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This is my holy grail. The design is one of my first, before I had any of the tools/machines I have now, or will have by the end of this year, and without any means to connect it to DCS. Now, with my workshop being close to operational, and more than one software solution to connect motors to DCS, everything needed is readily available and my knowledge is much greater. I will re-do the design once I have the regular hotas prototype operational. I think you have this backwards. The designs are the baby steps. I can't spend 50k on a prototyping/manufacturing shop over a single idea/product. It's called "not putting your eggs in a single basket". I designed quite a few things now, and will design quite a few more before you see anything going for sale. 8 out of 10 new businesses fail, guess how many of them started over a single product? There is more than one example of small flight sim product manufacturers that went out of business despite having a great product. They just couldn't recoup their investment fast enough because all of their profit margins had to be dumped on a single product, making it quite expensive and killing their quantities. I can spread the same profit margin over a dozen products, making them much cheaper. But I can only do that if I design all those products first. So without the throttles, gimbals, engine gauges etc. there are no cheap grips, and vice versa. Mine is a long and hard (that's what she said!) way , but it's the right way.

Sorry for the silence folks, but as usual, silence means work. Turned out an industrial size non-metal laser cutter is a big priority. There will be engravings on the grips and a panel on the throttles, along with actual cockpit panels I plan on making. Also my custom 3d printer is 80% laser cut plexiglass and many other tools and jigs also. I had plans to outsource the cutting, but quantities became too large, or their lasers too small and too expensive. So, for the last month or two I've been designing my own 2x3m laser cutter, which will in turn be used to make several 3d printers and panels and engravings needed on all the products. There's also a custom packaging foam cutting machine, cnc painting machine and many other tools I need to design and fabricate myself in order to make this project industrially and financially viable. That is, on the scale I have in mind at least. Parts are arriving, things are in motion. But, in that 1% chance the large scale plan doesn't work out, I'll just switch to plan B and start producing these on a smaller scale, with some outsourcing and with a little less profit. So don't worry. They're coming one way or the other. I have some backups, so in case my laser cutter runs into problems or delays, I have already outsourced parts for a few 3d printers so I can proceed with the grips themselves. They should be operational next month, so I hope to have functioning warthog grips out there by the end of this year.

Hi guys for the past month I had to take a brake. Had a little sim overdose and was a bit burnt out :) It's also the middle of summer here so the temperatures are killing me. But, many things to come in the next months. I will be having base and ejection handle prototypes made, and finishing my equipment and tools so stay tuned...

What a great insight, and how great of you to make it public. Best half hour spent since.. i don't know when.

If you're going by my post, I used poor wording there and that particular statement was not correct. Obviously the shorter the stick, the less movement it requires for the same effect.But it's a very weird and limited wrist movement vs. a very natural and easy full arm forward. In other words, a wrist might engage 30% of it's uncomfortable range to level the plane, vs. the arm that has to engage 15% of a very natural range. Although the actual distance measured is greater for a long stick, the arm has several times more range of movement then the wrist. Plus the warthog spring is quite strong on the wrist, and with an extension it's barely noticeable. To me it seems this is a question of what is "cruise", first. Otherwise we're comparing apples and oranges.

Could it be there in case of damage emergency? What happens if your elevators, wings and flaps are shot up. Did I read here the plane was nose heavy, or it could become that if the wings lost lift due to damage? So with the stick useless in pitch, it could still be controlled by trim?

