Brasil`s govenment will buy the Saab Gripen

[jomar machado]

They say that Brasil will buy these 36 planes and some more (120 in the total) will be built by the brasilian industry in the future...

[jacobs]

Considering our country's past when it comes to international arms deals, anyone want to take bets on how long it takes before heads are rolling within the Brazilian air force and government for accepting bribes from SAAB?

 

Bribes and lobbists are not exclusivity of Brasil arms deal...

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Brazil wants technology transfer. That's probably the main reason for the purchase of Gripen. Russia is offering T-50 to Brazil with the option of technology transfer.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Yesterday at night I was talking with my father who was in the meeting with the president before the announcement.

:lookaround: :lookaround: we have some top level access to clasified info on this site? Or, your dad talk to a president of the local football club in the local pub, with few pints of beer, about the Gripen purchase ...

[maturin]

As Griffin said "I'm sure they won't be disappointed with the quality", I hope so.

 

We live in a country that lives in Peace with it's neighbours and we don't see a war for almost 200 years...

 

The war we have are almost exclusively against internationals traffickers.

That's what I kept thinking about during this thread.

 

Let Brazil make a politically-motivated purchase. Not like they have anyone to fight anyhow, and any puny neighbor that picks a fight will quickly regret it.

[jomar machado]

The people of DCS World could be political and make a Saab Gripen "module" for all of us ;) !

[Bruce_D]

:lookaround: :lookaround: we have some top level access to clasified info on this site? Or, your dad talk to a president of the local football club in the local pub, with few pints of beer, about the Gripen purchase ...

 

The 1st option...

 

:)

[theOden]

The people of DCS World could be political and make a Saab Gripen "module" for all of us ;) !

Isn't there a small secret 39 addon somewhere never to be released?

Some Hungarian team/modder IIRC.

Would love to see that in DCS.

[tflash]

Finally a fighter deal that actually materialises! Good for Gripen, it's a nice aircraft!

[jomar machado]

I saw the FSX with a Gripen flying, but it looked a little dated in the graphics...

[Scrim]

Bribes and lobbists are not exclusivity of Brasil arms deal...

 

I'm talking about how Swedish military technology is exported, not how Brazil imports. Of the high profile Swedish military arms export deals, I have a hard time thinking of even one that so far hasn't been revealed to have included bribes and/or proper felonies.

[GripenNG]

I'm talking about how Swedish military technology is exported, not how Brazil imports. Of the high profile Swedish military arms export deals, I have a hard time thinking of even one that so far hasn't been revealed to have included bribes and/or proper felonies.

 

Most of the Swedish arms producers are in-fact owned by over-seas Companys such as BAE-systems and ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems. Which in turn makes you think how the deals are made behind closed doors on other defence related exports world wide.

 

I´d hardly belive SAAB and other Swedish companys are the only ones with this shady activities.

[Vann7]

The people of DCS World could be political and make a Saab Gripen "module" for all of us ;) !

 

 

IMHO the decision for going with the Saab is either Political.. Someone was bribed in the army to brainwash the Brazilian Government. Thats the only possible explanation for picking the Gripen over a Rafale or even better a modern SUkhoi. or Total ignorance.

 

I believe is the first one.. Political Corruption..

 

Russia was offering **technology transfer** of their 4thGen +++ the Su-35.. That they designed to fill the gap between

Until Pak-FA . So the plane have many Technology that is only available in their next generation Stealth plane.

 

If you compare the RAdars , Weapons and Jamming capabilities and Meneuverability of the plane

hands down wins the Su-35..

 

Lets see ..

 

Speed..

SU-35 - Gripen

 

mach 2.25 - mach 2.0

 

Fiery Range

4,500 km - 3,200 km

 

Service Ceiling

18,000 m (59,100 ft)-15,240 m (50,000 ft)

 

Engines power with AFT

Thrust vectoring engine with 2x 142 kN power - linear Thrust engine 1 x 80.5 kN

 

Radars

AESA +Lband + IR optics - vs Aesa radar,,

400km - 120 km

 

Weapons

The Gripen use the same US weapons good luck to get a refill in case of war.

up to 370km range ~ Hypersonic speed missiles with have active AND infra-Red

Vs.. 250km range weapons with active OR infra-Red.

