104th DCSW Server - Mission 'Final Dawn'

[SFAL]

I like to have more random sub missions.... also more AI controled a/c to escort/kill

at present on the final dawn map periodicly a TU22 get off turns ECM on and we have a warning... no escort.... In real life minimum a pair of Mig23/29 would be escorting this HIGH VALUE asset. Like to see a pair of Mig25 escorting it....

I get the idea of flying across the map in cas missions to have the chance to be engaged... but... how come sochi based su25s do a little flying and they are over gudauta like flys on a heap of s@#*

Like to see some at Batumi or Kutasi....

 

On the F10 issue... I would like to know how do u replace years of training in navigation of a military pilot if not with the F10 >Me< icon...

 

My experience is that apart of the A10 and Ka50 getting accurate pssiton is rather difficult.... unless u have years of experience in navigation.

 

I get the idea of realism and all that... but the aproach for that might be misleading. The >Me< icon is there to replace that set of skill of navigation.... and even then it is still VERY dificult to find targets sometime...

 

I really like to fly on the 104th server great missions and crew on it... but please listen to players who are maybe not so experienced and even with that >Me< "cheat" struggle to fly on...

 

After all the 104th server is there for the public... with random skill sets...

If u guys wanna go completly realistic why not have a passworded server etc?

 

On the side i started pulling the final dawn mission apart to make a realistic SAM eployment with the given units...

I happen to have an experienced look on it(my dad was in the hungarian army for donkys years.....working with SA6 and SA3 systems)

Edited March 2, 2013 by SFAL

[GGTharos]

That sounds like realistic fighter breakage ;)

 

But that aside, I get the time thing - however KNOWING where you are from bullseye and thus where things are with respect to bullseye when someone calls them out etc is a skill that takes some time to learn. After that, you just ... know stuff, you don't need no map - you can tell from the report.

 

Regarding the 104 server, I have a feeling they don't care to have it be exactly a fly to the WP and shoot stuff server. More or less, but not quite.

 

Actually, fortunately I have pretty good nav skills; but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use all tools at my disposal. And IMO with the pace of online play, and time limitations, and other technical DCS issues which would be equivalent to every 2nd aircraft breaking on you mid flight, it's nice to have some creature comforts in a sim to make up for the BS (and I don't mean Black Shark). ;)

 

Being able to use the F10 map (with everything hidden) takes nav skills already. Simple as that.

[bn880]

Just to the 104th guys: Operation Watcher version 22, Blue AWACS message has typo "wet of Kobuleti" :)

 

Yes, I know, I have the bullseye skill, but, with the F10 map you can get even more precise. Anyway, its a map, muck=h like a simple map you might have on your legs IRL, the only cheat is the protractor/ruler which would be difficult.

[winchesterdelta1]

To bad ground commanders lag up the game that much. The game has to mature a little more to be able to do such things i see.

But the idea can also be done without the ground commander.

Thanks for taking my suggestions into consideration.

 

I hope to fly on the 104th server again soon. Looking forward to fly this mission.

[RIPTIDE]

No problem. Why not follow the 51st then and remove the map completly ast for now there is no objects on it and its not possible to see your location so why do you have it then?

C'mon man...

 

The only reason we tolerate F10 at all on our missions is in the absence of the TC-1 type Map we had with the previous FC2 world. If ED or an ED partner produced a new official map, ... bye bye F10.

 

[HiJack]

Don't need it anymore, LCTRL+F10 works fine :)

[RIPTIDE]

I like to have more random sub missions.... also more AI controled a/c to escort/kill

at present on the final dawn map periodicly a TU22 get off turns ECM on and we have a warning... no escort.... In real life minimum a pair of Mig23/29 would be escorting this HIGH VALUE asset. Like to see a pair of Mig25 escorting it....

The first point. The Tu-22M3.. well I love that thing. It's ECM is so strong that you only get burn through at about 10km. You would be surprised how many of them get through right under blue noses. I purposefully have them contrailing to lead on pilots on a chase. The Cat never refuses the mouse. :D

 

As for real life. Well, ironically, the whole idea of bombing Kutaisi came from the bombing of Senaki in 2008. Can you show that the Tu-22M3 that did bomb Senaki/Kholki in 2008 was escorted for example?

 

As for MiG-25, there are independent flights of MiG-25Rs that do fly in this mission. But at the moment they are unrelated to mission objectives. But that will change. I need to build up a general idea of how these are handled by human players.

 

When the map gets sorted out (we have stability issue regarding deactivation triggers etc for AWACS/TANKERS etc) I'll make the Tu-22M3 an intricate part of the mission. At the moment the 104th members that are Beta testers work on the MAP in isolation from me a bit since I'm not one of them. When they are satisfied that they find a configuration that is stable I'll get to develop it more.

 

I get the idea of flying across the map in cas missions to have the chance to be engaged... but... how come sochi based su25s do a little flying and they are over gudauta like flys on a heap of s@#*

Like to see some at Batumi or Kutasi....

You are free to fly them to Batumi or Kutaisi. At your peril. I have done it and so have others. Didn't get home the second time. :D

On the F10 issue... I would like to know how do u replace years of training in navigation of a military pilot if not with the F10 >Me< icon...