Airbus is fly-by-wire so no high forces, and it's also civilian so no dogfighting and tiring wrist maneuvers, but smooth, light and very rare inputs during a long and uneventful flight. Most of the time the airplane is controlled by dials on the auto pilot. F-16 uses force sensing so you still use your upper body and upper arm muscles to exert force horizontally (yes it twist somewhat but a miniscule amount), not twist your wrist to exert angular movement. It's also a modern jet where your goal is to engage as far away as possible without ever getting into a maneuvering fight , where the WWII pilots goal is quite opposite. Get as close as possible therefore throwing him into a high stick force dogfight almost every time. In addition to that it has a 25 lbs force limit. P-51 required about 90 lbs for a 5G turn. Try that with your wrist :) F-22 and F-35 also force sensing? And BVR and electronic/hydraulic enhancements instead of close up mechanical dogfighting. Of course joystick forces are nowhere near any of those mentioned, but still too much for the wrist muscles, unnatural and nowhere near the precision. And that's where the simmers "this can't be right?" comes from, I think. Maybe none of the pilots complained about the forward stick during high speeds because there wasn't a need to? No center detent to chase all the way, two and a half times more leverage regarding stick length and several times stronger muscle used. Just maybe it was piece of a cake to do that, just like some of the guys here with extensions are saying it is. Now get back to constantly having your wrist rotated forward for a 10 minute flight, which is by the way THE most uncomfortable, unnatural and limited wrist movement of all 4 of them (oh the irony)... and I can completely see why there would be a disagrement between simmer and performance evidence, resulting in "this can't be right?". What's not right is your stupid desktop joystick, that's what :) And mine too :)

I won't say who's wrong and who's right, most of you debating are much more knowledgeable about the aircraft performance part of this debate. This might not be directly related to the subject, but indirectly it might be the very cause someone thinks a certain performance cannot possibly be correct because it's just too uncomfortable (for a simmer with a joystick). Real world flying: Desktop flying: Using ones wrist joint and lower arm muscles for demanding and continuous work is completely wrong and unnatural. Of course, a desktop joystick is a cheaper and simpler solution than an extension and a center mount, but that doesn't lessen the fact that it's a completely wrong setup. ( I still fly with a desktop joystick, so no bias here ) The upper body muscles are several times stronger. Shoulder and elbow have enormously more freedom of movement than the wrist. So the wrist joint has much less movement and is much weaker, yet it has to perform tasks that are much more demanding. Because in a real aircraft like the 109 the top of the grip is probably more than 20 inches away from the pivot point, while on a desktop joystick it's 8 inches at best. A much shorter lever to help your weak wrist out.Meaning double the deflection needed for the same effect of it's real world counterpart and double the strength needed, all the while using a body joint that has several times less movement and strength then the ones used for it's real world counterpart. Completely underrated is the fact that the real world pilot has one muscle for each of the controls inputs. One muscle for left roll, another for right roll etc. Meaning that in the most demanding maneuvers 50% of his muscles are still relaxing, and preparing to be up for work next.While at the wrist, even on a single control input like left roll, all of the muscles are engaged, therefore none is ever relaxed. There are just so many things, on top of each other, wrong with the geometry of desktop joysticks, multiplying the inconvenience and discomfort of flight that it boggles my mind we still do it :) So when you complain about something not feeling right, being weird or uncomfortable, just keep in mind that you are testing it on a completely wrong setup. My main point is: What is a complete discomfort and weird to understand for a simmer, might have been just a minor inconvenience for a pilot, and completely worth it for the engineer trying to make the plane lighter and faster. I will finish with a parallel that might put things into perspective: You are being asked to paddle your bicycle with your wrist & fist (not even with your arm!)... and somehow it doesn't feel right and is uncomfortable. Could it be that there's something wrong with the test setup here?? :D Again, not saying anyone is wrong requesting realism, or if that request is right or not. BUT if you're requesting complete realism, it would only be fair to first get a completely realistic setup to test on. :joystick:

You might want to try something like this first: a 2048x1536 resolution, 9.7" ipad 3 screen for 38$: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-LCD-Display-Screen-Parts-Replacement-For-Ipad-3-3rd-Gen-Generation-/310659626027?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4854c1b42b and a controller for 30$ : http://abusemark.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=47&zenid=2ndov3i519ricbb4erfc89vh56 Removing the backlight and metal plate should not be a problem as I know people are using them for 3d printers and they have to remove polarizers and glare shields and reflective layers and whatnot...

