P51 dogfight video

OutOnTheOP · July 13, 2013

Not to get OT, but is it really up for debate? While individual pilots were not necessarily "bad," and it's certainly fun to simulate combat between both sides in computer games, there is absolutely no room for debate about who were the good and bad guys in World War 2. The military and political objectives of the Axis forces would be rejected by the vast majority of people and nations today. Where is the debate?

No need to engage in a lengthy discussion about historical matters which are beyond the scope of this thread. Nor should we inject modern political biases that are irrelevant to the period. We don't need to expend 3000 words to realize we're discussing semantics. I almost hesitate to write this response. Nevertheless, it's quite simple: WW2 Allies = good; WW2 Axis = bad. Period.

...you know, I strongly suspect all that misses the point: I'm pretty sure the complaint he had about the "the good guy is here, the bad guy is there" narration wasn't about the simplicity of determining which side is the good guys, it was about the paucity of narrative in the show regarding what actually goes on in a dogfight

Instead of saying "Pilot A is here: he's nose high, low on airspeed, in an aircraft with an inferior roll rate to Pilot B. The position is vulnerable, because he doesn't have the energy to out-dive or out-climb the opponent, and the roll disadvantage means he can't count on a rolling scissors...", etcetera, they just say "bad guy behind good guy. Good guy in trouble. Oogh, grunt"

element1108 · July 13, 2013

...you know, I strongly suspect all that misses the point: I'm pretty sure the complaint he had about the "the good guy is here, the bad guy is there" narration wasn't about the simplicity of determining which side is the good guys, it was about the paucity of narrative in the show regarding what actually goes on in a dogfight

Instead of saying "Pilot A is here: he's nose high, low on airspeed, in an aircraft with an inferior roll rate to Pilot B. The position is vulnerable, because he doesn't have the energy to out-dive or out-climb the opponent, and the roll disadvantage means he can't count on a rolling scissors...", etcetera, they just say "bad guy behind good guy. Good guy in trouble. Oogh, grunt"

What he said...I hate writing on mobile phones in here ...especially long essays...can't seem to properly articulate myself clearly because typing with my thumbs is annoying as hell hehe.

Just wanted to give some insight as to the possible reasons why certain things of TV/film production are missing.

Interesting discussion though +1's for all.

otto · July 13, 2013

@Echo225

I find childish the good guy ,bad guy stuf. While the Nazi leaders were pure evil and i would like them burned to the stake.And had idiotic world domination plans.

The american, british forces that fire bombed Dresden for example(at least tens of thousands burned alive ,mostly women and children because the men were on the front) are bad guys ?

No i see them as grey because i for example would not follow such an order. but the amecican and british leaders that orderd it are just as evil as nazi ones.

Also i don't blame the bomber crues that bombed hiroshima & nagasaki but i blame Harry S. Truman.

And a pilot that protects bombers that burn cityes is a good guy ?

What about axis pilot that shoots down bombers , that bomb cityes ?

I don't know what to say.It's very complicated.It's a moral ambiguity.

I'm glad the US, british forces won WW2 but how can you say this crap: "WW2 Allies = good; WW2 Axis = bad. "

Imho if and only if 0 german and japanese civilian casulatyes existed could you call WW2 Allies = good;

My strong answer is because i strongly hate wars off all kind .

Even when i play online i don't want to kill the other virtual pilot, just destroy his plane.

Edited July 13, 2013 by otto

element1108 · July 13, 2013

I do agree narration that used good guy and bad guy is a bit lazy in this context. I could see the note to address that:

Network: we want the audience to feel like our subject is heroic....how about using the term good guy/bad guy when describing American and German pilots!

WildBillKelsoe · July 15, 2013

I hate candelaria.... that maneuver is simply not possible in the mustang... I cannot replicate...

Yob · July 15, 2013

I hate candelaria.... that maneuver is simply not possible in the mustang... I cannot replicate...

Just because we can't do some thing it does not mean he cannot, but that said he may never have told the full truth, or the mustang we fly is not 100% real because we don't have the real I AM GOING TO DIE IF I DON"T DO THIS FACTOR. and a desktop can not fully represent a aircraft. although that being said dcs mustang is the best for the desktop i have.

Echo38 · July 15, 2013

I hate candelaria.... that maneuver is simply not possible in the mustang... I cannot replicate...

