Struggling with Trim a bit

[Fakum]

Having a little bit of struggle with the trim. I know I’m not flying the A-10, and there is no autopilot, and I realize it will not be perfect, but I have been struggling a bit trimming out pitch, roll a bit as well. What I am experiencing is that when I am on my leads wing, say 3 or 4 o’clock position, I have to keep eyes constant on him, nudging the stick a hair up or down to keep level with him, and that’s after spending a few minutes making minor/delicate taps on the Cougar HOTAS hat switch to trim out. This kinda takes any enjoyment out of it for me, I can’t go heads down for anything, including map view or look out the canopy for threats etc, because within a few seconds of eyes off lead, I look back up and hes either out of sight, I’ve drifted high or low, or in the opposite direction, or about to run into him.

So here’s one of my questions, aside of purchasing more hardware to work trim alone in minute increments, I know there is a .lua file located in:

“C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircrafts\P-51D\Input\P-51D\joystick\default.lua”

This .lua file contains line items that appear to be available to make adjustments to trim commands. If that is the case, I think what I want to try and accomplish is, every tap of the hat switch to adjust trim, I want to minimize its value so each tap actually only adjusts the trim in a more minute way, helping with any overshooting if you understand? Does anyone have any feedback on this subject or any other recommendations regarding this? I would appreciate it. See .lua lines I’m referring to below, thanks.

--Trimmers

{pressed = device_commands.Button_11, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.1, name = 'Trim Aileron Left', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_11, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.1, name = 'Trim Aileron Right', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_12, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.05, name = 'Trim Elevator Down', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_12, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.05, name = 'Trim Elevator Up', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_13, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.1, name = 'Trim Rudder Left', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_13, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.1, name = 'Trim Rudder Right', category = 'Flight Control'},

{down = device_commands.Button_14, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_down = 1.0, name = 'Trimmers Reset', category = 'Flight Control'},

[Fakum]

WOW, 62 views and not one comment? Makes me feel like its a foolish inquirey,,,

[Ali Fish]

takes time round here for the right folk to answer.

 

it is hard to trim precisely and often comes down to power settings that can help with the trimming. also formation pilot dont often trim precisely, they often fly trimmed slightly nose down, so the pressure on the stick is not relieved. i.e always adjusting outwith any dead zone or neutral control zone. many have proved formation is more than possible without playing with the sensitivity of the controls... im sure someone will be along. im certainly not best to advise.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Ali Fish

[Fakum]

Well thanks for the feedback just the same. My lead and I typically take off with the exact same payloads and fuel, so we are pretty much cloans, and what we do once airborne and formed up, we set our throttles and RPM the same (Max cruise or Max continious as an example) so we pretty much are are staying together regarding speed, its just annoying to me that all I can seem to afford to do during a mission is watch his wing, like I said, If I look elsewhere for just a few seconds or so, I have probably lost him, hes above or below me etc, then I have to scramble to make corrections. Just trying to figure out a way to minimize that.

[xcom]

Hey Fakum,

 

What I found helpful is reducing the saturation of the pitch and using curvature.

That way it's very delicate and it's easyer to maintain formation flight.

The down side is that you don't have full elevator control.

[Fakum]

Hi xcom, yeah, I actually tried that configuration initially, I wound up back to a linear config. I understand your point, that mostly applies to pitch and roll via the the stick, im more interested in making adjustments to the trim itself, changing the values of trim each time you tap the trim, thats why I posted the contents of the .lua file, to get feedback on what values to change to make the increments of change less responsive.

