F-15C radar: too many user errors!!

[flavnet]

Hello everyone! This is the first time I write on the forum and greet all of you who read me. It 'a pleasure.

I am a fan of simulators (of all kinds) and I follow the simulations of DCS for a long time (from the first product: the legendary Su-27 Flanker for Windows 95).

I recently tried FC3 (1.2.2.7570) and more specifically, I tried a mission created by myself with the editor in which I - with an F-15C - proceeded to intercept head-on three Mig-23.

So, my intention is to test the functions of the radar of the F-15C to understand what was optimized/simulated.

In my opinion, that there is something wrong.

At 40 mn I switched VSD to TWS, I have selected the three tracks for the priority launch, and at 20 mn, I started to launch the AIM-120B. When first missile started, all tracks have disappeared and the radar is automatically returned in VSD mode. OK! Very well, I started the mission again.

This time I started missile launch procedure between 40 and 20 mn. Two MiGs were shot down and the third passed me, so I made ​​the turn (no blackout, I reduced my velocity). I tried to lock it back but there was no way!! I even managed to get on his trail (high altitude) and the radar (VSD, TWS, AAQ set to 10 mn) has never been able to lock the Mig!! (the Mig's pilot had the command and it was not without control). OK, try again.

Well, I tried a third time this simple mission and I got even a different result.

I still have shot down two of the three Mig in TWS mode (and this just should make us think: an F-15C that at a distance of 80 mn head-on fails to knock down three targets ... are worrying!!). The third Mig, distant a little more than 20 mn, it was still locked, when suddenly disappeared from the radar and there was no way to lock it up again. The fight ended with the Mig-23 (or was it a masked F-22!?) That launch a R-60 shooting down my useless F-15C!!!

Now, I'm not a rookie of simulators and I'd really like to know why no one has ever noticed that these are much more than simple imperfections: If the radar of an F-15C worked so well, a couple of piper could take down one.

We hope in future developments.:helpsmilie:

[Exorcet]

Can you post a track?

 

Also check to see that you don't have multiple buttons assigned to the same controls.

[SkateZilla]

Hello everyone! This is the first time I write on the forum and greet all of you who read me. It 'a pleasure.

I am a fan of simulators (of all kinds) and I follow the simulations of DCS for a long time (from the first product: the legendary Su-27 Flanker for Windows 95).

I recently tried FC3 (1.2.2.7570) and more specifically, I tried a mission created by myself with the editor in which I - with an F-15C - proceeded to intercept head-on three Mig-23.

So, my intention is to test the functions of the radar of the F-15C to understand what was optimized/simulated.

In my opinion, that there is something wrong.

At 40 mn I switched VSD to TWS, I have selected the three tracks for the priority launch, and at 20 mn, I started to launch the AIM-120B. When first missile started, all tracks have disappeared and the radar is automatically returned in VSD mode. OK! Very well, I started the mission again.

This time I started missile launch procedure between 40 and 20 mn. Two MiGs were shot down and the third passed me, so I made ​​the turn (no blackout, I reduced my velocity). I tried to lock it back but there was no way!! I even managed to get on his trail (high altitude) and the radar (VSD, TWS, AAQ set to 10 mn) has never been able to lock the Mig!! (the Mig's pilot had the command and it was not without control). OK, try again.

Well, I tried a third time this simple mission and I got even a different result.

I still have shot down two of the three Mig in TWS mode (and this just should make us think: an F-15C that at a distance of 80 mn head-on fails to knock down three targets ... are worrying!!). The third Mig, distant a little more than 20 mn, it was still locked, when suddenly disappeared from the radar and there was no way to lock it up again. The fight ended with the Mig-23 (or was it a masked F-22!?) That launch a R-60 shooting down my useless F-15C!!!

Now, I'm not a rookie of simulators and I'd really like to know why no one has ever noticed that these are much more than simple imperfections: If the radar of an F-15C worked so well, a couple of piper could take down one.

We hope in future developments.:helpsmilie:

 

if you can confirm it with others, post it on the bugs forum. (As FC3 is Still in BETA)

 

I personally have had no problem shooting down 4 enemies in one group. if they are lucky enough to get to a Merge, I quickly dispatch them with a Series of Vertical maneuvers and either guns or AIM-9 shot., not allowing them the chance to cut and run or get behind me.

 

Above and on his tail you realize radar isnt 100% coverage right? once he's outside your cone, he wont show on your radar, (ie he could have turned around and flew under you).

