JayPee Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Well, I wonder why? What's the point of still using a fixed HUD in conjunction with an HMD? I would think it is less obtrusive to the pilot's view and since the whole base unit for the HUD could be left out it might give the opportunity to lower the front dash giving an even better front view? Take the Apache for example. Edited January 14, 2014 by JayPee i7 4790K: 4.8GHz, 1.328V (manual) MSI GTX 970: 1,504MHz core, 1.250V, 8GHz memory
Ghostraider Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Apache have a moving cannon A10-c and Fighter have a fixed How do you shoot with a fixe cannon when you have a Moving sight ??????? A fixed Canon need a fixed sight. The HMEC are to lock Targets for the "new" Misssiles Sidewinder X, Iris-T the can defeat targets behind you. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]www.49th.de
Flagrum Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Well, I wonder why? What's the point of still using a fixed HUD in conjunction with an HMD? I would think it is less obtrusive to the pilot's view and since the whole base unit for the HUD could be left out it might give the opportunity to lower the front dash giving an even better front view? Take the Apache for example. My guess would be a) redundancy and b) "too new". Either HMDs are retrofitted to existing aircrafts with existing HUDs or the aircrafts are so new that for example the first versions came without the HMS, i.e. the HMS was/is still in development. Maybe the next generation will come completely without a HUD - either as the HMS will cover all needs ... or the pilot sits in his home office and flies the plane with his xbox style controller :o)
danilop Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 ... What's the point of still using a fixed HUD in conjunction with an HMD?... Redundancy? Murphy's law? To paraphrase your question: "What's the point of still using a gun in conjunction with missiles? :smilewink: EDIT: sniped by Flagrum :D
Eddie Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Helmet mounted sights are still pretty new and still evolving. In most cases they are additions/upgrades to older aircraft that already had a fixed HUD. The F-35 does exactly what you are asking, it has no fixed HUD with all the functionality given to the HMS.
Flagrum Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 Apache have a moving cannon A10-c and Fighter have a fixed How do you shoot with a fixe cannon when you have a Moving sight ??????? A fixed Canon need a fixed sight. The HMEC are to lock Targets for the "new" Misssiles Sidewinder X, Iris-T the can defeat targets behind you. Fixed in relation to the target, sure, but not neccessarily fixed in relation to the pilots head. How the pipper/target marker is projected does not really matter as long as it is projected at the target. :o)
JayPee Posted January 14, 2014 Author Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) HMDs: why do HUDs remain? Guess you all have a valid point regarding newness, redundancy, and HMDs being an upgrade applied many years after the design of an ACFT. Yet I find it odd that the 64A has had the IHADSS since the first model without setting a sort of industry wide trend. Edited January 14, 2014 by JayPee i7 4790K: 4.8GHz, 1.328V (manual) MSI GTX 970: 1,504MHz core, 1.250V, 8GHz memory
Ghostraider Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 What i Say !! You cant fire ("fixed or unguided Weapons") with a moving sight you can only lock the targets with HMCS ( in Jets) the new Sidewinder x have the feature to follow as well when the target is behind / beside you [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]www.49th.de
Eddie Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 What i Say !! You cant fire ("fixed or unguided Weapons") with a moving sight Not only can you fire fixed or unguided weapons with a moving sight, a moving sight is required in order to employ them accurately. It makes no difference whatsoever if you are projecting the "sight" onto a small piece of glass that is fixed in place, or to the visor of a helmet.
Flagrum Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 What i Say !! You cant fire ("fixed or unguided Weapons") with a moving sight you can only lock the targets with HMCS ( in Jets) the new Sidewinder x have the feature to follow as well when the target is behind / beside you That might be what is implemented nowadays. But we, well I, were discussing the general possibilities.
GGTharos Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 What are you talking about? The HMD is not a sight, it's a display that includes a sight. You can easily have a pipper for a fixed gun displayed in it - why would you think otherwise? The HMD will also display your own sensor contacts, off-board (ie. datalink) contacts including your own side's aircraft and possibly ground forces, and will let you cue your sensors wherever you're looking. It's not just for cueing weapons. What i Say !! You cant fire ("fixed or unguided Weapons") with a moving sight you can only lock the targets with HMCS ( in Jets) the new Sidewinder x have the feature to follow as well when the target is behind / beside you [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
sobek Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 It makes no difference whatsoever if you are projecting the "sight" onto a small piece of glass that is fixed in place, or to the visor of a helmet. I don't agree. In a fixed HUD, the collimation is set to infinity, it can be calibrated and that's the end of it. In a HMD, the sight moves around with you, which means that the control unit of the HMD must measure your head orientation and position "very" precisely so it can position a projected pipper/velocity vector (basically everything that used to rely on collimation to point in the right direction) where it needs to be so it does indeed point in the right direction. The refresh rate also needs to be higher so there is no discernable input lag. Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two. Come let's eat grandpa! Use punctuation, save lives!
