please allow to install BS2 upgrade without installing BS1

[pocococo]

I own both Black Shark 1 and the Black Shark 2 upgrade. I do not currently have BS1 installed.

 

Now I would like to play BS2, but it's a hassle - a waste of my time - to have to install BS1 in order to play BS2, when I have no intention of playing BS1. It also means that I have to hold onto the BS1 DVD or download BS1, which again takes up my time and download bandwidth.

 

I would like Eagle to add to BS2 the capability to accept and activate my BS1 key and then my BS2 key in sequence, without having BS1 on the hard drive. This would be much more user-friendly.

[KaspeR32]

A lot of people have been wanting the same thing. =\

[molleh]

I agree, its a big pain.

[Ramstein]

yes, I held back, but have had enough of this problems the game now doesn't even see bs1.... when I try to update my bs2, after the patch (1.24) it gives me activation error) this upgrade thing is a mess and is making people pay 2x.

 

I finally got it working,, I went in a deleted bs2, and re-installed it again... now everything seems too work offline..

I swear I will get bs2 and pay 2x when the deal comes around again...

 

just too big of a hassle

Edited May 4, 2013 by Ramstein

[Weta43]

"A lot of people have been wanting the same thing. =\ "

Very likely, and it's a shame people have to go through some inconvenient steps.

Except :

1/ the upgrade is cheaper than the full game,

2/ It's only an upgrade if you have the previous version, and the installer can't tell you really have a cherished box version of the original Black Shark if it's in your desk drawer but not on your hard-drive.

 

If the (cheaper) upgrade option didn't check you owned the previous version, would E.D. just leave it to people's honesty to only buy the upgrade version if they'd actually already bought the original ?

Maybe I'm overly suspicious, but I'm sure some people would take advantage of that trust...

 

So yes, I'm sure "A lot of people have been wanting the same thing ", but sometimes the virtuous majority have to suffer for the sins of the few...

[Jarhead0331]

"A lot of people have been wanting the same thing. =\ "

Very likely, and it's a shame people have to go through some inconvenient steps.

Except :

1/ the upgrade is cheaper than the full game,

2/ It's only an upgrade if you have the previous version, and the installer can't tell you really have a cherished box version of the original Black Shark if it's in your desk drawer but not on your hard-drive.

 

If the (cheaper) upgrade option didn't check you owned the previous version, would E.D. just leave it to people's honesty to only buy the upgrade version if they'd actually already bought the original ?

Maybe I'm overly suspicious, but I'm sure some people would take advantage of that trust...

 

So yes, I'm sure "A lot of people have been wanting the same thing ", but sometimes the virtuous majority have to suffer for the sins of the few...

 

I have no objection if the upgrade installation checks for a legal version of BS1 on my harddrive. What I object to is the fact that the check doesn't work. I have a legal copy of BS1 on my harddrive and the upgrade installer REFUSES to identify it. I have bought BS1 four (4) times. First the Russian version when it was released in beta. Then the English version when it was released for download. Then a boxed version when I saw it on the shelf in Bestbuy and finally on Steam when I saw it on sale. To not be able to install the upgrade version which I purchased for $19.99 is unacceptable. ED needs to fix this...

[Weta43]

That is a problem, the problem has been noted (they will fix it), and a separate thread exists about this.

It's not what the thread title asks about though...

[zaelu]

I am sorry Weta43 but please look at this screenshot.

 

How did we payed less?

 

DCS Black Shark 1 is now 9.99$ and the upgrade is 29.99$ while the full DCS BS2 is 39.99$

 

We the ones that supported the product from the bigging (needless to say that I own also Lock On and FC1 so I payed for the free DCS World a bit) are now like second class citizens... especially when there is a sale and BS2 costs 20$.

 

Who in the right mind buys DCS BS1 to play it stand alone? Especially now when DCS World is free? Why? Is it an alternate product? No... is just BS2 without cockpit shadows and some fixes (which normally should be part of patches but that is a second discussion).

 

And what is what we ask? We don't ask for having two games BS1 and BS2 for lower prices (not that we would anyway cause we payed 63$ for two games already that costs now 40$ and 9$... so even if it was so it could not be possible). We ask for our serials to be merged into a single one. We don't want BS1 anymore we want just BS2 so we could install it straight forward into DCS World when we wanted.

 

That's all... one single serial.