[Ali Fish]

what fuel are you guys running. i think below 60% u can be assured your rear tank isn`t fueled which is what you want. munitions might cause drag in different ways. unsure on the slip streaming and prop wash effects....i suggest you both trim one notch down , keeping nose always raised with manual pressure. also both of you may be riding that wave. the trick is to get the up and down motion together when not trimmed but relying on trim. and i think ill go install p51 again. :)

 

other points. the trailing pilot will always use more power. the trailing pilot should pump his thottle bewlow and above the leads setting to keep in tow. if the lead isnt trimmed properly that may compound the issues further.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Ali Fish

[Fakum]

Lead seams to be trimmed fine, fuel is at 68% which leaves center tank empty, munitions is only guns. Following in trail is much easier for me, but on the wing,, always tapping the stick to level flight and nudging the trim one way or the other, can never get it settled enough to look in another direction for more than a few seconds,,, Im starting to feel like a parrot now LOL,,,,, Trim,,, I want to make it less effective so that a slight tap has less of an impact then default,,, does the lua file I posted contain the config in which I can dabble in to make those adjustments to the value?

[Ali Fish]

not sure about the lua.

[Invisibull]

I would just blame it on my lead were i you.

[Fakum]

I tried that, but he was to busy yelling at me asking why I wasnt formed up,,, I just couldnt get through to him,,, people!

[Double_D]

I tried that, but he was to busy yelling at me asking why I wasnt formed up,,, I just couldnt get through to him,,, people!

 

If I had heard right...from ones that know...you will always be adjusting your rudder during your flight...while in formations..but I could be wrong..:music_whistling:

 

Someone may correct me, on that ...still a long process of training..

[Wolf Rider]

two things...

 

Does stick curve affect trim?

 

and

 

In one of the files (Contactor.cfg [FFB settings] I think it is) there is a setting for trim. Does this apply to non FFB sticks?

I've always knocked this down to 0.5 and it seems (might just be a placebo though) to make a difference

[Fakum]

To try and answer my own question, I changed the default values of 0.1 to 0.01 in this .lua file, it appears to have had no impact?

 

--Trimmers

{pressed = device_commands.Button_11, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.1, name = 'Trim Aileron Left', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_11, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.1, name = 'Trim Aileron Right', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_12, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.05, name = 'Trim Elevator Down', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_12, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.05, name = 'Trim Elevator Up', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_13, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.1, name = 'Trim Rudder Left', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_13, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.1, name = 'Trim Rudder Right', category = 'Flight Control'},

{down = device_commands.Button_14, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_down = 1.0, name = 'Trimmers Reset', category = 'Flight Control'},

[Ali Fish]

with all due respect Fakum, the plane was designed as it was. and the trim sensitivitiy is what you have, if you want better i suggest using an Axis if it is possible for your trim.

 

and no amount of changing trim will allow you to fly level (without the pilot approriating the plane to level flight himselfl) you have to fly level with the instruments before you on your own. its called learning to fly this wonderfull module in DCS. not trying to beat it because it doesnt feel like the A10.

 

Honestly keep practicing. and tell your lead who is shouting at you to <insert swear word here> off. It takes stupid stupid amounts of practice. AirWolf will attest to why you should tell him where to go ! and for good reason. It takes more patience than time to fly formation, right Airwolf ?

 

also watch your tracks back together with specific focus on your height information. determine the lead "IS" flying level first of all. then take it from there.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Ali Fish

[159th_Viper]

....and no amount of changing trim will allow you to fly level.

 

Invest in a CH Quadrant. Trimmed with CHQ allows hands-free, level flight.

[Ali Fish]

Invest in a CH Quadrant. Trimmed with CHQ allows hands-free, level flight.

 

yes, Fakum this is what you need if you want that. i suspect though you wont and well were back at square one. we all learned by learning the plane is all I am saying.

[Fakum]

Alrighty then! It is what it is,,, thanks for all the feedback

[Ali Fish]

Alrighty then! It is what it is,,, thanks for all the feedback

 

well.... i am sorry your not getting the answers you want :(. hopefully somone else might provide some insight into what you require.