FoxHoundELite Posted January 14, 2014 Posted January 14, 2014 one thing for sure,it will add alot of benefits in dogfight :).I heard the Russian will also equip their PAK-FA with HMS in the future...... For the US side ,still no news about F-22's new HMS(thanks to the budget cut last year,Obama :( ) Feel the Rush of Superior Air Power [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
TraxusIV Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 I don't agree. In a fixed HUD, the collimation is set to infinity, it can be calibrated and that's the end of it. In a HMD, the sight moves around with you, which means that the control unit of the HMD must measure your head orientation and position "very" precisely so it can position a projected pipper/velocity vector (basically everything that used to rely on collimation to point in the right direction) where it needs to be so it does indeed point in the right direction. The refresh rate also needs to be higher so there is no discernable input lag. I am a physicist, and I endorse this answer. If you disapprove of this post, please feel free to give me negative rep. If you approve of this post, please feel free to give me negative rep.
Nealius Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 I'm surprised no one has mentioned the clutter aspect. I imagine the HUD can display much more info (and more detailed info) than a helmet-mounted display can. I'm talking practicality, here. Obviously a helmet-mounted display can be capable of displaying all of the same information as the HUD, but it would be very, very crowded. Imagine trying to visually acquire something with a giant HUD with 50 different pieces of info right in your face everywhere you look. That and the helmet-mounted display would probably need to be "hidden" whenever the pilot looks into the cockpit so as to not interfere with looking that the MFDs, instruments, or switches. Or I could be completely off.
GGTharos Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 No, the HMD will display a lot more, and in a much more comfortable and useful manner. And sure, you can blank/transparency it if you're looking at the instruments. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
TraxusIV Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 HMDs tend to only work for a single eye, too, don't they? One of the advantages of the center HUD is that when you're slewed to a spot on the ground, the little square (in the A10C for example) looks like it's sitting on the ground, in full stereoscopic glory. If you disapprove of this post, please feel free to give me negative rep. If you approve of this post, please feel free to give me negative rep.
GGTharos Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 You could get some extra info if look up JHMCS and various alternatives, as well as the F-35's HMD. I don't know all the details myself, but to answer your question, they're displayed in binocular glory as well in those particular devices. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
lunaticfringe Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 Yet I find it odd that the 64A has had the IHADSS since the first model without setting a sort of industry wide trend. Part of it has to do with the experience of the USN with VTAS and SEAM back in the 70s. The all-aspect Sidewinder was found to already be useful enough with the frontal aspect shot and the small minimum range. Conversely, given the desire for substantially enhanced medium range capability, the investment in missile/systems integration went to what we now know as AMRAAM. (The interesting part is that when you get down to the hard data, that decision may well have been more correct than people realize when they compare the HMS/R-77 combination versus the AIM-9M with SEAM...) The other part is as was mentioned by sobek by the requirement to hand off to the fixed weapons. The engagement dynamics of an M61A1 at 450 knots attempting track a co-speed bandit breaking hard into the firing platform are totally different than an M230 being carried around at 60-100 knots and plinking at a stationary soft APC. Plus, the M230 has a CEP the size of your local neighborhood supermarket.
Nealius Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 No, the HMD will display a lot more, and in a much more comfortable and useful manner. And sure, you can blank/transparency it if you're looking at the instruments. How would it not be cluttered? Even if it were to be presented in a clean way, would it even be possible to include elements like TVV/FPM and the pitch ladder?
GGTharos Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 The HMD can also display properly located symbols ie. a SAM umbrella to your right, a friendly datalink symbol on your left, etc. All that info does not need to be right in front of you as in, 'in your HUD'. You can have a pitch ladder and TVV if necessary, but if you're not looking right in front of you, do you actually need this info? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Nealius Posted January 20, 2014 Posted January 20, 2014 I see. What you meant by "more" and what I understood as "more" were two different things. What you meant was "more" as in additional info that is not already in the HUD. I was thinking "more" as in everything that is already in the HUD plus all the additional stuff.
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