 

I have a friend that said it had enough and at last sale he bought again DCS BS2 at 20$ although he had BS1 and BS1 upgrade. Should all of us do the same? Is that "fair" for you?

 

Do please tell me where I am wrong in my judgment.

 

I know you are a respected beta tester and maybe if you agree a bit with this you could tell ED about this minor issue and maybe a solution for long term supporters will be find so they will not be harass with this.

 

[Midnight]

"And what is what we ask? We don't ask for having two games BS1 and BS2 for lower prices (not that we would anyway cause we payed 63$ for two games already that costs now 40$ and 9$... so even if it was so it could not be possible). We ask for our serials to be merged into a single one. We don't want BS1 anymore we want just BS2 so we could install it straight forward into DCS World when we wanted.

 

That's all... one single serial."

 

Am in agreement with this^^^^

[Weta43]

DCS Black Shark 1 is now 9.99$ and the upgrade is 29.99$ while the full DCS BS2 is 39.99$

 

You answered your own question.

 

If there were no check for BS_1, anyone from this point forward could use an upgrade version to go straight to BS_2 for $29.99 - saving themselves $9.99

Edited May 4, 2013 by Weta43

[EtherealN]

I own both Black Shark 1 and the Black Shark 2 upgrade. I do not currently have BS1 installed.

 

Now I would like to play BS2, but it's a hassle - a waste of my time - to have to install BS1 in order to play BS2, when I have no intention of playing BS1. It also means that I have to hold onto the BS1 DVD or download BS1, which again takes up my time and download bandwidth.

 

I would like Eagle to add to BS2 the capability to accept and activate my BS1 key and then my BS2 key in sequence, without having BS1 on the hard drive. This would be much more user-friendly.

 

Well, first, the need for BS1 with the Upgrade release of BS2 was of course known at the time. It's not optimal, but there was the option to purchase a "full" BS2 and thus not have this problem. (And by holding out for a sale, you could have gotten it cheaper than the list price of the Upgradee.)

 

Simply accepting the key from BS1 would of course be nice, but there is a problem there: if BS1 is not actually activated, you can then use any key. Yours, a friends, etcetera. That's why this was not done. (Or at least one of the reasons.)

 

I am sorry Weta43 but please look at this screenshot.

 

How did we payed less?

 

DCS Black Shark 1 is now 9.99$ and the upgrade is 29.99$ while the full DCS BS2 is 39.99$

 

Faulty logic, unfortunately.

You paid $49,99 for BS1 when it was relatively new, and had it for (nearly) 3 years.

When the sequel was developed, you were offered a discount on it. This is extremely fair; I have neever been offered a discount on an FSX game, Battlefield XYZ etcetera just because I owned the prequel.

 

ED didn't have to do that.

 

Who in the right mind buys DCS BS1 to play it stand alone? Especially now when DCS World is free? Why? Is it an alternate product? No... is just BS2 without cockpit shadows and some fixes (which normally should be part of patches but that is a second discussion).

 

Ah, so please list the other developers that continue to support their product, free of charge, 3 years after release? I can think of only one - Blizzard in the case of Starcraft 2 - but in that case it's funded by the sale of an expansion.

 

As you said though, that's a second discussion and one that has been done to death.

 

And as for who in their right mind would purchase BS1 to play it - someone that has a system that can't handle DCS World. There's a lot of those people out there, and quite often they're still sitting on those old computers specifically because they cannot afford to purchase a new computer.

 

We don't ask for having two games BS1 and BS2 for lower prices (not that we would anyway cause we payed 63$ for two games already that costs now 40$ and 9$...

 

Not sure why you are surprised that games become cheaper a while after release. Since when is this extraordinary?

 

And having purchased BS1 at it's launch price is NOT an argument here. You bought that product when it was new. You paid new price therefore. People can wait until prices go down, like they always do with computer games, but that's at the trade of not being able to play until later. Up to you what you want there.

 

When Weta says "cheaper", he means specifically at the point of purchase for BS2.

And yes, if you own BS1, you CAN get BS2 cheaper than someone that does not. That's not something that can be debated, it's just fact. ;)

 

We ask for our serials to be merged into a single one. We don't want BS1 anymore we want just BS2 so we could install it straight forward into DCS World when we wanted.

 

Well, unfortunately that's not possible. Not "business" impossible, "technically" impossible. Only way would be someone manually going through these purchases, blacklisting your BS1 and BS2 Upgrade serials and replacing them with a BS2 "full" serial. (And that part is "business" impossible, since that would be extreemely expensive.)