After some more thought, yes I do believe it is a standard lcd tft panel. Or one with a "reversed" firwmare where it is transparent when "off", as opposed to a regular one which is transparent when "on". if you take the one from my link, hook it up to a pc and put a 100% white screen on it, the "lcd" will turn transparent (with no backlight and no casing). So if you can output a green hud on a white background, it will display only the hud. But it all depends on the light coming from behind it. So if you were to fly a night mission I am affraid it wouldn't work, as there would be very little light coming from the DCS screen, unless you devise a way to project a separate light source onto the panel... It's a stretch, but I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya :) Edit: the picture of the "transparent" lcd on ebay is kind of misleading for anyone not familiar with lcd panels. Every lcd is "transparent" when turned 100% on. But without a backlight the lcd doesn't produce any picture. So if you were to put this "transparent lcd" into a dark room, there would be no image on it, regardless that it actually displays something. You need bright light (and white background) behind the pixels to have anything displayed.

Interesting. But isn't this just a regular lcd panel & controller with the backlight and casing removed? Also 800x400 resolution may be a problem for hud display? Wouldn't it work with a 50% cheaper 1080p lcd panel and a controller for it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VGA-Lcd-controller-board-11-6inch-1920-1080-N116HSE-EJ1-lcd-panel-/181751031255?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a5134a5d7

Yes, and this will be something I will test out. Although it would be a "half-solution". I am working on a realistic helicopter trim and would like to include it all in one base if it works out. Mechanical engineering is mine, Milan does his magic in the firmware/electronics department. F-14 and all other grips will follow soon after. Being able to easily switch grips is the main goal of this project. Both stick & throttle grips. Absolutely. But the very size of that crowd would overrun my capacity. Once these prototypes are tested thoroughly, manufacturing ramps up and I am no longer a one-man-show, I will definitely take a look at Star Citizen. Very easily, yes. But only after a set of RIO controls for the F-14, would be a more logical choice :music_whistling: I will discuss this in more detail when the design is tested and approved. Biggest benefit is a complete lack of center detent compared to a single-spring-per-axis cam style systems. Not sure solenoids can be used for a flight sim ffb? Even if they can, ffb is a much more complex project than that. There are also patents and expensive licenses involved I believe. Not to mention all the firmware and electronics. I believe that a much simpler and cheaper solution for "flight effects feedback" is a DIY bass shaker system, for which firmware is available and cheap, recently even a DCS specific one. And then implement only a force loading effect to the stick itself, let all the other effects come from the airframe/seat where they belong anyway. A base with a force loading system and "bass shaker ffb" is something I will do for myself, and offer the community at some point. But, baby steps first. A 4$ arduino uno will make the ejection handle a standalone product, along with the many other handles and levers I have planned. Or a 12$ teensy board or something like that. These are only digital inputs, no axis so there would be no need for a fancy feature rich firmware. I'm hoping to hit a 60$ mark at first, and lower it once the product list expands and the machines/assembly lines are working full time, and all the metal fabrication is done in-house. Keep in mind these are goals, not facts :) (but not pipe dreams either)

The extension is not bent in these renders, and the ejection handle will be offset further into the seat but yes, it's a concern. But it needs to be done one way or the other because it would bring an enormous improvement over the desk/chair mounted stick, more improvement than all the other features combined, in my opinion. Especially if it can be done at virtually no price increase at all.

Yes I see now. To make it clearer, it's not that I want to manufacture the base along with the grips, I just want to have the designs in an advanced state of development, ready to be manufactured months after the grips go out for sale. Instead of starting development after the grips go out for sale and have the base ready a year from that and drive customers, who would have waited a few months for me, to TM or Saitek. So now I just have to finish up the early prototype design of the throttle base and then focus shifts back to releasing the compatible F-18 grips for sale. While the grips are selling, people will be aware that there's more coming shortly after, in the meantime base units will go out for testing since the prototype designs were finished while I had no other distractions or responsibilities other than designing them. Their operation has a massive overhead and I'm not sure they could find profits in this just yet. As the technology and the process matures and develops it might turn out to be possible.