[blkspade]

There may have been some pilot error involved here. Firstly, at any point did you change your radar's prf settings. Secondly upon closure of range, did you decrease the scan range of the radar accordingly. Thirdly picking up a bandit from the 6'oclock position usually requires medium prf, and if within visual range vertical scan or bore sight are better choices.

[104th_Maverick]

I'd really like to know why no one has ever noticed that these are much more than simple imperfections

 

 

I'm afraid these are not imperfections, as blkspade pointed out more than likely this is all down to pilot error. The harsh truth is your doing it wrong.

 

You have made no mention of PRF freq which likely means your not aware of what they are or how they work. FC3 requires you to do your homework on all the systems you'll be using while in the air, so you have to spend some time reading the manual and learning about how your systems work.

 

The F-15C radar has without a doubt the best radar in the game and it is a long way from useless, but it takes a while to understand it and get good at working with it while engaged. Its very important that you understand what PRF frequency you should be in at any given time with relation to the bandits range and aspect to your aircraft.

 

It is also very important to learn all your radar 'modes'. BVR mode is just mode your radar works in, other modes like vertical scan and bore mode are essential in any WVR engagement so its critical you understand how these work.

 

A few things:

The Mig probably disappeared from radar because of the position the pilot put the aircraft in or because you were in the wrong PRF frequency.

There are no masked F-22s in the game ;)

An F-15 cannot engage any targets from 80nm

[arteedecco]

and if within visual range vertical scan or bore sight are better choices.

 

My understanding is that "3" (Vertical Scan) and "4" (Bore) are limited to 10nm. I can often acquire an enemy visually much further out than 10nm if they are high enough to drag a contrail.

 

My follow-up questions are... A.) when you flip to Vertical or Bore, the radar range is auto set to 10nm, but will it detect enemies further out and put their target brick at the top of your radar screen? My experience has been "no", but I'm still learning a lot. I have heard that Long Range Bore is coming???

 

B.) How do you know aspect of enemy before you TWS (limited range, takes a little longer to build a picture), lock them up (STT). In other words... how do you determine which PRF to flip to (F-15C cycles automatically by default)? Two scenarios to consider:

1.) You have (or had... maybe enemy is being coy and switched off RADAR temporarily) an RWR threat, so can assume enemy is headed at you (so I assume you use PRF Hi), and

2.) You are just plodding around in CAP searching... do you just use PRF Alternating (Med/High) for best results?

 

C.) I have heard from a pilot that PRF Hi means "highest power" so best chance at acquisition, so whenever he's just searching for unknown threat, he is in PRF "Hi". I didn't think that sounded right?

 

(somewhat tangent)

In the Su, I was messing around following HAWG pilots in their A-10Cs practicing my intercept and sensor skills. I was trailing an A-10C at about 1000 - 2000 feet and went to the EOS system "O" (radar off). It never picked up the A-10C. It was like I was too close. I could use the Helmet targeting method to acquire and lock with EOS, but at that close range it just never presented a bar on the HUD. Thoughts?

[Exorcet]

My understanding is that "3" (Vertical Scan) and "4" (Bore) are limited to 10nm. I can often acquire an enemy visually much further out than 10nm if they are high enough to drag a contrail.

 

My follow-up questions are... A.) when you flip to Vertical or Bore, the radar range is auto set to 10nm, but will it detect enemies further out and put their target brick at the top of your radar screen? My experience has been "no", but I'm still learning a lot. I have heard that Long Range Bore is coming???

 

I've only ever used the AAQ modes when really close, so I don't recall what happens past 10 nm.

 

B.) How do you know aspect of enemy before you TWS (limited range, takes a little longer to build a picture), lock them up (STT). In other words... how do you determine which PRF to flip to (F-15C cycles automatically by default)? Two scenarios to consider:

1.) You have (or had... maybe enemy is being coy and switched off RADAR temporarily) an RWR threat, so can assume enemy is headed at you (so I assume you use PRF Hi), and

2.) You are just plodding around in CAP searching... do you just use PRF Alternating (Med/High) for best results?

 

I just switch to TWS when I get a contact. In general if your target is very far (50+ nm) you'll need to use HI PRF to see them. If they are close, just leave the radar in interleaved.

 

C.) I have heard from a pilot that PRF Hi means "highest power" so best chance at acquisition, so whenever he's just searching for unknown threat, he is in PRF "Hi". I didn't think that sounded right?

