or F-16-F-16 connection.. and wondered why? is it so hard or what? ..

 

It was (and probably still is) technologically difficult and expensive, because it has to be reliable against nature (flight conditions) and enemy (ECM), as well as adding to the cost of maintenance. In any case, data-links have always been around, but nothing like the high-capacity data-links that we see being implemented in new planes.

 

GG explanation is good one.. although i don't understand how could under your scenario the "close guy who launches the missile through data-link" show up on the RWR of the targeted plane..? If the targeted plane is targeted by the far-away guy shouldn't his RWR show up only him.. and when the missile from the close-up guy fires away that missile should be guided by the radar beam of the far away guy.. ?

 

No, the missile can only be guided by the radar that launched it normally. In order to generate the missile data-link, you have to launch the missile.

 

So, the shooter has a target that he has received via data-link from the far-away guy, but the shooter is the only one who can generate the missile guidance signal in most cases.

Think of it this way: The system generates the signal for the missile when it launches the missile. The far away guy is not launching a missile.

 

basically its all about codes then? but maybe its like really complicated to do this codes stuff and its not practical for the 3-4 gen fighters and that's why nobody did it.. ? For instance F-14 or Mig-31 have good radars and good tracking, they could if sending through datalinks the enemy position do allot of damage, especially in the Su situation where SARH makes you a "slave" to the slaving etc..

 

Read my previous post regarding mutual interference. It's like having two RC planes with the remotes being on the same frequency.

 

i'm talking about in-game stuff..in today's reality with 5gen its all much more hi-tech..so forget about this...just about in-game tech tactics.. what do you think? would it be a killer tactic or? .. why wouldn't it work?GG mentioned only in the case of flanking attack would it work but not head-on attack?

 

The reason I mention flanking attack is because the flanking aircraft will be out of the target's detection volume. This way he can attack and not be attacked in return. This is a very standard air to air attack tactic/pattern. The shooter has to guide the missile, so ideally you do not want the shooter to be detected.

 

i guess if one attacks 2vs2 it doesn't work since you are still at deficit of 1 illuminant at the "backstage" .. but if you have numerical advantage 3 vs. 2 wouldn't this tactic be better than 3 flying line astern formation vs. 2 flying similar formation?

 

I don't think there is a simple/easy answer to your question ... but assuming the same planes and missiles for everyone (just to make things simple) then you probably want to put all your planes into the fight at once against your enemy. But, specific mission requirements (and thus your choice of tactics) can complicate this decision.

 

in this case 2 fighters is the illuminant(who target 2 enemies and send datalink solutions to 1 launcher platform at the "frontlines") and safely positioned in the back, while 1 guy is in the front free to do max. engaged defensive maneuvers while still lobbing missiles who will be guided to the target against 2 enemies who are at big disadvantage in this position?

 

No. The guy who is launching the missiles must guide the missiles. There is no way around this.

[Kaktus29]

@GG .. so there is no way to FEED the info of the data-link target into the close-up guy's missile.. wtf) why is it so hard..or indeed impossible? ..

 

just ram that data link into your missile, fire it, and off you go) .. why the hell does the missile have to jeopardize my position.. ))

 

i mean, if you say it can't be done thats one thing..but is it impossible..like from technical point of view.. like, we have scientist etc.. why can't they design a missile to be able to get the FEED of the data-link so it doesn't alarm the enemy of the launcher's position..

 

i mean to a degree this must be happening with raptor since they will act in similar way as i described .. one illuminated the other hunts.. as an extra precaution of getting detected..so in case of detection the far-away guy is safe cuz of distance while launcher remains safe cuz he is not seen..

[GGTharos]

@GG .. so there is no way to FEED the info of the data-link target into the close-up guy's missile.. wtf) why is it so hard..or indeed impossible? ..

 

just ram that data link into your missile, fire it, and off you go) .. why the hell does the missile have to jeopardize my position.. ))

 

Because you missile is fat and heavy enough as it is, it may not have spare electrical power to drive that radio, because you would have to download encryption codes into the missile etc.

 

i mean, if you say it can't be done thats one thing..but is it impossible..like from technical point of view.. like, we have scientist etc.. why can't they design a missile to be able to get the FEED of the data-link so it doesn't alarm the enemy of the launcher's position..

Even if it alarms them, it's too late. The only thing they can try to do, other than trying to escape, is a suicide counter-attack ... but the surprise shooter is probably already in a position to escape this counter-attack.

 

As for why it is not possible ... all equipment inside the missile requires space and power, and while your android phone or iPhone may have more general computing power, it doesn't have to deal with the heat of or battery requirement of broadcasting a powerful radar signal, processing that signal very quickly, and withstanding 40g accelerations and repeated hot/cold exposure, etc etc.

 

Very new missiles like AIM-120D and meteor may include a small JTIDS receiver, but this would be a very new feature AFAIK.

 

If say, AIM-120C has such a feature right now, I've never heard of it.

 

i mean to a degree this must be happening with raptor since they will act in similar way as i described .. one illuminated the other hunts.. as an extra precaution of getting detected..so in case of detection the far-away guy is safe cuz of distance while launcher remains safe cuz he is not seen..

Yes, far away F-22 (or GOlden Eagle, or Awacs) feeds data-linked targets to the F-22's, they keep their radars quiet so they don't show up on those super-cool-raptor-killing-new-RWR's, and since they are stealth they can attack head-on from relatively close range where maneuvering will prevent you from escaping from the missile with only maneuvers. If you still escape, the F-22's still have the advantage because you are now confused and trying to figure out what happened.

[Kula66]

If say, AIM-120C has such a feature right now, I've never heard of it.

 

They advertise it as a feature on the Meteor in the marketing glossy (http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/Meteor_ds.pdf), so I'd assume its been in the 120 for a while!

[Dejjvid]

Data links is not new as some people write. The Saab JA37 Viggen had it operational 1985. This was during a time when other nations only had wet dreams about implementing data links.

[LordWolf]

They advertise it as a feature on the Meteor in the marketing glossy (http://www.mbda-systems.com/mediagallery/files/Meteor_ds.pdf), so I'd assume its been in the 120 for a while!

 

Now go check the price difference between meteor and 120c

[LordWolf]

Yes, far away F-22 (or GOlden Eagle, or Awacs) feeds data-linked targets to the F-22's, they keep their radars quiet so they don't show up on those super-cool-raptor-killing-new-RWR's, and since they are stealth they can attack head-on from relatively close range where maneuvering will prevent you from escaping from the missile with only maneuvers. If you still escape, the F-22's still have the advantage because you are now confused and trying to figure out what happened.

 

Only halfway wrong this time.

F22s use AESA radar (apg 77) which can put multiple frequencies including broadband into the area at different points and because it uses electronic prf, it can switch frequency on any pulse. For dummies that means that it's radar is REALLY REALLY hard to detect / distinguish from the background noise. And by really hard i mean nearly impossible.