Katmandu

You also need to wait for several minutes for INU/GPS to align if I am not mistaken. Shift+L and ctrl+home would be quicker and yet still more immersive than fast forwarding time. Once in the air, yep, outside a few switches, Ka-50 is pretty much Su-25T with rotors. Although... :) Still, you do need to manage the fuel pumps on longer missions (simple high level algo would sort it out quite easily, although of course human operator would be better at fuel managing) and countermeasures have their own programmable panel. And there is no select weapon button, you have switches for "inner" and "outer" pylons (not as obvious as having a "select weapons" in controls options). And Datalink panel needs learning (once again a simple algo would automatically add new targets to Abris screen). And little things like turning on de-icer and dust protection... Individually all procedures are no rocket science, but it all adds up to those infamous 600page manuals :) I think delving into a full sim like Ka-50 (never mind A-10C or F/A-18C) is a psychological thing. You do not know in advance that you only need to "master arm on, laser on, shkval on, select weapon". You have to learn the "which panel does what", "which functions are essential", "which functions could be ignored", "which abbreviation means what" stuff first. So you still have to start learning the full module, read instructions, guides, and then, by about the time you've learnt it, it dawns on you that it is not that hard after all. Until you go away for a while, forget most of it and have to start again :) Having an FC3 mode gets rid of such a fear factor, and makes learning procedures truly quick, while still leaving plenty on the plate to enjoy and providing a stepping stone to a full sim.

Valid point for comparing current scratch built FC3 and full sim modules. Only partially valid if comparing scratch built full sim and subsequent FC3 conversion. FC3 conversion may either loose this functionality altogether or have its algo automatically input TACAN settings for final destination airfield and/or fuel tanker if present in a mission. Then FC3 player would switch to TACAN like he currently switches to ILS. See my F-16/F-18 "FC3fication" post. (https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3454878&postcount=77) Partial functionality would be kept in FC3 and player would be able to react to JTAC for example. See F-16/F-18 "FC3fication" post- some simple waypoint creation would be possible in FC3 version of full sim, but yes, full sim would have a lot more precision and tools here. Simple radios only for FC3. See my Ka-50 and F-16 suggested FC3fication. Sensors in FC3fied module would operate in an identical manner to full sim Impossible in FC3fied module. DM would be identical but if shot up in a FC3fied aircraft, it would either limp back to the base, or you eject. Like in FC3 - Chaff, flares, both. No programs for timing and serial releases. Of the 3 A-10C Campaigns that I have flown, most missions would be possible if A10C was FC3fied. A couple of missions would not be possible - those that involve editing existing waypoints for example. If the said scale has only full sim and FC3 - yes, FC3 would be arcade. If the scale was also to include Ace Combat, Hawx, Strike Fighters etc - FC3 would not be at that end of the spectrum, it would rightly be classed as a simulator. And once again, the thread is not proposing to replace, abandon or ban full sim modules! In fact I said it myself that, with all the costs and difficulties involved, it may not make sense to make exclusive FC3 modules from scratch. FC3fication implies having a full module as its starting base, with all the benefits that research and development of a full sim brings.

No FC3 exclusive modules lets hope :)

Completed the campaign, many thanks again feefifofum! Really enjoyed it and it works perfect in 2.5 (outside of the "Justice" mission 1, still not sure if inability to divert the plane is a broken trigger or mission design). Completed missions 7 and 8 too, thanks for the tips. I've flown pretty much the whole campaign in VR, and it works good in that respect too - apart from missions 4 and the last two (way too many ground units, fps in VR becomes unplayable, on single monitor it's OK).

Falcon 4 was "simulator of the 90's" ;) Thus LOMAC and FC1 were design choices, not constraints of technology. FC1's Su-25 gave birth to AFM, which to me personally was a more important and bigger evolutionary step in flight sims than full clickability originally offered by Falcon (more on AFM below:)). So do I btw! I also think that with the difficulties and costs of making AFM(which in turn often includes fly-by-wire AP - as in F-15C and Su27/33), DM, systems and 3d modelling it does not make sense to stop short of creating a full sim module. So there should not be any more FC3 exclusive modules imho. There may be exceptions - as to nearly any rule - but the general rule should be thus, I completely agree. Yep, many people get so hung up on operating the plane that they forget about actual flying. If somebody thinks that he has learnt the "lowly FC3" F-15C, he may try duelling with some local "Experten" :P (same plane, fuel load, weapons) and learn the hard way that the actual flying is the hard part - managing optimum AoA, speed, climb, trajectory... I've seen people lose 10-0 in "same plane guns only" duels :D