 

PRF isn't power. Interleaved is the best for general search. HI is for targets closing in on you, it also has the longest range when the target is at a good aspect. MID is for targets beaming or running away and it will detect targets performing those maneuvers much better than HI does.

[Mustang]

C.) I have heard from a pilot that PRF Hi means "highest power" so best chance at acquisition, so whenever he's just searching for unknown threat, he is in PRF "Hi". I didn't think that sounded right?

 

Hi PRF doesn't really mean high power, its the setting of the pulse doppler repetition

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_repetition_frequency

[tankerkevo]

So a newbie question related to this thread

 

I'll provide a scenario and you tell me how you would setup your weapons, radar and mode.

 

You are in an F-15 flying at 400kts alttitude 25,000ft. There's two unfriendly SU-27s closing from your 1 o'clock and are 60nm out.

 

No matter what I've tried, when I click the lock (enter key) while in BVR mode I see the red target square flash, but it doesn't lock. I'm trying to figure out what the heck I'm doing wrong.

[GGTharos]

You're too far for the radar to go STT. Bug them in TWS.

[tankerkevo]

I'll try this tonight. So from what you are saying, TWS has the longest range? As you close on them what's a typical progression of sensor changes you make?

 

I appreciate the advice.

[GGTharos]

No, TWS doesn't have the strongest range, it's a completely different method of radar operation. Instead of slaving the radar to a target, it designates the TWS track (A software construct) as the target. The radar never locks onto it, unlike STT (STT also builds a track).

 

The typical progression is HPRF for long range detection, then ILV inside 40nm. Use MRPF only if you need the longest range receding target detection possible (about 22nm for fighter sized targets)

[arteedecco]

Hopefully some of you can shed some light on this for me. I've got woes with the radar usage in general.

 

I have been trying to eliminate variables, so I've been sticking to the F-15C because its radar is the "best" and most straightforward (IMO).

 

I've been flying 1 v 2 (AI) Mig-29A with 2xR-27ER (maybe just R-27R) 2xR-73, 2xR-60.

 

My results are not what I'd expect. I was hoping after time this would be a no-brainier, but my results are not great. I have to say, the R-27s just don't worry me anymore, but I constantly get splashed by EOS shots with either of the IR missiles after we get past my initial TWS (1/3 way below Rmax, not yet to Rt) spoiler shots with AIM-120Cs.

 

Basically, I fire a single spoiler (dot centered) at each bandit in TWS before the lead fighter shoots. I'm at 550 or 600 KIAS in full A/B. Usually after I shoot I crank. Invariably my AIM-120 goes pitbull and I see the lead Mig go defensive, notching.

 

However, he usually stays a target on my scope beyond the 90 degree point, to about 110 or 120 degrees, then drops.

 

At this point I'm hauling in and I run out of any idea what to do because I've lost my SA on at least the first bandit who's now running from me until he's defeated the 120. Then he breaks into me while I'm fiddling with my radar and worrying about his wingman. Then... I see an RWR 29 I cannot get my blasted radar to pick anything up even with it on PRF HI, narrow beam, BVR mode... just nothing... and I only have a matter of second then.. bang... R-60 or 73 and it's lights out.

 

I feel like an idiot.. I mean.. I am at this point and need some coaching. What do you even call the point in the fight where I've got both bandits defensive?

 

It's at that point and the second... nearly WVR fight where I just die and suck and get all pissed off.

 

Any guidance would be supremely appreciated. I feel like the F15C radar just drops contacts super easy. Yeah, I get the notch, but it seems so difficult to reacquire once within about 15 miles... such a tight beam you have to get it just right or your radar never sees the badguy. If you zoom it out to say 20 or 40 miles and there are any other bandits then you just get confused looking at all the targets and the time it takes to figure which one is the immediate thread and get him locked up well... poof.

 

Again, I know I'm doing stuff wrong, so please help. Any *specific* guidance is appreciated as I have done quite a bit of homework, read the manual, searched the forum, etc.

 

Thanks gang!

[KLR Rico]

Hey Snipe,

 

I have had similar issues, I know exactly how you feel with the tight beam at those close ranges. I try to avoid WVR combat in 1 vs 2 situations now. If faced with those odds, I'll use the maximum speed altitude advantage going into the fight, fire as close to Rt as I dare, crank hard, and then extend again. Hopefully taking out at least one of them in the process.

 

I don't know if it helps with the Pk, but I also use STT once I've decided which one I'm going to attack.

