Dogfight tactics

[Pyroflash]

@Echo38

 

I stated: Keep the fights short, only atack when having an advantage, do not slow dogfight a angles fighter.Do not spent to much of your energy.

He only says i'm wrong.Is he wright ?

Was the p51 build to energy fight or to dogfight ? If they wanted dogfighter why not build a spitfire.

 

In the old Il2 i cut the path of a turning 109 or once, twice , i get a few shots on the engine or cockpit (engine brakes down or pilot dies). I never turn with the 109 , loosing energy.Even when "saving " a friendly i fire shots until the 109 brakes of but i do not folow him in the turn.I make a yo-yo and if i can't get the 109 after that i dive to refill my energy.I think it's also a good tactic for DCS P51 vs DCS p51 .Is this wrong ?

 

This is how the tread begins : Taking part in MP dogfights.....

The guy asks for info on MP tactics.And GGTharos argues only that i am wrong.

 

Yes. He is right. An energy fighter only means that your tactics in a dogfight rely upon conservation of a superior total energy state. Your aircraft is not capable of sustaining a higher turn rate or a lower turn radius, so your tactics represent a "smarter", more conservative way of flying. It is entirely possible to dogfight angles fighters with energy fighters. You just have to know what you are doing. My guess is that you are trying to park yourself on his six for a tracking shot. This is not going to work. The P-51D does not have a viable control zone in respect to the 109. Keep your corner speed, turn in the oblique, keep your potential energy high, and wait for him to mess up. Then, when he gets too slow, come around and rip his wing off with a snapshot.

 

BTW, I suggest doing these fights until you can reliably kill the bandit within 720 degrees of turn. Traditionally, your SA decreases as the fight progresses, and it is not advisable to prolong a fight for more than 2 minutes or so. History says that anything beyond that, and you are basically tumbleweed as far as the rest of the world is concerned. Get in, get out quick, sanitize, and re-form. Then leave the area. Fighting attracts the wrong kind of attention, and chances are that you don't want to start ANOTHER fight at your current energy state.

 

BTW, I can assure you that GG's knowledge of air combat tactics is real, and not in any way purely theoretical. You're more than willing to test that though. I'm sure his Eagle is hungry by now. :D

Edited October 22, 2013 by Pyroflash

[Tumbleweed]

Ok that is a little more like cheating, but really if you are just starting out or having trouble there is nothing wrong with giving yourself a little advantage, and then slowly take away those advantages as you get better...

 

 

All I know is, since decreasing the fuel load in the mustang, I can actually pitch the aircraft up more than 20 degrees at over 200mph now without it shaking like mad before tipping sideways :D

 

Even a gradual, gentle increase in pitch to do a loop for example would make the thing buck around yet the Dora seems to fly perfect even when you riddle it with rounds... erm...

 

Probably just my perception of it as a rookie?

 

I've even decreased the sensitivity of my pitch axis so I can't pull back too hard and cause the airframe to shake but then I found I could barely pitch up at all :/ Decreasing the fuel temporarily was the only thing that seemed to help.

[Echo38]

BTW, I can assure you that GG's knowledge of air combat tactics is real, and not in any way purely theoretical. You're more than willing to test that though. I'm sure his Eagle is hungry by now.

 

Heh--I'm betting GGTharos would knock him out of the sky in under a minute. I'd like to watch!

[NineLine]

All I know is, since decreasing the fuel load in the mustang, I can actually pitch the aircraft up more than 20 degrees at over 200mph now without it shaking like mad before tipping sideways :D

 

Even a gradual, gentle increase in pitch to do a loop for example would make the thing buck around yet the Dora seems to fly perfect even when you riddle it with rounds... erm...

 

Probably just my perception of it as a rookie?

 

I've even decreased the sensitivity of my pitch axis so I can't pull back too hard and cause the airframe to shake but then I found I could barely pitch up at all :/ Decreasing the fuel temporarily was the only thing that seemed to help.

 

 

Couple things about the Dora, of course its still a WIP so the damage model probably isnt where it needs to be, it i flown by a computer, although tactically maybe not as smart as a real pilot, its goal is to stay aloft, so it might be able to handle a damaged aircraft better than us. Also the Dora AI doesnt have to overcome things that hold us back, so AI has advantages in a few ways...

 

I havent really looked at the instant action, but I would think rarely the P-51 engaged on a full tank of fuel in real life as there as probably always some travel time to the engagement zone so less fuel makes more sense.

 

As for your controls, adjusting the axis is a good idea, lets remember how long the flight stick in an actual P-51 is compared to ours on our desk, now remember the P-51 is simulation of the real thing, meaning you are flying the real thing with a real short stick... in this case... size does matter ;)

[NineLine]

@GGTharos

 

So so :) .. to do a downward spiral in a P51 with a 109 on 6 is wrong. what would you do ?

 

I did not know the speed of the bullets so i was wrong about that.

You have theoretical skills, not practical.It is clear from what you write you have not spend time in WW2 online sims.In an energy fighter vs an angles fighter you dogfight for too long you will end up dead .Most of the time a third plane kills you when you get too slow. But if you keep your speed up and deflection kill your enemyes then it's a different story.Most of the time i get lots of hits even from weird angles if they get slow.Very important is knowing if and when to enter or leave a fight.

 

When i dogfight the dora i get realy slow.In an online many vs many match i would never do that.A lesson learned the hard way.

Btw the FW 190 Dora has a bad damage model in my opinion.A few shots to the engine should damage it at least.

 

Dora is still a WIP, damage model should be considered as such.

 

As for getting really slow against the Dora, arent you putting yourself at a disadvantage doing this? That doesnt seem to be a tactic that would benefit the P-51D.

