AI gunners are awesome! ... maybe too awesome?

[Flagrum]

The AI gunners together with 4 mini guns turn the Huey into a BEAST on the battlefield. Finally we got real means to deal with those pesty infantry troops ... :o) The Huey is way more effective for anything up to APCs than, i.e. the Blackshark ...

 

But my personal feeling ... hrm, maybe this is a bit too much? Yes, one could adjust the load out to reduce the effectiveness a bit, but what about this: implement skill levels for the AI gunners! Allow us to select the skill level for each AI under the new "Additional properties" tab in the mission editor and make them miss targets sometimes if they are just "Average" for example.

[TurboHog]

Problem is that Huey pilots in multiplayer will just set the skill level on expert and fly to anything that can be destroyed :(.

[Flagrum]

Problem is that Huey pilots in multiplayer will just set the skill level on expert and fly to anything that can be destroyed :(.

That would be not different to what we have now.

 

On the other hand, if that configuration option is only available from within the mission editor ... wouldn't that prevent this?

[fjacobsen]

Put in a few infantries with manpads or a single ZSU and the beast turns into a lamb.

[TurboHog]

That would be not different to what we have now.

 

On the other hand, if that configuration option is only available from within the mission editor ... wouldn't that prevent this?

 

True. As an enforceable option you mean?

[Flagrum]

True. As an enforceable option you mean?

Yes. On the properties tab that is now new for the Huey - where you can already configure the presence of the IR suppressor. Add 3 new options there, "Skill level" (like for the whole aircraft group) for "AI left gunner", "AI right gunner" and "Co-Pilot".

[Scrim]

You can't set a skill level for player or client aircraft. And as has been mentioned, against infantry and soft skin targets without any AA assets, pretty much anything that can A, fly, and B, bring weapons will be pretty effective.

 

Against BTRs and such though, Miniguns shouldn't work. Crying out loud, it's 7.62 against actual armour, that just won't penetrate.

[Flagrum]

You can't set a skill level for player or client aircraft.

Yeah, and that's why I suggest additional properties where you can configure it per AI crew position.

 

Against BTRs and such though, Miniguns shouldn't work. Crying out loud, it's 7.62 against actual armour, that just won't penetrate.

Somewhere there was someone mentioning how he sunk a ship with the miniguns. So, yeah, there might be some more things in need to be tweaked. :o)

[cichlidfan]

On the other side of the coin...

 

An AC-130 with gunners like that would be awesome. :D

[Fri13]

 

Against BTRs and such though, Miniguns shouldn't work. Crying out loud, it's 7.62 against actual armour, that just won't penetrate.

 

With that rate of fire the armor will quickly be weakened and penetrated. While the armor can withstand a single 7.62 caliber shot, with multiple to same spot and fast gives enough punch.

[Scrim]

I don't see just how armour that can withstand anything up to .50 cal rounds could actually be penetrated practically by 7.62 rounds. Especially not the way it is right now, with around 10 hits being enough. Considering that no one in their right mind would tell even a company of infantry to engage a single BTR even if they all had 7.62 weapons, I very much doubt that unless the helicopter was hovering right next to the BTR, miniguns just wouldn't cut it.

[Vampyre]

With that rate of fire the armor will quickly be weakened and penetrated. While the armor can withstand a single 7.62 caliber shot, with multiple to same spot and fast gives enough punch.

 

Similar to this BB gun:

 

Normally a BB wouldn't penetrate a TV... just leave a mark on the screen if anything.

[number3]

If I remember correctly armed bunkers and outposts have the same caliber of fire. In my mission BTRs can withstand that calibre of fire if taken from the front.

 

But they start to take damage when taken from the side and rear and will dire white quickly.

[Scrim]

Please don't tell me someone just said "this BB gun could destroy a TV = 7.62 can penetrate BTRs".

 

The BTR-60 could withstand 7.62 in the sides from beyond 100m, and the BTR-80, the one in DCS, is vastly uparmoured. Sorry, but no, not even an M134 would actually penetrate it.

[Vampyre]

Please don't tell me someone just said "this BB gun could destroy a TV = 7.62 can penetrate BTRs".

 

The BTR-60 could withstand 7.62 in the sides from beyond 100m, and the BTR-80, the one in DCS, is vastly uparmoured. Sorry, but no, not even an M134 would actually penetrate it.

 

Actually someone just said the concept was similar.

 

The more I think about it the more I think it might be possible to penetrate a BTR's hull with a minigun. Real world, 7.62x51 147 grain M-80 ball ammunition will leave a small divot in 1045 plate steel from closer ranges. I own several AR-10 rifles and I've done that myself with home made 1/2" and 1/4" plate steel targets. After about 500 rounds I usually have to replace the targets. That is just basic ball ammunition, not the specialized armor piercing or tracer rounds. Now if a minigun were to be in a position to direct concentrated fire on a specific small area of a BTR, it may be possible to punch through the thinner armor of the rear and sides... Of course it depends on what is underneath the area of armor you chose to punch through that determines if the vehicle will be destroyed or not. I doubt it will be possible from a moving helicopter without computer aided sights. This is all just theoretical on my part... I wish I had a minigun and about 10k rounds of ammunition to test this theory out.