[Fakum]

Im all set,, maybe I came off the wrong way? Hope not,,, I accept the feedback, just find it odd I cant adjust any values in any .lua files to adjust value of input,, oh well,,,, I'll just keep pluggin away,, thanks

[StoOopiD]

Having a little bit of struggle with the trim. I know I’m not flying the A-10, and there is no autopilot, and I realize it will not be perfect, but I have been struggling a bit trimming out pitch, roll a bit as well. What I am experiencing is that when I am on my leads wing, say 3 or 4 o’clock position, I have to keep eyes constant on him, nudging the stick a hair up or down to keep level with him, and that’s after spending a few minutes making minor/delicate taps on the Cougar HOTAS hat switch to trim out. This kinda takes any enjoyment out of it for me, I can’t go heads down for anything, including map view or look out the canopy for threats etc, because within a few seconds of eyes off lead, I look back up and hes either out of sight, I’ve drifted high or low, or in the opposite direction, or about to run into him.

So here’s one of my questions, aside of purchasing more hardware to work trim alone in minute increments, I know there is a .lua file located in:

“C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\DCS World\Mods\aircrafts\P-51D\Input\P-51D\joystick\default.lua”

This .lua file contains line items that appear to be available to make adjustments to trim commands. If that is the case, I think what I want to try and accomplish is, every tap of the hat switch to adjust trim, I want to minimize its value so each tap actually only adjusts the trim in a more minute way, helping with any overshooting if you understand? Does anyone have any feedback on this subject or any other recommendations regarding this? I would appreciate it. See .lua lines I’m referring to below, thanks.

--Trimmers

{pressed = device_commands.Button_11, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.1, name = 'Trim Aileron Left', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_11, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.1, name = 'Trim Aileron Right', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_12, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.05, name = 'Trim Elevator Down', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_12, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.05, name = 'Trim Elevator Up', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_13, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = -0.1, name = 'Trim Rudder Left', category = 'Flight Control'},

{pressed = device_commands.Button_13, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_pressed = 0.1, name = 'Trim Rudder Right', category = 'Flight Control'},

{down = device_commands.Button_14, cockpit_device_id = devices.CONTROL_SYSTEM, value_down = 1.0, name = 'Trimmers Reset', category = 'Flight Control'},

 

I think it has to do with is that the P-51 doesnt have a pov trimming hat, it has trim wheels? pov hat is lacking precision.

 

So did lowering these settings soften up the trim?

[Double_D]

with all due respect Fakum, the plane was designed as it was. and the trim sensitivitiy is what you have, if you want better i suggest using an Axis if it is possible for your trim.

 

and no amount of changing trim will allow you to fly level (without the pilot approriating the plane to level flight himselfl) you have to fly level with the instruments before you on your own. its called learning to fly this wonderfull module in DCS. not trying to beat it because it doesnt feel like the A10.

 

Honestly keep practicing. and tell your lead who is shouting at you to <insert swear word here> off. It takes stupid stupid amounts of practice. AirWolf will attest to why you should tell him where to go ! and for good reason. It takes more patience than time to fly formation, right Airwolf ?

 

also watch your tracks back together with specific focus on your height information. determine the lead "IS" flying level first of all. then take it from there.

 

Don't know what you are talking about...?????

 

 

Practice ... Practice ... Practice and more Practice...

Edited January 18, 2013 by Double_D

[Ali Fish]

Don't know what you are talking about...?????

 

lol ok. referring to my lack of patience and attitude towards you in the face of a lack of familiarisation with the plane in a non finalised state whilst attempting to fly formation without necessary aformentioned qualities. meaning in reference to Fakum`s comment about his lead shouting at him to fly level ..........................and thus my response..( and admitance i was a right cock through all that), and an explanation of just how hard and how much practice it takes to fly good in formation to Fakum with regards to my point of trim not going to make the flight better. phew ,hope that makes sense to my relating it to `our`experience.

[Double_D]

lol ok. referring to my lack of patience and attitude towards you in the face of a lack of familiarisation with the plane in a non finalised state whilst attempting to fly formation without necessary aformentioned qualities. meaning in reference to Fakum`s comment about his lead shouting at him to fly level ..........................and thus my response..( and admitance i was a right cock through all that), and an explanation of just how hard and how much practice it takes to fly good in formation to Fakum with regards to my point of trim not going to make the flight better. phew ,hope that makes sense to my relating it to `our`experience.

 

All water under the bridge for me...wish you the all best..