104th DCSW Server - Mission 'Final Dawn'

[bn880]

Almost forgot about this.

 

Yep, it's becoming clear that we do need messages for target groups. Back in the day there would be always a few on each side strikers that would know what target area the map was on. Nowadays it's not always the case. SO yeah, we'll look into this.

 

And while I'm here thanks for all the constructive criticism so far, grimes, Hijack etc.

 

Cool beans, that will be a big aid to the fun factor. :)

 

Also thanks for all the hard work on the MP missions. When I tried to make a coop with AI it nearly killed me. :D

[Grimes]

Maverick,

 

I think you should note that I never once listed "realism" or "hardcore" as being issues I have with your type of server missions. I've said it many times before, but realism is subjective to the user and realism alone does not guarantee a fun and interesting mission. Obviously to some it matters most, but I'm the sort of person who enjoys it, yet also wants a WW2 theatre so I can take the A-10C to the Battle of the Bulge. That said there are occasionally realism issues I've had in the past with your guys missions. Generally its related to short flight distances and the FC political climate where Israel and Russia are somehow allies against the US and Ukraine. Its country mix matches like that where I kind of support the idea of having a "red" and "blue" country available that has every military asset in the game at their usage so we don't have to use realism as an excuse.

 

Its possible to build complex scenarios that are objective based without having to rely on realism dictating objectives. Depending on what you are going for realism can add or detract to the objective. Objectives can range from Capture the Flag (not realistic, but fun) to doing a HAVCAP for the AWACS (realistic, but potentially boring). What I'm trying to say there is a happy medium. You don't need to take it up to 11 in the "hardcore scale" of objectives, but just turn it up a notch or 2.

 

In terms of the 104th being content with your formula, theres value in trying other ideas. And because you have a big server, trying a few different ideas benefits a larger amount of players. The community is small enough that its difficult to have 10+ players in multiple servers, and people usually join servers that have other people in em. Its basically a "people join server x, because people are in server x, and want to play with other people, so people join server x." Even if you run some mission once and decide it not worthy of being hosted again, that's fine, at least you tried it. I mean its great that you guys have a popular server and you have found something that works for you, but that should also be an excuse to experiment a little and try something different. I donno, hold a contest or something asking for good all around FC missions. In my mind there is no greater motivation to seeing your own mission hosted on a server (that you don't run yourself) and if people know there is a chance their mission can get hosted by a popular server, I'm quite sure they will put in the required effort to create something of quality. Hell I might even make something for it.

 

 

Riptide,

 

No need to respond to every little criticism as if I called your baby ugly. But also realize that the post of mine that you heavily quoted was not entirely directed at your specific mission but more of the "formula" that the 104th tend to use. It was simply posted in this missions thread for lack of a better location and these sorts of discussions always end up happening in 104th related threads for one reason or another. The other post I had, sure that was directed at your mission, but I don't see how the numbers I pointed out in it are evidence that support your claims. Nor does the fact that strike aircraft apparently get shot down while attacking your boxed target areas is evidence that the objective actually has an effect on the mission. A great example of what I mean by that is a traditional scenario with enemy forces on either side of the "front line". Point defense air defenses near the front matter because they can protect friendlies as they escape back to their side. If these defenses are destroyed it has a measurable effect on what the enemy can do in that airspace. If the scenario has a pre-existing land battle that will occur any CAS or lack of CAS leading up to the battle will help dictate the victor. Target areas tucked away generally do not benefit from either of these as the focus of battle does not always occur near the targets.

 

Generally speaking,

I hope with the evolution of the mission editor and the addition of the scripting engine that we will see more complex and objective oriented missions. Its certainly within the capability of the sim and is something I am working on both in terms of tools (Mist) and actual missions. I know I keep mentioning it, but the scripting engine makes so much more a possibility and has freed me from the shackles of the limited editor GUI. Frankly you guys are still using the capabilities of the FC2 mission editor and I think you can and should do better because you have a popular server.

[RIPTIDE]

But also realize that the post of mine that you heavily quoted was not entirely directed at your specific mission but more of the "formula" that the 104th tend to use. It was simply posted in this missions thread for lack of a better location and these sorts of discussions always end up happening in 104th related threads for one reason or another.

Sure. I get that.

 

The other post I had, sure that was directed at your mission, but I don't see how the numbers I pointed out in it are evidence that support your claims.

You claimed in post #38 that there was an imbalance. IN #43 you said "A purely equal game simply isn't interesting for continued usage."

 

Unless I'm picking you up wrong...?

 

Nor does the fact that strike aircraft apparently get shot down while attacking your boxed target areas is evidence that the objective actually has an effect on the mission.

