NeF Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Hi there, I'm trying to find some info about the range of the different sam systems we have in DCS. My idea is to know what kind of air defence I can bomb in ccrp with guided bombs, and how high I have to be. Had some good results on iglas, shilkas, tunguskas, but is it possible to get heavier systems just staying above their range ? If anyone knows, I'd like to see some comparison charts of sam systems and their range envelope.. if it exists, please :yay: Neffertitties.
NeF Posted May 21, 2013 Author Posted May 21, 2013 Interresting :) Thanks for the quick answer. But info on range here is a bit basic. For example they say tunguska's range is 8 Km. But you can safely fly 7000m above him without beeing bothered. Any more detailed documents on sam envelope ?
ericoh Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) That is due to gravity. The missile cannot go 8km straight up. Im going to try to find somethign else that i saw once. EDIT: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84314 Here is a small SAM List, it also shows Maximum altitudes. Edited May 21, 2013 by ericoh 1
ED Team NineLine Posted May 21, 2013 ED Team Posted May 21, 2013 Hi there, I'm trying to find some info about the range of the different sam systems we have in DCS. My idea is to know what kind of air defence I can bomb in ccrp with guided bombs, and how high I have to be. Had some good results on iglas, shilkas, tunguskas, but is it possible to get heavier systems just staying above their range ? If anyone knows, I'd like to see some comparison charts of sam systems and their range envelope.. if it exists, please :yay: Neffertitties. For the heavier systems, get CA and engage with a tank platoon :) Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**
ericoh Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 I was just reading in the small list: SA-10 Speed: Mach 6, is that true? Thats scary fast.
GGTharos Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 They have a scary big motor. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
GGTharos Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 If it isn't an IR guided missile, don't try to overfly it. There are very few exceptions, like the tunguska and the Roland, both of which are fairly short-ranged systems. Generally speaking, you can pretty much forget about over-flying an SA-2/3/4/5/6/10/11/15, likewise with HAWK and PATRIOT. Interresting :) Thanks for the quick answer. But info on range here is a bit basic. For example they say tunguska's range is 8 Km. But you can safely fly 7000m above him without beeing bothered. Any more detailed documents on sam envelope ? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
NeF Posted May 21, 2013 Author Posted May 21, 2013 Taking good note...:smartass: Almost needed a diaper change on this: SA-10 Max altitude: 98 500 ft (Smells like fear)
SimFreak Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 If it isn't an IR guided missile, don't try to overfly it. There are very few exceptions, like the tunguska and the Roland, both of which are fairly short-ranged systems. Generally speaking, you can pretty much forget about over-flying an SA-2/3/4/5/6/10/11/15, likewise with HAWK and PATRIOT. From what I read there is a safe spot right over top of some sam system....radar can't go to certain depression. Difficulty is getting to that spot. There is a nice article I saw about SA-2 in Vietnam and how that spot causes limitations of engagement from operator perspective and how pilots used it to their advantage....
GGTharos Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 That's an SA-2, which is older than you and I combined (probably, I don't actually know :D ). Any modern SAM employing a PESA or AESA antenna which will usually be tilted up won't have that problem - not to mention that you're just not getting on top of it to begin with. From what I read there is a safe spot right over top of some sam system....radar can't go to certain depression. Difficulty is getting to that spot. There is a nice article I saw about SA-2 in Vietnam and how that spot causes limitations of engagement from operator perspective and how pilots used it to their advantage.... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
SimFreak Posted May 21, 2013 Posted May 21, 2013 Indeed. Mostly command guided is effected by this + min range + other issues. Too bad ED removed SA-2. I enjoyed playing with it.
MaverickF22 Posted June 23, 2013 Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) Generally speaking, you can pretty much forget about over-flying an SA-2/3/4/5/6/10/11/15, likewise with HAWK and PATRIOT. 15 maybe not..., like tunguska's, the TOR sam system has a height engagement limit way lower than the ceiling of fighters like the F-15, or even the A-10's! I don't know where do you guys get your data from, but it seems wikipedia always knows something else, so i'd also want to know the truth if you have it better! Here are some maximum horizontal (depends on more aspects, like speed/direction) and vertical ranges (generally less affected by target aspects like speed/direction) limitations, of 3 known mobile sam systems in the sim, as they are given by wikipedia: 9K22 Tunguska: Maximum Horizontal (best case): ~8km Maximum Vertical : ~3.5km height Almighty TOR: Maximum Horizontal (best case): ~12km Maximum Vertical: ~6km (6000m) 9K33 Osa: Maximum Horizontal (best case): ~15km with the latest 9M33M3 missile Maximum Vertical: ~12km with the latest 9M33M3 missile Edited June 23, 2013 by MaverickF22 Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on! Making DCS a better place for realism. Let it be, ED!
MaverickF22 Posted June 23, 2013 Posted June 23, 2013 In DCS's encyclopedia we can see that only the maximum horizontal ranges are told, and indeed they match those from wikipedia..., although, when being engaged by an SA-15 or Tunguska, their missiles reach far higher altitudes than those that are told by wiki, so something isn't right.;) I trust ED will take the time and change the missile's drags or thrust levels so they could only reach realistic altitudes and/or horizontal ranges. Have a good day, Mav. Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on! Making DCS a better place for realism. Let it be, ED!