Еще резонное замечание из ветки с опросом: Имхо это не так, но можно обсудить ГС3фикацию подобных многопрофилей, заодно ближе к названию ветки чем Ка-50 :) Общие моменты: Курсор всегда становится SPI если его двигает игрок. Coolie hat или DMS по-прежнему есть в раскладке и им игрок переключает между дисплеями - как и в тренажере. Все сенсоры автоматически привязываются (slave) к курсору/прицельной рамке если ее двигал игрок. Автоматический захват мэверика если игрок сделал заxват цели в TGP/на радаре. (чтоб игроку ГС3 не надо было захватывать цель в TGP, делать SPI, включать slave, переключатся на дисплей мэверика, делать подтвержадющий захват им и лишь потом стрелять. Тут- захват TGP и выстрел) 1. Запуск- Shift+L, Ctrl+home как в примере Ка-50 2. Базовая автоматизация процедур от которых можно полностью освободить ГС3шника. если радио_высота >0: Master arm on, laser arm on, maverick boot up, TGP boot up G-limiter переключать автоматом в зависимости от веса самолета CBU cluster bomb - поставить высоту раскрытия 700ft 3. Воздух-воздух: Процедуры идентичны стандарту ГС3 (range, антенна верх/вниз лево/право; TWS/RWS; пульс (прибиж/удаляущихся целей); BVR, Vertical Scan и Helmet Sight mode. Остальные можно для ГС3 версии опустить. 4. Воздух-земля: Те же клавиши что и в В-В режиме здесь управляют range,snowplow, GM (стационарные цели), GMT(подвиж цели), Norm to DBS (ширина луча или разрешение картинки радара). В принципе это все те же "навел курсор, захватил цель, нажал пуск" :) 5. TGP: Опять те же клавиши что и в В-В. Высокоуровневой функцией соединить norm and wide уровни зума с их отдельными постепенными зумами. В ГС3 бысть будет один постепенный зум который идет от минимума wide до максимума norm. TV and White hot режимы, Black hot недоступен ГС3. Активировать N/M автоматом при включении TGP. 6. Карта/TAD Опять те же клавиши что и В-В режим. Функциональность ограничить до создания новых ППМ, выбора существующих ППМ (которые тогда автоматом становятся SPI). Автоматом создавать новые ППМ при получении координат от JTAC. если JTAC послание на экране игрока & TAD выбран SOI & игрок нажимает клавишу "Х": ввести координаты JTAC в CDU и показать ППМ на карте. 7. Ловушки: Как в ГС3, никаких хаток CMS и программированных выбросов