 

I have a friend that said it had enough and at last sale he bought again DCS BS2 at 20$ although he had BS1 and BS1 upgrade. Should all of us do the same? Is that "fair" for you?

 

Once upon a time you made the decision that a $20 dollar discount was worth living with the requirement of having to keep BS1 around. So yes, that's fair, since you made the choice.

 

At the end of the day, things are what they are, and all of this is things you knew when you purchased.

I really wish we could do something better for you in this, but the hurdles are just too big*, just like when the intention was to never have a Black Shark 2 but rather simply patch BS1 - that was the plan. But it became simply way too expensive, so the choice was between doing BS2 or dropping BS entirely. However, as a mid-level, the discounted Upgrade was offered, but with the requirement of BS1 clearly stated.

 

* With one caveat: whenever I state that something probably can't be done, it typically takes about 2 days for a dev to say he solved it in some way I didn't think about. :P So if things hold up, me giving "bad news" is actually a good thing. :P

Edited May 4, 2013 by EtherealN

[Yellonet]

You answered your own question.

 

If there were no check for BS_1, anyone from this point forward could use an upgrade version to go straight to BS_2 for $29.99 - saving themselves $9.99

Agreed, but there's really no need to force people to install BS1, why not ask for the BS1 serial key when installing BS2?

[EtherealN]

Agreed, but there's really no need to force people to install BS1, why not ask for the BS1 serial key when installing BS2?

 

Because if the key has not gone through the activation process, this is extremely easy to exploit.

 

I buy 1 BS1 key.

All my friends use that key to activate BS2 Upgrade.

[BIGNEWY]

why not put your BS1 key into the website under the BS2 Upgrade so it knows you have it and can not be used by anyone else as it is tied to your account ?

[EtherealN]

BS1 does not have that limitation.

 

Some issues:

1) Needs to support BS1 on Steam as well! And that one uses Steam DRM. (And Steam doesn't even allow you to ever see the serial number for those. Yes, there are numbers, but you're not allowed to see them; the number simply gets linked to your Steam account and thus you're not in the "need-to-know" about what serial number is. :P And of course, most of the time Valve is right in that - you don't need to know and it would only confuse you - but situations like this are different, but too rare to be counted upon to change how their system works.)

2) BS1 uses a different, older, version of SF ProActive.

3) When activating your game, you don't talk to ED servers. You talk to SF servers. (This is part of the "insurance" thing that even if ED were to go out of business, your keys will still work.)

Edited May 4, 2013 by EtherealN

[Yellonet]

Because if the key has not gone through the activation process, this is extremely easy to exploit.

 

I buy 1 BS1 key.

All my friends use that key to activate BS2 Upgrade.

Would there really be a problem with supplying the key for BS1, getting that activated (without installing the game) and then doing the same for BS2?

 

This is just a perfect example of DRM punishing only those who want to pay for the product :noexpression:

[EtherealN]

You can't activate something that isn't installed. (That's a TECHNICAL limitation. You just can't, unless you want the "old" StarForce back with some drivers on your computer. THEN it could be done. ;) )

 

And no, this is not a case of anything like that.

 

BS2 Upgrade was ALWAYS marketed with the EXPLICIT (even printed in red text) caution that BS1 must be installed and activated.

 

Anyone that didn't want that, could purchase the normal BS2 distribution.

 

Seriously, any other company wouldn't even consider doing a discount offer like that, at all. And while I don't know the exact reasons (never asked), I suspect reactions like this is exactly why there's no such offer available for FC3. Offering such discounts clearly doesn't work, because people that make use of them complain about them. ;)

[zaelu]

Faulty logic, unfortunately.

You paid $49,99 for BS1 when it was relatively new, and had it for (nearly) 3 years.

When the sequel was developed, you were offered a discount on it. This is extremely fair;

 

Sorry... I don't see my fault in logic.

 

1. I payed 63$ for BS2. When it was 50$... now is 40 no problem with this so don't drag it in that way. I'm sure 5 years from now BS2 will be free in DCS World as it is Su25T now (for what many of us payed gladly at that time... no problem with it).

 

2. I was offered a discount cause BS2 is not an entirely new game from BS1 so the difference in price of 13$ was actually representing, in my opinion and most probably EDs too, the difference between the two. Is not like DCS BS2 actually represents Ka52 isn't it?