 

Price..

about the same. up to $US 65 millions each.

 

So basically Brazil have chosen a plane that is significantly inferior in performance

inferior Range ,inferior weapons , Significantly inferior maneuverability , Inferior weapons in Beyond Visual range. and inferior in jamming capabilities .

 

lets see what Pentagon Contractor

Says about Modern SUkhois vs NATO combat jets in a conducted simulation on the pacific.

between both planes.. Notice here.. what the Pentagon intelligence contractor discovered in particular

about the F-18 superhornet.. the plane that brazil really wanted..

 

 

 

You can see here a full review of the SU-35 compared vs NATO next negeration combat plane..

not the Gripen but the F-35..

 

By aviation Australian and pilot exper.. DR Carlo Kopp

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-05072010-1.html

 

Don't know how can Brazilians feel happy of being Robbed in Business.

The Gripen is a light plane that can only be compared with an F-16. The Gripen will NOT be able to compete

with the F-35 or even less the F-22 while the SU-35 can.

 

The Su-35 was designed to be competitive with the F-22 and F-35.. Because already the Former

Sukhois like SU-27 outclass 4th planes of US.. like F-16/F15/F18 And this can be confirmed by several sources

including American and Australians Aviation experts. BUt also Pilots at Red Flag Pilots in 2008 when India SUkhoi defeated all

4th Gen planes with their SU-30mki. SU-35 use a new passive L band passive radars and Infra RED optical sensors that can significantly help detect Stealth planes and powerful Electronic Counter measures to blind missiles . Brazilians always like to buy European technology ,based on appearance.. Perhaps in the believe that if they are good developing cars ,then they are good designing airplanes. But thats not the case.

Russia design everything on its Combat jets ,and have far more experience than Any European Nations designing combat planes. the Europeans jets are just pretty Airframes with lots of Americans technology inside specially engine and weapons.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Vann7

[EtherealN]

Vann, you're missing something important: you are comparing with the C/D Gripen, which is actually not what Brazil is purchasing. They will be getting the Gripen NG (E/F), and as a development partner they get to be in on deciding exactly which specs it is going to get.

 

The highlights are, however, longer range ("excess of 4000km ferry range"), stronger engine (20% up compared to the previous), supercruise in excess of M1.2 with A2A payload, AESA radar co-developed with Brazil. And just like the previous C/D version it is actually NOT locked to US missiles. Gripen already integrated IRIS-T and MICA and will operate the Meteor. It is also considerably cheaper to operate than the 35S, 18E/F or Rafale.

 

Before you make allegations of corruption and/or ignorance, make sure you have checked your own facts first. Taking performance numbers for the Gripen C/D from Wikipedia and applying them in a comparison for Gripen NG is just not quite right. ;)

 

Carlo Kopp is a whole different subject though. Check around a bit and you'll find a lot of debate about him and his website. Let's just say he isn't exactly considered an authority. :P

Edited January 13, 2014 by EtherealN

[Vann7]

The people of DCS World could be political and make a Saab Gripen "module" for all of us ;) !

 

 

IMHO the decision for going with the Saab is entirely is either 1)Political.. Someone was bribed in the army to brainwash the Brazilian Government. Thats the only possible explanation for picking the Gripen over a Rafale or even better a modern SUkhoi. or 2)Total ignorance.

 

I believe is the first one.. Corruption..

 

Russia was offering technology transfer of the best non stealth combat jet in the world.

the Su-35.. Its not a remake of previous planes but actually have many technology from next generation Pak-FA..

 

If you compare the RAdars , Weapons and Jamming capabilities and Meneuverability of the plane

hands down wins the Su-35..

 

Lets see ..

 

Speed..

SU-35 - Gripen

 

mach 2.25 - mach 2.0

 

Fiery Range

4,500 km - 3,200 km

 

Service Ceiling

18,000 m (59,100 ft)-15,240 m (50,000 ft)

 

Engines power with AFT

Thrust vectoring engine with 2x 142 kN power - linear Thrust engine 1 x 80.5 kN

 

Radars

AESA +Lband + IR optics - vs Aesa radar,,

400km - 120 km

 

Weapons

The Gripen use the same US weapons good luck to get a refill in case of war.

up to 370km range ~ Hypersonic speed missiles with have active AND infra-Red

Vs.. 250km range weapons with active OR infra-Red.