I do not see the problem personally. Yes, FC3 F16 (F/A-18C) would be more complex than FC3 F15 by definition, but their FC3 iterations would still be considerably easier to pick up and come back to than the the full sim versions - which is the whole point of this thread. The F-16C (F/A-18C) FC3fication algo :) could run something like this: (a) Start up - Shift+L, Ctrl+home similar to my Ka-50 example (b) Basic automation (FC3 player completely spared)- all on take off: Master arm, laser arm, maverick boot up, TGP boot up G-limiter auto set depending on current plane weight CBU cluster bomb - set height to 700ft 1. Air to air modes/procedures : Same as current FC3 craft (range, antenna up/down left/right; TWS/RWS; pulse (for hot/cold air targets)); BVR, Vertical Scan and Helmet Sight modes (the others may be omitted). 2. Air to Ground Radar: same buttons that control a2a radar above would control range,snowplow, GM (stationary targets), GMT(moving targets), Norm to DBS (beam width=radar picture resolution). At its most basic it's "slew the target reticle, lock the target, fire" - just like a2a:) 3. TGP: Once again, controlled by the same keys as a2a stuff. Replace norm and wide discrete zoom levels + continuous zoom with continuous zoom only throughout the range. %replace here means augment with high level function like in Ka-50 example TV and White hot modes only, leave out Black hot. Activate N/M automatically on start of TGP. At its most basic it's "slew the target reticle, lock the target, fire" again. 4.Moving map: same keys as a2a stuff Functionality limited to creating new waypoints, selecting existing waypoints (automatically becoming SPI) and autocreation of waypoints from JTAC transmissions (e.g. if JTAC transmission is shown on screen & TAD is SOI & player presses key "X": automatically input the coords into CDU and display this point on the moving map) 5. Countermeasures: Same as FC3, no complex programs, one button for chaff, one for flares and one for both. General points: The cursor always becomes SPI if moved. Still have Coolie hat/DMS to switch between each screen (sensor of interest SOI). Maybe all sensors could always be slaved to the reticle on currently selected screen if it (the reticle) is moved. Automatically activate maverick lock if locked on target on TGP or radar. (to avoid having to do the "TGP>lock>select as SPI>slave all>switch to Mav display>confirm lock> fire" routine, here it would be "TGP>lock>fire"). I do not see how people who wanted a fully clickable F/A-18 "loose their money" if others get a cheaper but also more simplified F/A-18. And, there are two ways of profiting: via separate FC3 module OR via "FC3 mode" replacing current "game mode" in full sim modules. (need to know actual sales numbers here, so the sale strategy is not up to us). I'd be happy with either as, the way it is at the moment, I will never buy some of the modules in my list not because of the price, but because I don't have the time. Obviously, if I am interested in FC3 part of the full sim module only, I would more likely to pick up that full sim+FC3 bundle during sale, if I am interested in the full sim as well, I'd be more happy with the full price. Also, some FC3 modules like the F-16 and F/A-18 should cost more than the 15$ we currently pay for FC3 Su-33/F-15C as the former are more complex with more sensors (a2g radar, TGP) and weapons (HARMs, mavericks, guided bombs etc).

We've discussed this exact issue in the general FC3 topic https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3450169#post3450169, here are some quotes to save me retyping the answers:

That's cool guys, if nothing else it goes to show that even if a cheaper FC3 F-14 was available, there would still be plenty of hardcore market left for the full sim clickable version. Passion's good

;)

Хаха, я думал самый быстрый, тему в ветке ГС3 создал... А тут уже несколько страниц обсуждений :D

Лучше бы конечно чтоб он был Су-27СК чем Ж-11, но лучше так чем никак наверное :) https://www.facebook.com/pg/dekaironworksims/posts/?ref=page_internal

Su-27 with R77 will finally become official. MiG-29S, I still love you:) https://www.facebook.com/pg/dekaironworksims/posts/?ref=page_internal

The thing is, this hybrid module would behave in an identical fashion to an FC3 one, even though it is completely different underneath. Thus, if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck - it is a duck. But inside it is not a duck, it is a complex beautiful swan :) But it's a duck :) So if it looks, has controls and has difficulty like FC3 you can sell it like FC3 (or bundle as DCS-lite, FC3 - whatever- with full sim module).

The post linked in OP is not actual code, it is psuedocode with comments (after %). Go through specific lines of that pseudocode that you find childlishly simplistic. I did not say that writing this extension was "trivial", I only said that this kind of program is much-much easier and cheaper compared to developing an FC3 module from scratch. Not at all, the sensors, propulsion,suspension physics, flight model, damage model, weapons... all the systems would stay exactly the same as they were in the full sim. 100% the same! The thing that is changing is the control of the sensors, engines and other systems - like in my pseudocode example with the Ka-50.

Su-25 was the very first AFM module with advanced damage modelling to boot, all the way back in 2006 when there was no DCS, but only LockOn:Modern Air Combat: Flaming Cliffs (long name:)). An Petrovich, the inventor of AFM at ED, then started working on the Ka-50 before leaving the company to create (fully AFM) WW1 birds in Rise of Flight. And "Possible" is good, but feasible is better :) I'd love completely new planes in FC3 too though. But for now, if F/A-18 replaced the game mode by the good old FC, that would be great too:

In an ideal world - yes. But in a real world, resources needed for AFM, 3D+texturing, systems development at FC3 level are very significant. Adapting a hardcore module to FC3 is much faster/cheaper than developing from scratch, there is no doubt about that. (my reply from the F-14 thread)