 

3 Although possible at that time, someone could have purchase BS1 at 50$ and then the next day BS2 at 50$... I think we could agree that that would have been just unfortunate for that individual and should not be the norm for all. The difference between BS2 and BS1 would not justify these similar prices from that particula case and was in EDs mind from the beginning as they put this discount from almost day one.

4. You cannot activate BS1 into DCS World as far as I know!! BS1 works as stand alone and is called DCS Black Shark!! You can activate BS2 Upgrade into DCS World and instead of asking for an install of DCS BS1 it should simply ask for a serial of BS1 especially since there is the same installer. Is that simple. Or... even simpler it should provide a mean to transform those serials into a single one.

 

Please, we shouldn't go into argument about how other developer supports for x years it's product. There are many. More so. When you have seen the last support for DCS BS1... Patch etc? The support we ask is for management of licensee not anything else.

 

I said it in other similar thread a while ago. I talked with live support of EA (chat, everything was solved in 2 days pronto... yeah... big money...) that I want my Battlefield 2 with expansions and Battlefield 2142 to be moved from my DVD + DVD serials based to Origin account. They said OK... give us the serials and we would do exactly this. I gave them the serials on a mail (unencrypted mind you :) ) and after checking them in 48 hours I had those games moved to Origin account and I can throw away the DVDs now. Needless to say that I never played Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142 anyway... I never said I would but they did it because it was the logic thing to do for their customer. Heck... they even gave me veteran status on BF3 like I was having all the Battlefield games... 1942, Vietnam, etc.

 

Just to see what's the logic about it, I say it should be available for customers of ED and Ubi to also insert their LockOn DVD serial into DCS site and have DCS FC3 serial activated without any other scratching left ear with right hand installs of obsolete games that don't proper work anyway on Win7 64bits. These verifications of installs are just a bureaucratic mess that can be solved elegantly in the web site interface.

 

So please tell me why should actual checks of BS1 would not be made via serials instead of current installs? If you can make a software that can check 2 serials in two installs why not make the same software check just those serials and then why not make the software transform those 2 serials in a new one called BS2 FULL? And please stop insinuating "we payed less"... Cause my 63$ are not less that a new customer would pay on a sale on BS2 Full . He gets the same game as me not one with gun barrel and the front wheel missing. And surely I don't feel like I own much more because I can actually install DCS BS stand alone and do nothing different with it... actually less.

 

 

PS We should also make clear that this small issue is not about EDs asking for some money that some of us don't want to pay. there is no money envolved here... just serials management. Also it should be noted that old customers that use the same product as new customers are not less customers... they didn't even payed less in the first place.

Edited May 4, 2013 by zaelu

[EtherealN]

1. I payed 63$ for BS2.

 

No, you paid $12.99 for BS2. Says so clearly on your screenshot.

 

2. I was offered a discount cause BS2 is not an entirely new game from BS1 so the difference in price of 13$ was actually representing, in my opinion and most probably EDs too, the difference between the two. Is not like DCS BS2 actually represents Ka52 isn't it?

 

BS2 is a new game the same way FSX was.

Protip: Battlefield 3 wasn't a "new" game either, by your logic. It was an upgrade of what they already had in Bad Company 2.

 

3 Although possible at that time, someone could have purchase BS1 at 50$ and then the next day BS2 at 50$... I think we could agree that that would have been just unfortunate for that individual and should not be the norm for all.

 

No, that would not have been possible.

BS1 prices were decreased way before BS2 was released.

 

The difference between BS2 and BS1 would not justify these similar prices from that particula case and was in EDs mind from the beginning as they put this discount from almost day one.

 

That is your opinion.

It was my opinion that Battlefield 3 didn't offer enough new to be worth the money, so I didn't buy it.

But the "justification" you seek is easy to find: people paid for it. They wanted it, at that price. You see - how YOU evaluate something isn't how everyone else evaluates it. It's only how you evaluate it. If you don't like the value, you don't buy.

 

4. You cannot activate BS1 into DCS World as far as I know!!

 

So?

 

You can activate BS2 Upgrade into DCS World and instead of asking for an install of DCS BS1 it should simply ask for a serial of BS1 especially since there is the same installer. Is that simple. Or... even simpler it should provide a mean to transform those serials into a single one.

 

I love it when people say something is "that simple". :)

Well, first off: no, it's not the same installer. Of course it isn't! If it was the same installer, then why don't you install BS1 with the BS2 Module installer?