Sure it does... specifically in this mission, removing the Blue Targets, also removes a Blue SAM Bulkhead on the coastline. The SA-11 which you previously mentioned as part of an imbalance, routinely is destroyed sometime between completion of the First two objectives. It then changes the airwar situation in that area. One compliments the other.

 

Target areas tucked away generally do not benefit from either of these as the focus of battle does not always occur near the targets.

But they aren't tucked away.... see above. Granted, you have an old mission version (v16 maybe). V19 is in rotation, V23 is on hold until the patch comes..)

Generally speaking,

I hope with the evolution of the mission editor and the addition of the scripting engine that we will see more complex and objective oriented missions. Its certainly within the capability of the sim and is something I am working on both in terms of tools (Mist) and actual missions. I know I keep mentioning it, but the scripting engine makes so much more a possibility and has freed me from the shackles of the limited editor GUI. Frankly you guys are still using the capabilities of the FC2 mission editor and I think you can and should do better because you have a popular server.

Yeah the scripting tools are ace. But for our end, at the moment, today, we're not using any of them. They are superfluous. But we will. This will come when we need to up the immersion level. When we force clients to do what we want, we'll reward them with immersion. As it is now, it's entirely acceptable for someone to come on, say nothing, fly around for an hour and leave. At some point in the future we want people to come onto ALL servers and absolutely expect to team up. We want this in peoples minds. We want those that don't to get their ass kicked in such a way that they don't run away, but change for the better. But not today... if we did that now, we'd have an empty server.

 

Lastly...

 

Riptide,

 

No need to respond to every little criticism as if I called your baby ugly.

I didn't consider your comments criticism.. much more of a general commentary that deserved a response.... a response that's not just addressed to you, but the readership. If I thought it was anything less I'd simply tell you to get f'#ked and wouldn't bother. :D:thumbup:

Edited February 24, 2013 by RIPTIDE

[ENO]

As an observer and someone trying to get into mission design I must add that there are only 7 plots in literature- certainly we will be similarly restricted in mission development. Of course mission format won't be able to help but be similar- but frequently you dynamically change the mission just by changing who you fly it with- nevermind change / randomize the location of targets and hazards. Yes- the overall mission hasn't changed but the approach does.

 

Just my thoughts.

[RIPTIDE]

We're on V29 now.

 

A non exhaustive list of changes due to feedback from here and elsewhere:

 

 

• Carrier moved South of previous position, now feet wet West from Sochi
  
• FARPs on both sides move closer to front, given SA-3 system each.
  
• GRAD MLRS systems have been removed because people won't buy fast computers (FPS issue). :music_whistling:
  
• Extra Spawns for MiG-29S and Su-27 on Red at Mineral N'Vodi, and MiG-29S on blue.
  
• AWACS when hit respawns after 30mins on each side
  
• Two Tankers included on both sides, IL-78M for Red, KC-135 for blue, (TACAN set)
  
• 10min repeating message advising what ground units are active
  
• Datalink now is functioning with the release of 1.2.3
  
• Piotr the Great, Patriot, SA-3 now give launch warning with the release of 1.2.3
  
• All spawns are now named according to their callsign. (You can now tie in Radio calls to whoever is in the spawn list)
  

[HiJack]

Great but you realy need to eveluate the mission rotation as now there is no targets, no awacs, no tanker ......

[104th_Maverick]

Good point, we have now added mission rotation triggers set to 6 hours on each mission to avoid this happening again.

 

Thanks!

[HiJack]

Ok that was maby a bit to short. Operation Final Dawn takes more than 6 hours to complete. The A-10C picks one target a time and is realy slow on the battlefield ;)

 

EDIT: With the new script features, why not make a trigger that rotates when 90% of objectives is solved for one of the sides and show a "VICTORY TO <TEAM>" message?

Edited February 28, 2013 by HiJack

[winchesterdelta1]

After reading this topic i think you guy`s made a fine mission. These day`s i occasionally play some FC3 at a friends place so i never played your mission.

But i hope i can still suggest some things.

 

I think there is something missing in the mission you made and generally in most MP missions for public players. And now with this powerfull editor DCS world brings you might be able to pull it off while still having fun.

 

Some more and different type of objectives would bring more dynamic, flexebility and challenge into the mission.

 

*More strategic objectives like bridges, factory`s, EWR sites, munittion depots or anything els you can blow up that has importance for the bigger picture.

*If there is a ground commander in the mission you can give them objectives to attack a certain area or town and hold them for x time before reinforcments are send. So after a while if area this or town that have been conquered, defended or hold for a certain amount of time the mission ends. But if all your ground forces and reinforcements are lost you lose aswell.