 

At least that's all my norm when fighting against the AI. I fly differently against human players, since people take different measures against TWS vs STT attacks.

[EtherealN]

You mention that you typically crank, but do you also descend? Remember, after your missile(s) are flying, you no longer strictly need altitude and speed to help the shots, so you can descend with your crank in order to either prepare for a possible notch maneuver yourself or to deny him his notch.

 

Basically, from what I can see, your problems are caused by losing track of the enemies in the first place, and this should hopefully avoid that.

[arteedecco]

^^

 

So, yeah, I usually do come down some. Normal attack profile is drive in hard at 20-24K feet MSL, 550 - 600 KIAS (full a/b, Mach 1 +), acquire bandits in RWS, switch to TWS, as close to Rt (like @KLR Rico) as I dare... though I don't know why I'm worried about R-27 shots at all... I fire on both bandits (dot centered), then crank to break lock.

 

When I do break their lock and see them going defensive, I turn back into them, switch radar into RWS (is that the right acronym for default radar setting... can't remember?), and I dive after running target in a descending drag race. Bandit (usually lead) hits the deck and just hits full a/b. I sometimes reacquire and just never get w/in launch params for AIM-120, meanwhile bandit wingman comes round and snipes me with EOS shot. Bastards.

 

So... not sure how crank, descend profile helps me with my SA? Why does descending help? Cause now I'm not in as drastic a look down radar profile?

 

I guess keeping a little distance from bandits to keep it BVR could be good especially if my "awesome" F15C radar could pick them back up (again, maybe descending to closer to their altitude helps with reacquiring?).

 

I just figured staying high meant I would have the energy advantage, which would be good if I could get my blasted radar to find the badguys. Guess it's a balancing act, eah?

 

Any tips for what radar settings to use once targets start maneuvering? Like:

 

1.) Switch out of TWS to BVR

2.) narrow the beam

3.) set PRF Med

 

From what I've been reading using interleaved Hi / Med PRF is "fine" for maneuvering targets but I just cannot pick them up as quick as they get me locked up even with that lousy Mig radar.

 

The other area of radar where I just suck is with the altitude search band. Any tips here based on the profile I'm describing where the lead bandit is on the deck running? Seems like no matter what I cannot pick him up.

 

I've done a lot of blue on blue intercepts between F-15Cs and it seems that the radar is excruciatingly "exact" when it comes to it's detection beam. Seems oddly difficult to pick up the other aircraft and see that little dot on the scope. I've been flying WVR where I know he's w/in 60 degrees of my nose, same direction of flight, but a little higher (under 1000 feed delta in alt) and nothing on the scope. Is there a known bug in this portion of the F-15C radar?

 

Thanks again!

 

Cheers Rico! :) glad to hear I'm not the only one. Looking forward to blasting you again soon ;)

[Oberst Zeisig]

Hey guys!

I'm having the exact same problems with reacquiring targets. As far as I know from in and outside the game the Eagle has by far the best and most powerful radar of all simulated planes. But I also have often problems to safe and secure acquiring of targets, even if I know their altitude and aspect quite good and having adjusted the settings of radar accordingly and beeing in the interleaved PRF. In my experience the radar acquisition isn't 100 % safe no matter what altitude and aspect the target has. E.G. sometimes targets from which I have a good signal in BVR mode suddenly disappear and than appear againg some seconds later at exat the same Alt. and aspect. And I think when You are just searching with the radar there are several other factors which can "delay" the acquisition. E.G. when I'm just searching targets in a specific area I'm just cruising in some curves and tilting my radar up and dowm slowly in an dimension where targets could be and do this in the interleaved PRF. But as You mentioned the radar has a quite narrow cone. (Does anyon know how narrow the radar cone is vertically in degrees? and what is the verical gimbal limit of the radar?) This isn't normally a problem for distances over 20nm, where the vertical cone is about 20000 ft or more, but for distances about 10nm, which are very interesting in my opinion for getting a good pk for a bvr shot this is quite a narrow cone. In addition I think if all parameters of the radar are met it still can last some seconds to get an acquisition, and some seconds in air combat are quite a lot of time. So if your PRF isnt right in the moment and in the next moment it is (interleavead) and You are still scanning the alt. with your radar in a direction where you guess the target could be it can take quite a lot time to get an acquisition. So for distances under 10nm, where You normally still cant see the target this is quite an unsecure way.