В ветке с опросом былa резонная критика что Тренажер нельзя просто порезать местами и в итоге получить ГС3:) Какой-то функционал может конечно и можно порезать/пропустить, но основное решение - это надстройка более высокоуровнего кода который автоматизирует/спрячет сколько-то тренажерной сложности. Берем конкретный пример алгоритма как сделать из полного сима Ка50 ГС3_Ка50: import холодный_Ка50 state as coldKa50 import все_включено_до_и_включая_ВCУ state as apu_Ka50 display coldKa50 %игрок ГС3 появляется в кабине "холодного" Ка50 если инпут= "Shift+L": display apu_Ka50 %вся авионика мгновенно запускается в стиле ГС3 если инпут = "Ctrl+Home": продолжить автостарт Win+Home %таким путем экономится время которое уходит на начальное щелканье кнопок и синхронизацию, но игрок сам инициирует и наблюдает классную раскрутку роторов пока радио_высота > 0: главный_СУО = вкл режим_СУО = ручн иначе: главный_СУО = выкл %таким образом эта функция полностью автоматизирована и ГС3шник о ней даже не будет думать/знать ---------------- %может быть можно использовать логику внутриигровых ботов если невидимый_напарник_бот интерпретирует цель_в_рамке_шквала= летящая & приближающаяся: %цель приближающийся самолет/верт режим_воздух_воздух = вкл ППС = вкл если невидимый_напарник_бот интерпретирует цель_в_рамке_шквала= летящая & удаляющаяся: режим_воздух_воздух = вкл ППС = выкл %ГС3шник по-прежнему просто наводит рамку на цель и нажимает захват, не зная про режимы воздух-воздух. И так далее и тому подобное... Для самолетов оборудованных радаром цель алгоритма автоматизировать управление до той стадии где игрок управляет поворотом и наклоном антенны, пульса и TWS/RWS. Некоторый функционал может быть полностью пропущен, например тонкая настройка ширины радарного луча. Если в тренажере есть выбор на сколько делений ставить скан (bar scan), то ГС3 может иметь например 2 варианта- широкий и узкий лучи. Идея такая, короче :)

Absolutely correct, simple deleting would not turn full sim into FC3! To condense/simplify a full module to an FC3 one you build a high level algo on top of the full sim module (while fully ignoring/deleting some functions, but for the most part higher layer of code is needed). For example, take Su-25 and Ka-50 - same Shkval TV, same Vihr laser guided missiles, both have cannon... How to simplify Ka-50 into FC3? Through this kind of algo: import cold and dark Ka50 as coldKa50 import "everthing up to and including APU is started" state as apu_Ka50 display coldKa50 %FC3 player appears in cold and dark pit of ka50 if player presses "Shift+L": display apu_Ka50 %all the avionics and apu are insta started FC3 style if player presses "Ctrl+Home": continue with autostart win+Home sequence %this way time is saved on clicking initial switches and waiting for alignment, but player gets to see the cool rotor spool up if Ka50= airborne: master arm switch = on launch mode = manual else: master arm switch = off %fully automates this and FC3 player never gets to even think about it ---------------- %maybe borrow some logic from ingame AI if locked target as interpreted by "listening onboard AI" = airborne & hot: %incoming target aircraft air2air = on head on aspect = on if locked target as interpreted by "listening onboard AI" = airborne & cold : air2air = on head on aspect = off %FC3 player still operates the Shkval by simply slewing the reticle and pressing "lock target" button without having to learn a2a shkval modes Etc etc... For radar equipped planes we just need to aim to automate the systems to the point where the player controls radar antenna, pulse, and TWS/RWS. The rest needs to be automatised. We are not "deleting stuff that is too hard for FC3" but building a layer on top of the current control layer that will have less complexity. Some functionality may be omitted altogether, eg fine tuning radar beam width. FC3 player would only have e.g. 2 options for that. If FC3 plane is developed not from scratch , but from full sim module then all the physics - flight model and damage model would be 100% shared.

I'd like a full sim Mig-29 myself, but the reality isupscaling FC3 to full sim is like upscaling a blurry image to a hi res one (the easiest way is just to get a better camera and take a new hi res pic). Much harder than go from hi res to lower res. 2. Ok, not simple, but *simple* ;) Simpler (much-much simpler) than creating an FC3 module from scratch. 4. I have tried (?). Coming back to FC3 after a long break (a year say) is much easier than coming back to DCS or BMS.