This, for anyone new to the thread. Yes, the stick base is 3/4 of an inch wider than the warthog (in a fully encased version), but uses the same mounting pattern, and has a "zero" length extension too. Same for the throttle base. The pivot point and "zero" length extension of the desktop and chair mounted joystick is the main problem a lot of people have trouble controling an aircraft in high fidelity sims like this. Warthog in a zero extension length has 1.5 inches of pitch up travel. Since it claims 12bit or 4096 position accuracy, that would mean you have to move the stick by 0.0003 inch increments, which is totally impossible for a human. I say a human can do 1mm or 0.03 increments in arm precision during a flight/combat, which would mean a desktop stick gives you 50 increments of precision. The 5 inches of pitch up ravel that is stated in station geometry mil-spec, and is what I use in my design, brings that number to 166 increments of precision, that's more than 300% increase in available precision, without you as the pilot learning a single thing to make you a better fighter/flier. As I tend to offer these mounting arms and extensions bundled with the base and cheaper then warthog, I hope it would start a small revolution as to how virtual fliers experience the whole thing. Looking at the obutto, the same geometry mounting arm should be possible. I'll look into it, and any other seats suggested.

Here's a "little" update: For the past month or two I have focused my attention to designing the stick and throttle base. It might not be apparent from the renders, but the base is just slightly larger than the warthog one, with a ton more features: -steel construction -separate springs for pitch and roll axis -adjustable spring strength (by replacing the springs) -"on the fly" adjustable pre-tension of the springs -hydraulic damping (adjustable by oil replacement) -built in stick extension (fully adjustable in length and grip rotation) -adjustable office chair mount with ability to rotate and fold the whole thing under the seat -adjustable stick displacement in all directions separately -functional safety pin and "remove before flight" tag -ability to connect up to 6 more axis and 40 buttons (I plan on designing replica and "desktop general purpose" type panels to connect to both stick and throttle bases -tri-axis SPI interface 14-bit resolution hall sensor, programmable in a million ways -the whole thing is designed per F-18 cockpit station geometry (extension length and grip position) and can be set up to have the same amount of travel/displacement as a real F-18 grip AND a bonus for all of your patience. Fully functional chair mounted ejection handle: -all steel construction -industrial grade shaft bearings for extra smooth pull/slide movement -dual action ( first it activates No.1 switch, then No.2 switch ) so you can map it to both canopy jettison and seat eject -functional safety pullout pin (pin operates a slide master switch so no action until you remove the safety tag and the pin) -possible additional ARM ON/OFF toggle on the top plate? I probably forgot to mention some of the features. Note that this is a still evolving design. Just wanted to let you know that the wheels are still grinding. Most of the work went into re and re-designing, removing part by part, and reducing the size until I was left with the smallest possible container, with the least amount of parts possible to perform the task. And then it was off to designing the tools, jigs and machinery to manufacture each part. If it doesn't have machine/tools designed for it, it is not in the renders. There are no CNC manufactured parts here, which should keep the price way down. Laser cutting steel is still pretty expensive, but i plan to make a few pieces and send them out to respective members of this community for a closed beta test. After we solve any problems, and they put their stamp of approval, they'll do open reviews and I will consider a crowdfunding campaign for a metal laser cutter which will reduce the price by 40-60% as this is the biggest cost and the last piece of the puzzle. F-18 grips alone are pretty much ready for production, but I do not want to improve Thrustmuster or Saitek sales by selling grips only. And that will happen If I get tied up into fulfilling F-18 orders of TM and Saitek compatible grips, and people who want more have to wait unitl I design, test and manufacture my own base system. I will put the TM and Saitek compatible grips for sale first, but I need to have at least some prototypes of my own system before I do that. Even more important than that, a low price like saitek is only possible through standardization of products, parts and processes. And standardization is only possible if you design multiple products at once. At least a few of them. This constant delays due to research, design and development will save a huge amount of time and money later on. No throttle base renders yet, but expect the same amount of features and configurability.