 

These objectives will create some intersting side missions.

 

- Bridges that can be destroyed can cause massive delay in reaching the target area for the ground commanders and their human tank drivers. Recon vehicels will have the fun task to find a proper and fast route to the target area, cause you dont want to find out with your tank plattoon when arriving at the bridge that it is destroyed.

 

- CAP`s and point defence will have a meaning now.

 

- Recon airplane and vehicels will have a blast trying to extrapolate routes back to the depots and factory`s. And to find enroute resupply trucks and reinforcements.

 

- You will have the possibility to plan a mission real time with your friends when on the server. ( What i do right now is just imaging that i am on some importend mission with a big plan behind it when playing MP , my imagination makes me keep flying these simms lol).

 

- Kamovs can go on unpredictable hunting missions now. Instead of, fly to point B destroy x amount of targets and try to return in one piece.

 

- AI UAV`s can be implemented in a clever way now with some actual use for them. With this new patch you can direct air assets aswell. So lets say if you send a UAV to direction X and it encounters enemy movement in it`s line of sight it will show that group on the map, as long as it is close enough. Or it can send the coordinates to a list So players in SU-25, A-10`s and kamovs can be send out to investigate and or destroy the targets.

 

- Munition depots are now really valuable with the resource system if used right. Imaging several munition depots around the map for blue and red and from those depots trucks with ammunition or whatever resource is send out to the FARPS and airbases. When they arrive safely they replenish the bases and drive back for another load. If they are not able to return back to the depot they are considered lost and will not spawn.

Lets say there are 5 depots on each side, every depot has 150 trucks and there are 5 bases on both sides to resupply. Offcourse to avoid server and client performance those 150 trucks wont be send out all at once. Lets say if less than 40% of the base supply`s are depleted 6 trucks with protection are send out to resupply. You can do this with factory`s aswell. As long as the factory`s exsist the mission will respawn tanks, SAM sites and other armored vehicels, in limited quantity`s so that the ground commanders can send them out to strategic loactions around the map.

There dont need to be hundreds and hundreds of units on the map at the same time. But just enough to give the ground pounders a great time searching, defending and attacking valuable ground assets that are very mobile, and for great importance to reach your main objective.

And in the meantime you give the fighters above a real meaning to defend key area`s and assets and create temporarily air dominance so your ground pounders and resupply trucks can do their job.

 

- To make it more accesible for the non super hardcore players to defend their own side when joining, all the friendly units and your own sides valuable targets should be displayed on the map.

 

I think it does not have to be to complex. Just designed clever. Just enough to make you feel the mission or tasks you do create a feeling that you actually are helping to win the mission. Enough objectives, side missions and unpredictebility`s will keep the mission fun for a long time. Ander after some time with more modules and features comming out you can make it more complex.

 

I think this would be really good for team play but also the lone wolfs or people that just want to destroy stuff thats just to have some fun for 30 minutes. In one way or another they contribute to the mission. Unless they destroy friendly.

 

I hope this suggestion is not to far fetched.

Edited February 28, 2013 by winchesterdelta1

[winchesterdelta1]

It seems that there is something wrong with my suggestion. Or maybe the wrong post. Because there is no response at all. Is it a stupid idea? Or is it totally of topic and should i create a different topic?

[sorcer3r]

It seems that there is something wrong with my suggestion. Or maybe the wrong post. Because there is no response at all. Is it a stupid idea? Or is it totally of topic and should i create a different topic?

 

I think you made some good points.

Maybe the mission designers from FC2 days need just more time see whats possible in dcs world.

Edited March 2, 2013 by sorcer3r

[104th_Maverick]

It's great feedback Winchester thank you, sorry no one acknowledged this.

 

We will try to implement some of these idea's, unfortunately it's not as simple as it sounds but if we can implement some of these idea's we will!

Edited March 2, 2013 by [Maverick]

[HiJack]

The F10 map view does still not work when pressing the ">Me<" button. This is a bug on the 104th server or missions as it works both in SP and MP elsewhere. The 51st server have removed F10 map view all together! Can you guys really see a pilot taking off without any maps at all? If possible I would in fact like to see the planned route for the flight on the map as that would be the most realistic IRL.

 

138th.Jack

[RIPTIDE]

The F10 map view does still not work when pressing the ">Me<" button. This is a bug on the 104th server or missions as it works both in SP and MP elsewhere. The 51st server have removed F10 map view all together! Can you guys really see a pilot taking off without any maps at all? If possible I would in fact like to see the planned route for the flight on the map as that would be the most realistic IRL.