[Echo38]

I havent really looked at the instant action, but I would think rarely the P-51 engaged on a full tank of fuel in real life as there as probably always some travel time to the engagement zone so less fuel makes more sense.

 

That was my first thought also, but remember drop tanks!

[NineLine]

That was my first thought also, but remember drop tanks!

 

Good point, if they were running on drop tanks and got into a fight, I would assume that when they dropped the tanks, their main tanks would be full... so you are right... it might be realistic to enter an engagement with full tanks...

[GGTharos]

I think this is a matter of planning. P-51 pilots would know about their fuel situation and they might well plan to be able to engage after they have burned off a certain amount.

 

Of course, plans end up meeting the enemy, and the enemy doesn't always cooperate, but I think it's really all part of planning.

 

That was my first thought also, but remember drop tanks!

[Merlin-27]

I have read several accounts where RL Mustang pilots would do a variety of things to manage their fuel situation. Some would burn a decent amount from the fuselage tank before using up the drop tanks. This was to minimize the impact of engaging the enemy with a full fuse tank which makes things very difficult.

[Bucic]

RRG forum section - Dogfight maneuvers and gunnery guides? Edited October 22, 2013 by Bucic

[Lulac]

when I start this thread I meant of using P-51 in our, virtual world, in MP...think that RL is something way different! In MP, all you can see, now, is low level flying, chasing and fighting like flies without heads, usually up to 10 people maximum, friday at DSC Israel 20 people maximum!!! Take for instance IL-2 Cliffs of Dover, with new patch, every night ATAG server full with 100 (yes hundred pilots-all slots occupied, hope one day we will see this in DCS too :)!!!).

at this moment, think there is no better place for testing all your theoretical knowledge shown here (all you wise guy...:music_whistling:) about flying and combat with piston aviation in MP...

 

...at the end, like the Iron Maiden song said:be quick or be dead!

[Der_Fred]

Well maybe Oleg and Ilya will increase DCS's popularity with their new 'style' and venture.

:)

[Echo38]

I think this is a matter of planning. P-51 pilots would know about their fuel situation and they might well plan to be able to engage after they have burned off a certain amount.

Of course, plans end up meeting the enemy, and the enemy doesn't always cooperate, but I think it's really all part of planning.

 

Mm, yes. And the Luftwaffe was having some awful range problems by the time the P-51D came along, too. I recall the Me 109E could barely reach England on a full tank, and that was before Germany lost the forward bases in France and started to run into supply shortages. Later 109s and the FW 190 didn't have much more range than the Emil, right? All things taken into consideration, I think it would have been uncommon for P-51s to see combat on a full tank of fuel--but perhaps not unheard of.

 

all your theoretical knowledge shown here (all you wise guy...) about flying and combat with piston aviation in MP...

 

It isn't only theoretical; some of us DCS simmers have been doing multiplayer flightsims since the 1990s or earlier, and many of us know quite a bit about real-life ACM as well. One shouldn't assume that reading a few hours of whatever and playing IL-2 lets one know all about real Second World War air combat. The subject is vast and varied, and you can spend thousands of hours researching it without having really done it justice.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Echo38

[Lulac]

@Echo 38

 

exactly, and my knowledge of this theme is a little beat more then the ordinary simmer...for 17 f***ing years spent in the @#$%$ army and I learn a little beat of RL!!!

 

...duty bogeymen!!!

 

:furious:

[NineLine]

Ok, everyone relax a little, let you chests deflate a bit :)

 

How bout something closer to the thread title, DCS WOrld dogfight tactics, specific to P-51 right now... how do you set up your controls to give you an edge in a fight... what is the most important settings you have right at your finger tips... etc...

 

@Echo 38

 

exactly, and my knowledge of this theme is a little beat more then the ordinary simmer...for 17 f***ing years spent in the @#$%$ army and I learn a little beat of RL!!!

 

...duty bogeymen!!!

 

:furious:

[DieHard]

Couple things about the Dora, of course its still a WIP so the damage model probably isnt where it needs to be, it i flown by a computer, although tactically maybe not as smart as a real pilot, its goal is to stay aloft, so it might be able to handle a damaged aircraft better than us. Also the Dora AI doesnt have to overcome things that hold us back, so AI has advantages in a few ways...

 

I havent really looked at the instant action, but I would think rarely the P-51 engaged on a full tank of fuel in real life as there as probably always some travel time to the engagement zone so less fuel makes more sense.

 

As for your controls, adjusting the axis is a good idea, lets remember how long the flight stick in an actual P-51 is compared to ours on our desk, now remember the P-51 is simulation of the real thing, meaning you are flying the real thing with a real short stick... in this case... size does matter ;)

 

A better comparison is fighting the same aircraft in SP with experiments I have done using the Mission Editor. The P-51D AI in Instant Action with a full tank of gas is still a handful opponent with me as a P-51D pilot just carrying 25% fuel. So, ditto using the FW-190 or the Bf-109 as AI. The AI P-51D is still formidable if I drop its average speed 100 mph. LOL!

 

When we get the DCS flyable FW-190 I bet it, too, is a handful.

Edited October 22, 2013 by DieHard

[DieHard]

Ok, everyone relax a little, let you chests deflate a bit :)

 

How bout something closer to the thread title, DCS WOrld dogfight tactics, specific to P-51 right now... how do you set up your controls to give you an edge in a fight... what is the most important settings you have right at your finger tips... etc...

 

I fine tune the Axis Tune so I can trim it better and map the stuff I use to my HOTAS controllers and play SP a lot so my muscle memory is eventually learned without even thinking about what I am doing---WIP... I did map the cowl flaps coolers to open and close easily.

Edited October 22, 2013 by DieHard