Ignore the foolish animation and listen to what the man said. The maneuver he described (something like a loop-turned-hammerhead, but with positive elevator instead of rudder) is quite possible in a WWII fighter. The silly maneuver that is shown (a vectored-thrust somersault ... supermaneuverability like Pugachev's Cobra) on screen is not. They're rather different things altogether. I would bet good money that Candelaria never saw the animation until after the show aired; if he had, he surely would have corrected them.

or the mustang we fly is not 100% real because we don't have the real I AM GOING TO DIE IF I DON"T DO THIS FACTOR.

Neither the will to perform a maneuver, the need to do so in order to survive, nor adrenaline can alter the physics of what an aircraft is capable of. Nor, beyond how much force one can exert on the controls, can it improve a pilot's flying abilities in the short term. (Long term, it can convince him to train harder, but we're talking mid-battle.)

Edited July 15, 2013 by Echo38

NineLine · July 15, 2013

Adrenaline can alter the pilots perception of what really happened though :)

Neither the will to perform a maneuver, the need to do so in order to survive, nor adrenaline can alter the physics of what an aircraft is capable of. Nor, beyond how much force one can exert on the controls, can it improve a pilot's flying abilities in the short term. (Long term, it can convince him to train harder, but we're talking mid-battle.)

Echo38 · July 15, 2013

Ha, yes! "We were bounced by about a hundred Me 109s" ends up really being fifteen or twenty of them.

gavagai · July 15, 2013

Ha, yes! "We were bounced by about a hundred Me 109s" ends up really being fifteen or twenty of them.

Yes! I had that thought when I read Yeager's book many years ago. If I only had him for a source I would have thought the Luftwaffe was at full strength right up to the end of the war.

Merlin-27 · July 15, 2013

Yes! I had that thought when I read Yeager's book many years ago. If I only had him for a source I would have thought the Luftwaffe was at full strength right up to the end of the war.

I'm still wondering about all the combat reports of pilots flying over 500mph. Don't try that in ours... you will become a lawn dart.

ishtmail · July 15, 2013

Thanks for the link. I've watched more than a few episodes of Dogfights; it's cool hearing from some of the pilots in person (so to speak). Unfortunately, the show's animator doesn't know much about flying, and they don't use a physics program at any point, so the animated aircraft don't at all move the way real aircraft do. Still, most of the time, the show does the job, mostly.

They should have used DCS: P51, that would fix their realism problems ;)

Although, the animations wouldn't be as attractive as the ones their animator did, what with the impossible maneuvers the guy animated that wouldn't be possible in DCS, but do look pretty cool to the average joe.

Echo38 · July 15, 2013

I'm still wondering about all the combat reports of pilots flying over 500mph.

There was a problem with faulty ASI readings due to pitot tube error. At one point, it was erroneously announced in the news that a P-40 had exceeded the speed of sound. In actuality, it was going maybe 450 MPH (don't remember if they figured out quite how fast), but at transonic speeds, air compresses inside the pitot tube, causing the ASI to display highly inaccurate readings. Or something like that, anyway. Took 'em a while to figure out that they weren't always going as fast as the ASI said, and develop charts to try to calibrate the error.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Echo38

Yob · July 15, 2013

Yes! I had that thought when I read Yeager's book many years ago. If I only had him for a source I would have thought the Luftwaffe was at full strength right up to the end of the war.

:lol: But i am sure the maneuver is not like that in dogfights but there is one that works.

WildBillKelsoe · July 16, 2013

even George Lucas took the stupid impossible maneuver in his trash film.

"Gonna show'im a lickle trick I learned".... What a crock of shit!!!

Yob · July 16, 2013

even George Lucas took the stupid impossible maneuver in his trash film.

"Gonna show'im a lickle trick I learned".... What a crock of shit!!!

Yep amen to that, although i can replicate in A2A simulations mustang before 1.5 patch, but not any more.

Echo38 · July 16, 2013

Yep amen to that, although i can replicate in A2A simulations mustang before 1.5 patch, but not any more.

MSFS has always had horrid flight physics. FAA recommended MSFS for procedural and instrument practice; it wasn't for aerobatics or anything else requiring a decent flight model. (I suspect that Microsoft's colossal influence and domination also had something to do with the recommendation; MSFS surely would not have gotten the FAA thumb-up if it had been made & published by a small developer.) Edited July 16, 2013 by Echo38

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