GunSlingerAUS

Hey mate, thanks for the suggestions for tweaks - Thud's guide was my first stop for tweaking the HMD, and then moved on to many, many more. I ended up spending over 100 hours trying to get VR working to my liking, all to no avail. No dramas, as I love 2D. Just a quick note - the bit you said about WMR settings actually has a huge impact on performance. Unfortunately they didn't label it very well, so it's quite confusing, but if you opt into the Windows Insider program you can get it updated to better reflect what each setting does. Rather than try to explain it myself, you can read about it straight from one of the WMR developers at Microsoft. I believe you when you say you don't see any stuttering, but I'm sure that if I was to use your PC and HMD I'd notice it. I think I'm just very susceptible to things like this. Out of interest, do you notice the rainbow effect on DLP projectors? I sure do, but many people don't. If you've never heard of the rainbow effect, you probably don't notice it - lucky bugger! Thanks again for going to so much effort to try to help me get my Reverb stutter free.

For $20 perbmonth they could have a team of 5 devs who run a centralised server farm that runs an online war. They could even have people manning the AWACS and ATC. The possibilities are freaking amazing. I remember being awestruck when I played iRacing, and think a dedicated online team for DCS could do the same.

I read that post too, was rather interesting and also the impetus to finally post something I'd been thinking about for a while. I think the sustainability of the financial model Mr Grey talks about isn't the safest bet. The only reason I think a subscription model would be good is that it practically guarantees the ongoing success of ED, and I get to fly my favourite sim for many years to come. So me offering to pay money each month is actually very selfish!

Nice animation. Pity doing this results in nothing coming up about subscriptions: https://imgur.com/a/69v1uk9 The few that people have linked to included a whopping 5 sentences about the subject to kick off such a complex hypothetical. They're rather lacking in depth, like all of the posts saying it's a bad idea.

So, after 30 minutes of faffing about, I can definitively say... capturing through-the-lens video is an absolute bitch of a job! After about 20 attempts, I got one half decent capture on my GoPro running at 1080p 120fps. And the bad news is that when I watched it back, it didn't really show how prominent the ghosting is in real life. There were a few brief glimpses of it, but nowhere near the same as what I see. It's particularly bad when flying over that town at about 700ft and looking left 90 degrees - every single structure is blurry and fuzzy, as they have a reprojection hovering behind them. My in-game counter showed that the minimum frame rate was 45fps, bouncing around up to 60ish, but only scraping below 45fps once or twice. I can upload the video if you like, but it doesn't really show what I'm seeing. For some reason it seems to blur motion out, so rather than the stuttery/ghosting that I see, buildings just have a faint halo-ish effect around them. Anyways, I've tried every single thing you can think of, and then a dozen more ;) From something as simple as updating Windows, to testing the different performance of every combination of the new WMR settings, I've run out of options other than to wait for new hardware, or a dramatic overhaul of the game's VR performance. I'm not phased that I have to wait, as I love the game as it is in 2D. In fact, even if the image in VR was smooth, I'd be hard pressed to go to VR due to the very poor visibility, and the loss of all the detail that you see in 2D. Flying at 3440 x 1440 @ 100Hz looks absolutely stunning, and I'm seeing so many small details that weren't possible when flying in VR. But I'm glad you guys are enjoying VR, as you'll be able to let me know when it's finally ready for my annoyingly demanding eyeballs! A huge, HUGE, HUGE thank you to the guys who spent considerable time discussing it in this thread - it's nice to see some folks are up for a good debate!

Thank you so much for going to the trouble of filming that. It does indeed appear smooth, so I'm going to capture mine now for comparison. Can I please ask what your SteamVR, WMR and game settings are? Are you using the VR shaders mod? This was captured on a Reverb, right?