 

Price..

about the same. up to $US 65 millions each.

 

So basically Brazil have chosen a plane that is significantly inferior in performance

inferior Range ,inferior weapons , Significantly inferior maneuverability , Inferior weapons in Beyond Visual range. and inferior in jamming capabilities .

 

You can see here a full review of the SU-35 compared vs NATO next negeration combat plane..

not the Gripen but the F-35..

 

By aviation Australian and pilot exper.. DR Carlo Kopp

 

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-05072010-1.html

 

Now if you need the opinions of 2 experts.. lets see what Pentagon Contractor

Says about Modern SUkhois vs NATO combat jets in a conducted simulation on the pacific.

between both planes.. Notice here.. what the Pentagon says about the F-18 superhornet.. the

plane that brazil really wanted..

 

 

The Su-35 was designed to compete with the F-22 and F-35.. to give them a good fight..

and very strong Technology not only to combat with radars turned off but also Jam missiles.

Simply Brazilians made the mistake of their life .. Su-35 is significantly Superior that any gripen and Russia offered a full transfer of technology.. Only real reason to pick the Gripen was corruption or total ignorance ..because there is no other explanation.

[Kaktus29]

picking Grippen and western missiles will mean one thing, no ability to use it in war unless green light comes from Washington.. Grippen comes from a nation that is western bound and tied over and under.. to believe for a second this nation will go against US pressure and force and still deliver maintenence parts and missile parts to Brazil in case Brazil angers US is wishful thinking..

 

How and why has Brazil chosen so badly only they know.. but its a stupid decision from strategic, tactical and just common sense point of view..

 

the chance of angering US is just sooo much bigger than angering Russia ..so this grippen will be mostly a tool used by Washington to exert influence in Brazil political decisions.. and Brazil did it all themselves.. why bother and pick grippen, just go for F-18 then if that's the stupid you want to drink.. why go to the middleman when you can go to the source..

[EtherealN]

picking Grippen and western missiles will mean one thing, no ability to use it in war unless green light comes from Washington.. Grippen comes from a nation that is western bound and tied over and under.. to believe for a second this nation will go against US pressure and force and still deliver maintenence parts and missile parts to Brazil in case Brazil angers US is wishful thinking..

 

You are aware of the fact that Brazil has one of the world's largest aircraft industries and will be building most of these planes themselves, right? And that the NG (even when it comes to swedish service) is planned to use european, not american, missiles? ;) But even better... Brazil makes it's own missiles. Most likely their Gripens will use Piranha and Darter for short-range (since they make them themselves), and for long-range they have both US and European options, and could probably also make them use the Israeli missiles they already keep in stock.

 

Similarly, the radar system will actually be part-Brazilian as well (part swedish, part brazil, not american).

 

Your argument would apply well to the A/B version of Gripen, and less so on C/D (since weaponry options then move away from being US-centric and instead focuses on european), not at all on an E/F where Brazil themselves will be fully tooled up to build the whole thing themselves.

Edited January 13, 2014 by EtherealN

[Pilotasso]

The Russian planes are tied to complicated and slow logistics for parts and maintenance, and would be terribly expensive to maintain. What's more is that T-50 final specs are completely in the air and would be the most technically risky option and probably also the most expensive.

Russia offered a class of fighters that typically Brazil considers the least.

 

In that regard I think the rejection of the russian options was logic.

 

The F-18 Superhornet was regarded as the most advanced option, once the favoured option by the military now discarded due to political scandals.

 

The contest was really between the Gripen and Rafale. What has hurt the Rafale the most to me clearly was the former president Lula having announced as the winner prematurely and that was highly contested by everyone and clearly the opinion was not shared by current president Dilma. Only one option left - Gripen.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Pilotasso

[EtherealN]

Rafale was also, apparently, even more expensive than both Gripen and F/A-18E/F to operate. (Though I'm unsure of the price source's provenance, was one of the articles I read around when the decision was made public, but I don't remember which one so I can't check it. What I remember off of the top of my head was $4000/hour on Gripen, $14000/hour on SuperHornet and $18000/hour on the Rafale, but that might be wrong - as I said, off of my memory.)