 

My experience is that apart of the A10 and Ka50 getting accurate pssiton is rather difficult.... unless u have years of experience in navigation.

 

I get the idea of realism and all that... but the aproach for that might be misleading. The >Me< icon is there to replace that set of skill of navigation.... and even then it is still VERY dificult to find targets sometime...

 

I really like to fly on the 104th server great missions and crew on it... but please listen to players who are maybe not so experienced and even with that >Me< "cheat" struggle to fly on...

 

After all the 104th server is there for the public... with random skill sets...

If u guys wanna go completly realistic why not have a passworded server etc?

I'm still a bit surprised that we have this discussion still on F10. And here was us FC2 fliers getting grief from so called "hard core" DCS pilots. The funny thing is, (not talking about you BTW) that it's the DCS pilots that are wondering where's the labels/F10 All unit view etc etc) Us FC2 warriors don't need no F10 view.

 

ON a serious note, if I can learn where I am by looking out the window and glancing at the HSI, then ANYONE can. With a bit of time and practice. F10 is there, ONLY because there is no MAP suitable in circulation. It was NEVER there where we had FC2. It would have been unthinkable.

 

It just takes practice. And this is a Flight Sim. You need time and more time to get familiar with the surroundings. After a while you'll even know where all the towns are when people say they are just 10 clicks South East of Gori, you'll know exactly where that is. There is no substitute for ... just knowing. Using F10 with a Me cheat or any other cheat is counter productive and you would not progress far.

 

On the side i started pulling the final dawn mission apart to make a realistic SAM eployment with the given units...

I happen to have an experienced look on it(my dad was in the hungarian army for donkys years.....working with SA6 and SA3 systems)

If you have any interesting bits to tell me in PM please do. I have listened to a few opinions from people on TS that have/had real life experience or knew someone who had with IAD systems and I always welcome more.

[RIPTIDE]

Regarding the 104 server, I have a feeling they don't care to have it be exactly a fly to the WP and shoot stuff server. More or less, but not quite.

~ Your Mileage May Vary as they say. Notwithstanding the earlier discussions on 'Formula' the themes change a bit for each mission.

[Frostie]

No problem. Why not follow the 51st then and remove the map completly ast for now there is no objects on it and its not possible to see your location so why do you have it then?

On the 51st server it wasn't disabled for a purpose, it was avaliable in 1.2.2 and it will be enabled eventually for 1.2.3.

 

The only reason I want it there is to use for 9-line readouts and village/town locating, all mission related. Using it for <me> finding your current position is the downside. Thankfully the <me> feature looks bust in 1.2.3.

[HiJack]

I don't understand what the problem is when a player finds his own location on an else completly empty map. Can you please explain the problem in that? What can possibly be gained in a combat situation with this information?

[BRooDJeRo]

I've started memorising every damn hill in DCS since i've played on 104th server. That seemed to help a bit in terms of situational awareness. :music_whistling:

 

Personaly i like to at least see the coalition you're in on the map, when the mission doesn't show this, then it's most likely a feature in difficultylevel. No outside F10 view is similar, however when it's turned off, you miss a vital part in beauty of a game. I'm afraid the 104th puts more weight on realism than showing off beauty. It's kind of their opinion and view on how to play DCS and they're entitled to that opinion.

Edited March 3, 2013 by BRooDJeRo

[HiJack]

I've started memorising every damn hill in DCS since i've played on 104th server. That seemed to help a bit in terms of situational awareness. :music_whistling:

I know this is going to give RIP som warm feelings:

 

 

 

Press "LCtrl+F10" and jump straight to your current location! :D

 

 

[Frostie]

I don't understand what the problem is when a player finds his own location on an else completly empty map. Can you please explain the problem in that? What can possibly be gained in a combat situation with this information?

Lets say you're flying in a server not specifically the 104th and you fly SEAD in a Toad NOE through the Caucausus mountain valleys with the goal of heading to Sochi and obliterating some weak air defences by popping up at the last minute to unleash hell.

To do this would need careful planning and SA, a handy skill learned, or you could justy use <ME>.

That is why it's a noob tool or cheat tool.

[RIPTIDE]

I know this is going to give RIP som warm feelings:

 

 

 

Press "LCtrl+F10" and jump straight to your current location! :D

 

 

 

[HiJack]

I just give you guys up....

[Frostie]

I just give you guys up....

Finding yourself on the map is not really an issue I suppose any pilot can take a satnav up with him and be able to see his location instantly. But when people are moaning about the lack of externals and the ability to see all your ground units on the map it makes me wonder how serious these people are about combat flight and mission participation, maybe they'd be more suited to FSX watching their A320 do fly bys during their 5km journey to the next runway.

[HiJack]

I do not want any units on the map! You must read my previous posts.

[HiJack]

As of now the tactical map is available to download from the user files! Can you please remove the F10 map from the 104th server as this is completely unrealistic.