 

You are missing an extremely important point here: the fact that BS2 and BS2 Upgrade are in the same installer does NOT mean that BS1 is in the same installer, nor that it can install BS1. And since BS1 is what has to be confirmed with the Upgrade, how does that matter?

 

Please, we shouldn't go into argument about how other developer supports for x years it's product. There are many. More so. When you have seen the last support for DCS BS1... Patch etc? The support we ask is for management of licensee not anything else.

 

Doesn't contradict my point, now does it?

But I'll note that A-10C is still being updated, and it's now past 3 years since it became available.

What I was questioning is specifically your assertion that such support is a given. And I then ask where in the marketplace this ever happens.

 

I said it in other similar thread a while ago. I talked with live support of EA [...]

 

Afraid I don't see the relevance.

Electronic Arts is a company with over 4 billion dollars yearly revenue that operate a store application, having almost 10 000 employees.

Eagle Dynamics is a small, independent, company that is practically selfpublished and has less people in TOTAL than just the Q/A department at EA DICE...

 

ED has a website.

EA has a publishing empire.

See the difference?

 

I'll help: EA owns their own DRM system. Just like Valve does for Steam. Of course they can do all kinds of stuff with their own system.

ED can't afford to develop such a system, it has to purchase this service.

 

Just to see what's the logic about it, I say it should be available for customers of ED and Ubi to also insert their LockOn DVD serial into DCS site and have DCS FC3 serial activated without any other scratching left ear with right hand installs of obsolete games that don't proper work anyway on Win7 64bits. These verifications of installs are just a bureaucratic mess that can be solved elegantly in the web site interface.

 

Which Lockon DVD Serial?

Lock On doesn't have serial numbers. ;)

I've had 3-4 versions (including one that was a review code), and I have never, ever, had to use a serial number for it, because it authenticates with the CD.

 

And btw, if it was up to ED, there would be no LOMAC requirement at all with the FC series. But it's not up to ED. Ubisoft owns that stuff.

 

Oh, and LOMAC works PERFECTLY on Win7 64-bit. I played a campaign on it just the other month. ;)

 

So please tell me why should actual checks of BS1 would not be made via serials instead of current installs?

 

Invite you to read the previous posts in this very same thread. It's all in there.

Edited May 4, 2013 by EtherealN

[Cnuke]

Just a small detail to add:

 

Older starforce with BS1 is not giving new activations, to go along with your BS2 upgrade.

 

So next thing could happen:

So when you have renewing activations on the BS2 upgrade license, You might not be able to install because you don't have any on BS1.

 

 

 

A wish:

Also I agree to merge licenses;

Registered BS1 serials & BS 2 upgrade into a new serial BS 2.

[EtherealN]

BS1 serials are replaced upon request.

[Cnuke]

BS1 serials are replaced upon request.

 

Thanks for mentioning that!

 

I think it would be logical to not sell black shark 1 anymore. So there is no need for selling the upgrade as well. And over time maybe execute a solution.

I'm all in for promoting DCS World and all it's future possibilities.

 

 

But I can't stress enough that it's fantastic to experience these wonderful products!

:pilotfly:

[EtherealN]

Not selling BS1 wouldn't cause the "need" for the Upgrade to cease. It's there for people who already have BS1, as a "thankyou". I don't have the exact sale numbers for BS1 - I know it still sells, but not in great quantity. It's basically people with very old computers - or people that just wants something that costs about a beer. (And yes, 10 dollars is a beer, here. :P )

[Yellonet]

I've done some testing, and it seems to be possible to install BS2 upgrade without installing BS1 first. Sort of.

You still to use your activated key, so it should still be ok legally speaking.

I'll get back with more info.

Or is this something that will get me banned even though you have to use an active key for BS1? :noexpression:

[zaelu]

EtherealN you are trying to break my post into bits so it will fit your interpretations. I can't agree with this way of debating. Also if you bring your opinions that bf3 for you is just an upgrade for bf2... I wont procede with it... is your opinion.

 

The fact is BS installer could provide option to insert as a check the serial of bs1 and then allow activation with a serial of bs2 upgrade.

Even for FC3 after an instalation it could generate a serial that the customer then uploads to DCS site for further FC3 instalations. I agree this one could be complicated as it involves also Ubi.

 

PS What kind of beer is that!?! :d

Edited May 4, 2013 by zaelu