 

The operating cost difference being radical (if the numbers were correct) between the Gripen and the Hornet/Rafale, and while it does of course pay for this in slightly lower performance in some areas, ease of maintenance and low costs in operation are no small thing; lower operating costs if nothing else gives the politician a chance to say that they were being financially prudent - or offer the option of getting more planes than would otherwise be acquired (apparently the Brazilian air force is trying to push this up to 100+ Gripens in the future, though those are the kind of unconfirmed stuff journalists can only source to "sources familiar with the matter" etc).

 

It would also be interesting to know exactly what changed in the deal offered by SAAB. Gripen was originally ruled out, but SAAB made a new offer a while back to "get back in the race". And what we're seeing now is large parts of the production in Brazil, Brazilian co-development of the Radar systems, and SAAB making a big deal of how Brazil will be a key player in developing the NG. (Or perhaps it was just changes in offsets that made the difference, who knows.)

 

Another synergy, btw: Brazil and South Africa are developing an A2A missile together, and South Africa of course already operates the (C/D) Gripen.

[aaron886]

I feel like any line of reasoning that justifies the Gripen over the Super Hornet is just backward reasoning... but who cares.

[Pilotasso]

Another synergy, btw: Brazil and South Africa are developing an A2A missile together, and South Africa of course already operates the (C/D) Gripen.

 

 

 

what missile is that? never heard of it? :huh:

[EtherealN]

what missile is that? never heard of it? :huh:

 

A-Darter, being developed by Denel (South Africa) and Mectron (Brazil).

[EtherealN]

I feel like any line of reasoning that justifies the Gripen over the Super Hornet is just backward reasoning... but who cares.

 

How so?

 

Don't make the mistake of judging combat aircraft solely on a 1v1 or 4v4 combat matchup. There's a lot more that goes into it - not the least of which is how much it costs to keep the planes in the air. For example, in the case of the Gripen, it's a lot easier to deploy Gripens to for example remote amazon locations if you at some point want to since it requires less advanced maintenance - made to be serviced by only one trained personnel plus 4 conscripts - and doesn't need long runways. That could be a selling point depending on doctrine and terrain.

 

Further, "buddy-launching" A2A missiles has been successfully tested on the Gripen, allowing silent launch of AMRAAM (now) and Meteor (in the future) by a Gripen without use of radar - feeding off of datalinked info from either other Gripens or from AEWC/AWACS.

 

...and, interestingly, Brazil already operates Erieye-equipped aircraft for that role, made by Saab Microwave Systems and being the same system Sweden uses for that role (but Sweden uses a different host aircraft).

 

Basically, yes, if you have the money for it, the Super hornet is probably a better choice. But not everyone is swimming in the kind of cash the USAF has to spend, and there's a lot of things that can make something else a better choice.

[outlawal2]

I feel like any line of reasoning that justifies the Gripen over the Super Hornet is just backward reasoning... but who cares.

 

Well one point of view is that the actual NEED for these aircraft doesn't really justify the purchase of the absolute best.. While I agree that if you look at these planes one against the other the F-18 is a superior plane, but what exactly are the risks involved? As stated by an earlier poster, rival militaries have better planes but in very limited numbers and in several instances can hardly afford to even fly them..

 

Maybe it makes sense to obtain MANY more Saab planes that may not be technically as good as the other options but are by no means dogs either.. and if you can get many more of them for the same price it may make sense when you consider that they haven't been part of a major shooting war in 200 years..

 

With all of those factors considered, I may make a similar decision and say the Saab is good enough too..

 

(And this is an age old controversy.. Buy the very best and only afford a few of them, or buy a few steps down and flood the skies with them... Both options make sense depending on the scenario, it just depends on how much money you have and exactly what your needs are.)

[EtherealN]

Maybe it makes sense to obtain MANY more Saab planes that may not be technically as good as the other options but are by no means dogs either.. and if you can get many more of them for the same price it may make sense when you consider that they haven't been part of a major shooting war in 200 years..

 

Related point: I don't remember the details (as far as they were made public) of the Superhornet offer, but recall that the Gripen offer includes that most of the planes will actually be built in Brazil, by Brazilian companies, with partnership in development of the variant and tech transfer.

 

Basically, Brazil which already has a pretty big aviation industry is now getting an extra help into future capaiblities in developing fighter jets themselves rather than buying; IE, first step towards being a contender towards being a future superpower...