 

138th.Jack

[BRooDJeRo]

Finding yourself on the map is not really an issue I suppose any pilot can take a satnav up with him and be able to see his location instantly. But when people are moaning about the lack of externals and the ability to see all your ground units on the map it makes me wonder how serious these people are about combat flight and mission participation, maybe they'd be more suited to FSX watching their A320 do fly bys during their 5km journey to the next runway.

 

Nothing is absolute in life. There's also people that like both hardcore and very casual. Telling people to stay away because they're slightly more casual is very short around the corner. Plus. I'm not sure if you've noticed that Mr. Wags last online promotional adventure was smack in the middle of mainstream FSX players. A big chunk of extra FSX players will help DCS become better too. There's more money on the table.....

 

[roleplaying]PS. Do is see a 51st pretending to have a voice in 104th? Isn't that like scandinavia taxing the wearing of burka's in Saudi Arabia?[/roleplaying]

Edited March 4, 2013 by BRooDJeRo

[RIPTIDE]

[roleplaying]PS. Do is see a 51st pretending to have a voice in 104th? Isn't that like scandinavia taxing the wearing of burka's in Saudi Arabia?[/roleplaying]

Frostie's opinion is welcome and noted as usual. ;)

[RIPTIDE]

As of now the tactical map is available to download from the user files! Can you please remove the F10 map from the 104th server as this is completely unrealistic.

 

138th.Jack

I get confused sometimes, HiJack. Did you want the F10 view or not? :huh:

[HiJack]

You should decide the fate of the F10 map on the 104th server RIPTIDE.

 

And I do not want a map with all or some units showing. Ask yourself, do you think an 80’s jet fighter pilot takes off from somewhere In Georgia and do not have a tactical map with him in the cockpit? Does he bring a map that shows nothing at all, no markings, no route, and no info at all except the geometrical information? So what is it to make of this regarding the ingame map of DCS World, does a clean map give a tactical advantage? Does a clean map give the same possibilities to orientate as the map the pilot has in his hands? So I ask you again, is it real to have a map? Or is it more real to have no map at all?

 

And as for the example of tactical advantage Frostie explains I do not agree at all! It will of course need practice and skill but showing the clean map gives no advantage over the enemy at all in the situation he describes. You can of course do this tactically up front of the mission but then you would have a map in the cockpit with the selected route, IP, target, and egress marked. It would not be a clean map. I wanted you to explain the advantage in having the clean F10 map active as I cannot see any. If the ingame map should simulate something real the pilot has in the cockpit it would show your route, IP, expected target position at a minimum. It would also have to be possible to draw on it with a marker pen to make notes and corrections; it is not possible to do this in DCS World at this stage. So what is more real? The 51st server disabled the map completely and I recommended that the 104th do the same if you think that is the most real option. For me personally it is fine with the map on as I feel no player can get an tactical advantage over me when having it activated. For the “>Me<” button on the map to work the mission must be redone in version 1.2.3. You should test if enabling all views, saving the mission to a new filename, and then disabling the views again will solve the problem.

 

Regarding what options the 104th use on the server is completely up to you.

 

138th.Jack

[Frostie]

Nothing is absolute in life. There's also people that like both hardcore and very casual. Telling people to stay away because they're slightly more casual is very short around the corner. Plus. I'm not sure if you've noticed that Mr. Wags last online promotional adventure was smack in the middle of mainstream FSX players. A big chunk of extra FSX players will help DCS become better too. There's more money on the table.....

 

[roleplaying]PS. Do is see a 51st pretending to have a voice in 104th? Isn't that like scandinavia taxing the wearing of burka's in Saudi Arabia?[/roleplaying]

 

Just like you I'm entitled to an opinion on the matter, the fact it falls in line with how the 104th has run their server for the last several years has nothing to do with trying to have a voice for them. If I agreed with you that having externals and units on the map as being a great idea my opinion in your eyes would be just, but because I don't agree with you and express that I prefer how the 104th operate their server you discredit my opinion and try and call foul.

 

There is no right or wrong way to play DCS, the 104th choose a serious pvp way.

Tell me why should a successful and entertaining pvp server suddenly change its values to suit one guy risking alienating so many long term participants. Pleasing everyone is impossible.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Frostie

[BRooDJeRo]

Pls don't mix up what was meant serious and what not.

 

Forum error: Unknown message function detected [roleplaying][/roleplaying]

 

To be honest, your opinion is fine too and theres no real feelings about relationships. However hold tight, you mind see more casual flightsimmers. They will yank the tranny alot harder lol.

[Speed]

As for real life. Well, ironically, the whole idea of bombing Kutaisi came from the bombing of Senaki in 2008. Can you show that the Tu-22M3 that did bomb Senaki/Kholki in 2008 was escorted for example?

It was Kopitnari airport they bombed- three or four of them bombed it (forget which). We refer to Kopitnari airport in game as "Kutaisi" usually.

 

To be fair, the only aircraft the Tu-22s had to potentially face off against when bombing Kopitnari airport in 2008 were Georgian Su-25As. They did not have to worry about ANY fighter aircraft, as the Georgian air force does not have any. Things would be different if they had to face Su-27s, MiG-29s, F-15s, etc. I can't imagine that Russia would send its valuable Tu-22 bombers into contested airspace without an escort...