 

138th.Jack

What bug? Why are you looking for >Me<? If it doesn't work, great! ;)

[RIPTIDE]

It seems that there is something wrong with my suggestion. Or maybe the wrong post. Because there is no response at all. Is it a stupid idea? Or is it totally of topic and should i create a different topic?

Winchester. We removed Combine Arms slots on our missions a while ago to stop problems with possible crashes. With the current advice of 16 player slots now as advice on the latest release, we have about 20 slots free for flyables. I remmeber controlling 20+ armored vehicles and then to my distress watching them all lag around the place once I gave them a command and drive over each other etc.

 

Great ideas... and we have so many ideas that we just can't put into practice right now.

[badger66]

Why be so abrasive riptide ..... it is the 104th forum , of which you are a part of , and someone is asking a reasonable question .

 

If "me" button doesn't work , and it seems that it doesn't work in the 104th only ..... why not just say that you have it disabled , and let everyone else in on your secret , unless there is an issue with asking questions now .

 

And if it doesn't work in the 104th , and it does in other servers , and you don't know why ..... it is a bug , or the designer has overlooked something .

 

Good question HiJack ..... patiently awaiting a proper answer .

[HiJack]

You completly missunderstand the use of the ">Me<" button RIPTIDE. This function shows your placement on the airbase so you easily can find the correct taxiway. This again will solve the problem for a lot of players that do not know every airbase to the pixel as you RIP. And have you ever seen a pilot gotten clearance to takeoff with no map in the cockpit?

 

138th.Jack

[RIPTIDE]

Why be so abrasive riptide ..... it is the 104th forum , of which you are a part of , and someone is asking a reasonable question .

 

.

:music_whistling:Pipe down now badger....

[RIPTIDE]

You completly missunderstand the use of the ">Me<" button RIPTIDE. This function shows your placement on the airbase so you easily can find the correct taxiway. This again will solve the problem for a lot of players that do not know every airbase to the pixel as you RIP. And have you ever seen a pilot gotten clearance to takeoff with no map in the cockpit?

 

138th.Jack

I know what the ME button is used for. If ED have removed it from the F10 ONLY view, then great. I don't think I have EVER used it online. The only reason we tolerate F10 at all on our missions is in the absence of the TC-1 type Map we had with the previous FC2 world. If ED or an ED partner produced a new official map, ... bye bye F10.

 

To anyone that can't find the correct taxiway I suggest doing some SP recon work and consult maps of the airbases.

 

shu already did a pdf on this a long time ago.

 

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/600721/Airfield%20Diagrams.pdf

 

What other servers have >Me< working? I had a quick look in 2 other servers, the Me works is for servers where all allied units are shown. That's never going to happen here.

[HiJack]

No problem. Why not follow the 51st then and remove the map completly ast for now there is no objects on it and its not possible to see your location so why do you have it then?

[bn880]

10min repeating message advising what ground units are active

Saw it in action the other day, well done on that one. Will be even more handy once there are fewer people on the server as in the past.

 

As for completely disabling F10, well, it's important to have a map that's not complete shit like the TAD. (no offense) At least for people not familiar with the region to the Km can figure out some headings and so forth. I often use the "measurement" feature for target locations or bullseye reports. :p We are flying single seaters, so it's hard enough navigation wise even with the map on.

[GGTharos]

I just spot the bullseye location, and I turn off the map on the TAD, too. Don't need F10, either ... maybe you should acquire some planning and navigation skills :P

 

As for completely disabling F10, well, it's important to have a map that's not complete shit like the TAD. (no offense) At least for people not familiar with the region to the Km can figure out some headings and so forth. I often use the "measurement" feature for target locations or bullseye reports. :p We are flying single seaters, so it's hard enough navigation wise even with the map on.

[bn880]

I just spot the bullseye location, and I turn off the map on the TAD, too. Don't need F10, either ... maybe you should acquire some planning and navigation skills :P

 

Yeah, sure.. I don;t have any planning or nav skills. You got me :p

[159th_Falcon]

Yeah, sure.. I don;t have any planning or nav skills. You got me :p

But even whitout those skills, your still entitled of being able to enjoy and play the game.

 

Whit which the map would help greatly.

[bn880]

Actually, fortunately I have pretty good nav skills; but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use all tools at my disposal. And IMO with the pace of online play, and time limitations, and other technical DCS issues which would be equivalent to every 2nd aircraft breaking on you mid flight, it's nice to have some creature comforts in a sim to make up for the BS (and I don't mean Black Shark). ;)

 

Being able to use the F10 map (with everything hidden) takes nav skills already. Simple as that.