A fair point! Of course the economic details need to be worked out by people with access to sale numbers of FC3/FC3 standalone planes/Full sim modules. There are always negative strategic effects ,but it is possible to negate them. Plus there are positive strategic effects too (people buying full Hornet module after positive FC3 Hornet experince; initially they may have been put off buy the difficulty/time drain but now understand the basic mechanics and want more). The potential solutions may be along the following lines:

The conversation is hypothetical at the moment, with the developer also (it seems to me) taking a hypothetical stance I.e. the project is potentially possible, but ...implementation details. The potential implementation may be interesting to discuss - hypothetically of course :) With regards to "FC3 philosophy" - it is my opinion of course, but it is not about having keyboard shortcuts instead of clicky buttons. It is about having shallower learning curve and less overall complexity than full sim.

Thank you for your answer! "Compiling" and also disabling (some) functionality would be the way for FC3, the ultimate control and thus ultimate performance should rightly belong to the full simulator mode. For example, in full sim mode, one may be able to control radar antenna up/down, left/right and also fine tune the width of the beam by selecting how many bars to scan. In FC3 mode, the player would also have the up/down right/left controls but have (e.g.) only two options for beam width. TCS video would have manual control in full sim, but be always autoslaved to radar in FC3. Full sim mode would have soft lock mode, but FC3 would only have TWS/RWS and hard lock... I have not flown/studied the F-14 just yet (waiting patiently for your module :)) so can not go into every specific detail, but the general idea - compile (like you've said) and also remove (i.e. make inaccessible) the "less necessary functions". JESTER AI is of course something that I do not know, so if the above was logical for "downscaling" a full sim single seater, it may not apply to JESTER. To continue this hypothetical "downscaling into FC3" conversation, imho keeping some partial cockpit clickability (is there such a word?)) is actually desirable in FC3 module. Memorising keyboard shortcuts (especially for less often used functions such as TV/NORM switch in F-14, or fuel quantity in F-15, or salvo mode selector switch in Su-25 ) should be optional as it is much easier to click that labelled selector in the pit than remembering to press "Ctrl+Alt+D" or something. Anyways, the main feature of FC3 is Shift+L to turn on avionics and Ctrl/Alt+Home for left/right engines :D Joking aside, Win+Home autostart takes several long minutes and does go against FC philosophy quite a bit, not many new players would be willing to put up with it.

Servers make their own rules on plane sets. No, but I know what you mean. I've said similar stuff myself to a guy who wanted FC3 level Ka-50 :P : https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1847963&postcount=12 Years later I see that was a bit wishful thinking on my part (did manage to convince him though). Link? Although Wags' famous signature "everything is subject to change" gives us hope anyway :) Also, what about replacing "game" modes? Surely you'd agree that "FC3 mode" for F/A-18 would better than the existing "Ka-50 game" or "A-10C game" (have you tried them?)? ============== So far the arguments and counters are roughly thus: 1. Harms multiplayer - (no, servers make their own rules. You do not see "A-10C game mode" farming kills- because they are not allowed by servers(?) ) 2. Harms development of full sim stuff -( no, it is *cheap'n'simple* high level coding and brings extra revenue and customers) 3. Against philosophy - (no, FC3 was the cornerstone of DCS and continues to be enriched) 4. Full sim is near as easy as FC3 anyways if you use autostart - (that's a no, first hand experience coming back to DCS/BMS after long breaks)

You suspect, but you assert and impose your personal viewpoint on the whole community. FC3 is part of DCS, no less than any other module, it has its philosophy, its community, history and future (that MiG-29 AFM:pilotfly:). No need to patronise FC3 fans by telling them "you've got enough already to progress to the right thing". Progression to full modules is not a given. I've played FC3, I also enjoyed A-10C, Falcon BMS and Ka-50... and still like flying in FC3:) I do not want to learn the systems in M-2000 or the Viggen, but I'd like to fly them nonetheless. I intend to own all 10 of the modules listed in my poll and I know that there is no chance that I'd be able to remember the procedures for all of them. Yet I would like to keep them flyable - just the way I can hop into Su-25 and F-15 at this moment (A-10A not so much as it lacks the targeting pod). So FC3 and "full sim" are not at odds. Plus, developing FC3 modules from full sim ones would bring additional revenue into the sim, not the other way round. It's cheap compared to developing an FC3 or a full module from scratch and it would bring extra customers and revenue.