ED Team NineLine Posted June 23, 2013 ED Team Posted June 23, 2013 You are taking into account for the elevation of where the unit is sitting of course right? As for A2G missiles, I think they have said there are plans for them down the road after A2A missiles, but not 100% sure if there is a plan in place... In DCS's encyclopedia we can see that only the maximum horizontal ranges are told, and indeed they match those from wikipedia..., although, when being engaged by an SA-15 or Tunguska, their missiles reach far higher altitudes than those that are told by wiki, so something isn't right.;) I trust ED will take the time and change the missile's drags or thrust levels so they could only reach realistic altitudes and/or horizontal ranges. Have a good day, Mav. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**
Brisse Posted June 23, 2013 Posted June 23, 2013 I bet if ED made AFM for SAM's, then maximum vertical range will decrease.
Robin_Hood Posted June 24, 2013 Posted June 24, 2013 (edited) I have made a few testing with the SAMs, so, actually: 1. In DCS there is a safe spot over the SAMs (confirmed for SA-3, SA-6, SA-8, SA-10, SA-11 and SA-15). To get there, either fly under their coverage, or above (see 2.). Of course, for most it is not recommanded except for testing purpose. 2. You can try overflying the following: SA-3, SA-6, SA-8, SA-15, SA-19 (by flying above approx. 17 000 m, 11 000 m, 7 000 m, 8 000 m, 5 000 m). I can however confirm the SA-11 (Buk) will shoot you even at 19 000 m (62 000 ft), so no chance there. All tests made with a Su-33 against UKR SAMs (skill "excellent"). I have not yet tested the non-CIS SAM systems. Edited June 24, 2013 by Robin_Hood 2nd French Fighter Squadron
MaverickF22 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 You are taking into account for the elevation of where the unit is sitting of course right? Of course i took that into account, i'm sorry i didn't write down, it was AGL, not MSL! Cheers, Good day. Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on! Making DCS a better place for realism. Let it be, ED!
MaverickF22 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 2. You can try overflying the following: SA-3, SA-6, SA-8, SA-15, SA-19 (by flying above approx. 17 000 m, 11 000 m, 7 000 m, 8 000 m, 5 000 m). I can however confirm the SA-11 (Buk) will shoot you even at 19 000 m (62 000 ft), so no chance there. All tests made with a Su-33 against UKR SAMs (skill "excellent"). I have not yet tested the non-CIS SAM systems. Good work for testing this Robin..., so to avoid a TOR, you'll need at least 24500AGL feet, but that also depends on your speed, you've done it with Su-33, thus with an A-10C (tested by myself), you'll need at least 26000AGL feet, but anyway..., these heights are way higher in our sim, than they are in reality, so something must be changed, eighter by increasing the total air drag coef of the missiles or reducing their thrust (of course, if this is possible without reducing it's top speed achieved when launched vertically, compared to real life, cause that won't help) or by mixing the total drag coefficient and thrust levels/times until the missile achieves a realistic top speed and maximum range/altitude, as that's what we want..., so these would be my quick personal suggestion, although maybe not giving the maximum accuracy, i didn't yet take all the other variables into account! Have a good day, Cheers. Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on! Making DCS a better place for realism. Let it be, ED!
MaverickF22 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 I bet if ED made AFM for SAM's, then maximum vertical range will decrease. You've got that right... Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on! Making DCS a better place for realism. Let it be, ED!
MaverickF22 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 Regarding Tunguska's capability to lock and track very low flying aircrafts in real life, seems to take place at a higher altitude above the ground, than for a TOR (for which is 10m AGL) as an example, as it says: "The mechanically scanned target acquisition radar for the Tunguska-M1 offers a 360-degree field of view, a detection range of around 18 km and can detect targets flying as low as 15 m", but in DCS we can find that tunguska is able to keep track on a target that is as low as the ground itself, way lower than 15..14 meters..., so it's like tunguska is guiding it's missile with a laser beam or through an optical sensor, because the radar can't keep a track like that. Have a good day! Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on! Making DCS a better place for realism. Let it be, ED!
lobo Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 On page 32 of my A-10c checklist I've included a threat chart. Max engagement range/alt tested using player controlled A-10C. (exceptions were the SA-3, SA-10, SA-11 as these weapons reach well beyond the ceiling of the A-10C) Available for download here: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/172905/ Lobo's DCS A-10C Normal Checklist & Quick Reference Handbook current version 8D available here: http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/172905/
GGTharos Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 It is. so it's like tunguska is guiding it's missile with a laser beam or through an optical sensor [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
MaverickF22 Posted June 25, 2013 Posted June 25, 2013 It is. So should i understand that only the Tunguska has this ability, as it is the only SAM system to do that in our sim? Thanks.;) Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on! Making DCS a better place for realism. Let it be, ED!
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