Of course, if I were going to get that close with a minigun I'd just shoot a tire or two to get a fire going and cause the crew to abandon the vehicle. There is a higher probability of a kill that way.

 

As for the game, you are correct in that I doubt 10 rounds of 7.62 will do anything to a BTR.

[karambiatos]

heres the BTR manual or some parts of it

http://www.steelbeasts.com/Downloads/p13_sectionid/320/p13_fileid/1822

 

might tell you up to witch caliber it will withstand, the internet says 12.7 armor, some other places say 12.7 front and 7.62AP sides and rear.

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/btr-80-specs.htm

[number3]

Please don't tell me someone just said "this BB gun could destroy a TV = 7.62 can penetrate BTRs".

 

The BTR-60 could withstand 7.62 in the sides from beyond 100m, and the BTR-80, the one in DCS, is vastly uparmoured. Sorry, but no, not even an M134 would actually penetrate it.

 

Well I am telling you from trying myself min the mission editor, BTRs will get destroyed from armed bunker fire if hit from the sides or rear.

 

I am not saying whether it is realistic or not however.

 

If the BRT-80 is vastly up-armoured in DCS then you will be pleasantly surprised if you ever try it for yourself.

[OutOnTheOP]

Actually someone just said the concept was similar.

....7.62x51 147 grain M-80 ball ammunition will leave a small divot in 1045 plate steel from closer ranges. I own several AR-10 rifles and I've done that myself with home made 1/2" and 1/4" plate steel targets. After about 500 rounds I usually have to replace the targets. That is just basic ball ammunition, not the specialized armor piercing or tracer rounds.

 

"Home made" plate steel targets. What alloy? What type of heat hardening? I very much doubt it was an armor steel alloy, or properly hardened. Not all steel is created equal.

 

"500 rounds to destroy": ok, 500 rounds into how small an area? I'm guessing less than a square foot? So, in order to get that kind of round density, you'd have to hit the BTR with 12,500 rounds (assuming you're opening fire at a range to ensure hits on the hull, therefore a 5x5 foot dispersion).

 

I've been in a Stryker hit by 7.62x54R AP ammunition fired from a PKM at a range of approximately 350 meters. It did nothing more than chip the paint. It didn't leave a scratch (with the exception of breaking a vision block, from which we recovered a penetrator. The WIT guys said it was a tungsten-core round, but I don't know about all that; I thought Warsaw Pact AP was hardened steel penetrator).

 

The real problem is that in DCS, there is no damage model; only hitpoints. Unfortunately, this means that low-damage, high-rate-of-fire weapons that should bounce off armor instead wear it down. Until DCS implements a proper armor model- even a very basic one that does not take varying thickness or angle of incidence into account- this will be a problem.

Edited December 23, 2013 by OutOnTheOP

[Watari]

Similar to this BB gun:

 

Normally a BB wouldn't penetrate a TV... just leave a mark on the screen if anything.

 

 

WOW that TV is a bad ass :lol:

Must be a russian construction

[jimcarrel]

Regardless if it penetrates or not. Can you imagine the suppression effect?

Well, go ahead and imagine it. Cause it would happen.

[Scrim]

Well suppression doesn't cause armoured vehicles to go up in flames. And playing the same mission with M60 door guns made the problem even more obvious. One M60 burst, one dead BTR.

[maturin]

I've been in a Stryker hit by 7.62x54R AP ammunition fired from a PKM at a range of approximately 350 meters. It did nothing more than chip the paint. It didn't leave a scratch (with the exception of breaking a vision block, from which we recovered a penetrator. The WIT guys said it was a tungsten-core round, but I don't know about all that; I thought Warsaw Pact AP was hardened steel penetrator).

IIRC, the Stryker is actually a lot tougher than the BTR. It's supposed to withstand 14.5mm on the sides, allowing it to outclass equivalent APCs.

 

Also, armor protection doesn't work in a 'linear' sort of way. If you look at videos of tank or body armor, projectiles that may have only half the kinetic energy needed to penetrate (bear with me on the hypothetical numbers) usually don't penetrate halfway through the armor. Modern Level III rifle plates can't handle anything out of their class, but within their class, projectiles simply shatter uselessly, barely scratching the surface. You would only be able to gradually bore through in laboratory conditions, not on a battlefield, shooting from a helo 500mm away. It's never going to happen.

 

 

Older BTRs and BRDMs could definitely be penetrated in weaker areas, though. Otherwise, you could shred the tires (AFAIK they can move on rims, but slowly) and maybe land some lucky hits on/through optics, gunports, etc.

 

So yeah. Short burst and ANNOYED BTR. Annoyed BTR with a much bigger gun than you. Miniguns aren't exactly wonders of accuracy and shot placement, either. Even against a BTR, you might end up just knicking a few passengers.

Edited December 31, 2013 by maturin