Oh yes I guess that would be true. And the stick would slowly creep forward as more airflow would flow over the elevators if I'm not mistaken. Time to hop in one of the WWII birds I gues...

Why would the center point change with speed? Unless you're talking about changing it yourself with trim?

Oh I guess you researched making custom sized lcd's, custom electronics and mfcd models to make your own two pieces, yeah right :) So I should just shift my focus on printing some clear knobs, or handles with no electronics or mechanics, sell a few pieces and that would make me more of a professional in your view, than developing cutting edge machinery to make replica hotas :megalol: Cause I can make that excuse too you know, and a lot cheaper and with a lot less effort. "Hey guys I can produce 5 grips a day without making my own machinery, no electronics, not pre-drilled nor painted and you have to do your own mounting solution, and they'll be 300$ a piece... oh there's no interest?? Too bad, not my fault, scrapped". And then criticize someone taking on a poject like mine. We all have a life beside this so that's no excuse either, especially if you're gonna criticize others for their life getting in the way. I am well aware that you're making quality castings and I respect that, but you should get off your high horse and not compare and criticize someone doing a project that is not even comparable in terms of complexity and investment. For all my items I can go to a professional company too, and offer you guys products that are several times more expensive and it would not cost me a dime and would be done in a month or two, maybe I should cause apparently that would make me more of a professional. And after low or no interest due to high price/low quantities I could make all of your excuses too. I've taken a much harder and longer road. Criticizing my timeline is a very cheap shot coming from someone with a longer timeline, with a project which plan is to outsource all the actual work :doh:

https://www.shipito.com/ There's probably A Netherlands local website that does this also.

For someone who started his project of product only, with all the measurements necessary, way before mine and does not have a finished prototype yet, you're are in no position to criticize on the timeline. I have to design and manufacture my own machinery plus electronics and firmware, in addition to the product itself. And I already have several functioning machines and a finished prototype of the product. Can you show me your mfcd's, glare shields etc?? On topic, here you go Dafiew: -same 12mm hole, 20mm pole switch http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/100SP3T8B13M1QE/100SP3T8B13M1QE-ND/3777894 -wrong Chinese replacement, 6mm hole tiny pole. But if you pull out the pole from your busted switch and hammer it onto this one, and use large washers you could mount this one too http://www.ebay.com/itm/mt88-SPDT-ON-OFF-ON-Mini-Toggle-Switches-EP07-/121359710364?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item1c419a389c

Done and done.

This is a perfect example of what I will not do :) First, back a few projects so people know you've been to kicstarter before and are not just in for a quick scam. Second, if you're "ready" to produce a few grips, you already have a ton of pics and presentations to share. I know I could fill up 10 pages of a thread with pics only, and I'm not even "ready" to produce yet, they claim to deliver in 3 months. And last, invest at least a third of your own money to show that you're serious. Very fishy and not at all professional. Gotta watch this one in case my pics end up as presentations...

Quick question before an update: what's the deal with shut off, idle, afterburner etc. detents on the F-18 throttles? I know people requested a mod for warthog throttles, to change the "lift-up" detent to a "push-through" detent. Should it be like that? And how many detents should there be (and for what)?

I thought buttkicker products work with dcs, as best as they can, out of the box? Just plug and play. If that is not the case, and you need extra software (like simshaker) to get the best out of them, could you avoid buying buttkicker altogether, and buy components for a home made system? Like buying a multi channel amplifier, and a couple of subwoofer drivers. Mount it to a sim chair, and hook that up to a pc sound card and your software? EDIT: Ok I googled diy buttkicker/bass-shaker, looks like it's very doable. I'll do my homework, and contribute to your campaign because I would very much like the force feedback from the sim to be on the sim-pit/sim-seat where it actually belongs, leaving the joysticks to be handled by force loading.