 

In my experience You have to keep all the information You got for say the last minute in mind, so all signals from radar and rwr so You have about a 3d map of all this in Your mind still have to du poker a lot and guess where enemys now could be and fly your maneuvers according to this. So never fly in a straight way and turning into the predicted bandit positions from time to time. And sometimes You get an acquisition and sometimes You don't. All this together I think is ****ING difficult, but I guess this makes the game that interesting.

 

In SP in an one on one situation when I want to train this I close into a bandit intentionally not shooting him down by tws then go defensive. Then I watch the rwr closely combined with looking out visually in this direction and lying my defensive maneuvers according to this. With the russian missiles I usually get their smoketrails visually and if Iḿ lucky enough I can evade all of them untill I get the bandit on visual and shoot him down with visual scan.

 

But thats just a SP method. Have anyone of You tried to use the VR-modes in MP (as vertical scan) to search for targets which are estimated quite close but You still can't see them visual instead of using the bvr mode with its weaknesses in this area?. I tried several times with not much succsess as the scan coverage of these modes ist even closer than that of BVR-mode.

 

Greetings to all!

[Frostie]

If a bandit is trying to notch you then medium PRF is the best solution, also if you are higher than the bandit then you need to get to his altitude or lower to remove ground clutter. The closer you are to the bandit the more of an obstacle altitude becomes so get to his level or extend and keep your distance, in a lot of situations high and close is bad.

 

Vertical scan and bore sight are best used when you have no visual on the bandit but know you're in his proximity and within 5nm. They will take time to acquire the bandit because the radar takes time to scan the given airspace. So use VS when turning or bore sight when you have a bearing up to 10nm so your radar has time on the target to acquire.

 

At 10nm same altitude it should be easy to pick the bandit up on RWS, it will take a few seconds to scan, the problem here is that it's not easy to get your head up looking for smoke trails etc. but in a head on situation you will get a better picture rather than switching immediately to bore sight.

 

Flood mode is also a useful auto mode and can create a nasty surprise for a bandit with an out of the blue inbound AIM-7.

All modes work in MP as they do in SP.

[Oberst Zeisig]

but in a head on situation you will get a better picture rather than switching immediately to bore sight.

 

You mean in this situation (head on) Your SA is better with RWR and visual sight on smoketrails than with bore sight scan only?

 

(Sorry for my Enlish in the post before)

[Frostie]

No, head on when you are low at 10 nm using RWS will give you the opportunity to notice trailing or flanking bandits which will help your SA if you're planning on pressing your current bandit. Do this by just using boresight and you've suddenly gone tunnel vision on the one bandit and risk making a kill but then getting killed yourself. Choosing the right mode is all subject to the situation and how you interpret it.

[Oberst Zeisig]

By the way is there a quick and simple way to switch from the tws-mode of the f-15 to the normal lrs-mode after you already have locked a target?

Unlock doesnt work with tws only a few seconds after lock. Selecting tws again to "unselect" it leads to stt anf after unlock to tws again. And just pushing the button for lrs again leads to lrs yes but with the narrow zone of the tws. Is there a way to do this with ONE button?

[GGTharos]

No, there is not.

[Oberst Zeisig]

I must correct, sure You can unlock a target in TWS, but You have to have the TDS exacly over the target. And then pushing TWS-Button again Your are in LRS mode again. So no real quick way to do this with just 1 button.

 

I do need this quite often, when I'm attaking a target in TWS, but there are some more in front and the attacked target turns away but 1 or 2 other stay offensive. And this ist real a common tactic with the russian birds.

[rassy7]

Thought I read somewhere about a guy creating a timed macro to make that switch with one push of a button, although it seemed a little over the top for me and I think a lot would still have to be just right for it to work ... but if that is really important to you, might be worth a try.

[blkspade]

With a proper HOTAS you should have all your radar functions mapped. The fastest way to go from TWS to RWS it to just hit your BVR button, or even hitting the radar on/off button twice. A bandit ability to enter the notch is dependent upon them being both lower and slower. So its possible to delay/prevent that ability by giving up either altitude or speed. Since your radar will the display the bandits ground speed as well as your own, you can decrease your speed within reason to maintain your altitude advantage and radar lock. The most obvious advantage here is a bandit trying to notch can't tell how fast you're going, and with tws they can't be absolutely sure that you still have them bugged. An STT lock is somewhat of a give away, but there is a delay in the time the lock registers as broken on the RWR.