Not sure what you mean by this. Tearing results from the way an image is drawn on display devices, which is from top to bottom. A complete image is not instantly drawn across the entire screen; it has to fill every pixel from left to right, line by line downwards. When the display is out of sync with the output device that is throwing frames at it, in the case of a game being the graphics card, you often get two different frames being drawn on a single screen draw. The top part will be of the newest frame, while the bottom will be the old frame. The line between the two is the tear, and its position can vary depending on what stage the screen draw is at. V-sync and Variable Refresh Rate technology ensures that only one frame is displayed per screen draw, so you never see that tear. In the case of a camera filming a screen, because the camera is capturing frames that aren't synched to the display output, you'll see lots of these tears. However, they're displayed more prominently as thick black bars scrolling down the screen. This video is a prime example: As you can see, that tearing is very different to image judder. There's also a more detailed explanation that does a better job than me here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_tearing Well, that's my understanding of what a tear is - can I ask what you think it is?

I see your disdain for this idea, but a red emoji face doesn't really explain why, nor inspire confidence that you've actually thought this topic through. I can only assume you don't like the idea of a monthly sub as you have to spend that small amount each month on sunscreen, which is far more important than the hobby you love possibly more than most other recreational activities? It's a question of priorities mate! :megalol: You'd honestly give up this pastime because you need to pay the same as 5 coffees per month (that was just a spitball figure of $20, ED would know what a reasonable amount would be that would give them the breathing room to work on DCS as a whole)?

I'd love to hear. I personally think that the majority of issues that the community loves to complain about - mainly that the core DCS platform needs more love, and the lack of finish on modules - could be solved with a subscription model. The fact that modules are now being released with less features suggest that ED needs to pump these out to stay afloat, which isn't a great sign. If we had a sub model, ED could invest more resources into completing these modules, and the overall financial health of the company would be steadier. I have absolutely no visibility of ED's finances, but as somebody who has closely analysed the game development community for a couple of decades, I see some worrying signs. No one thing is a red flag, but there's quite a few little red threads here and there.

Please see the initial Pros and Cons that I put into my post. I think the pros far outweigh the cons, on the proviso that ED invested their regular, reliable income back into the game. Obviously with enough profits for the owners to be happy chaps!

So in effect it seems you've made up your own subscription model if you're choosing to buy extra modules that you don't play. I'd guess a small portion of the community did so, and it would be interesting to see exactly how much they spend in "supportive" modules, and then average that out over a year. Even just two modules would cover the cost of an annual subscription, and ED would have the financial freedom to start developing more than just modules. I think this is why ED went down the path of releasing an entirely new game - they'd be well within their rights to make all existing modules limited to DCS 2.5, though the community would not be happy. They wouldn't leave though, as there's no place else to go. Personally I'd prefer to not buy "supportive" modules that I don't use, and to know that ED doesn't have to release an entirely new game to boost revenue.

I'd say that Adobe is a bit of an outlier compared to the dozens of successful content subscription services - iRacing, Xbox GamePass, PS+, Spotify, Microsoft Office, etc. I don't think picking out one bad example means all subscription services are terrible, and Adobe has started to massively cut prices as a result of the negative feedback around their service. It'd be the same as every other game on the market, other than MMOs, If you cancelled your subscription you get to keep all of your modules for life. You wouldn't lose anything at all, but ED would need to finish all existing modules first. Sorry if my post suggested this, I didn't intend it to. I think a monthly subscription fee would be fine.

I know they’re there from the Tacview replay, as the Helos are the mission objective for the first mission in the campaign Persian gauntlet. AWACS doesn’t detect them either. I’ve run the mission about five times and got Jester to scan the exact height and direction that they’re in. He also doesn’t detect them regardless of range. I don’t know how to use the RIO station at all...

You sound like a man who knows his radars! What would you suggest to be the best way to detect helicopters, without having to learn the RIO seat in the Tomcat? I've got a mate who is about to start learning the RIO seat this week (funny how a free copy of the Tomcat module as well as a free brand new X52 motivates some people), but in the meantime I'd like to get past the first mission in the Persian campaign.

No, I'm saying that I can't occupy the F-14's pilot seat in the way that it was intended. I'm not sure if it's the fault of Heatblur's AI coding, or the DCS engine, but when I said "Aaaah DCS", I was referring to the game as a whole. Sorry, would you prefer if I cloned myself so I can occupy both seats simultaneously, then clone another dozen of me to ensure the DCS code will allow the Tomcat's radar to pick up a flight of three helos flying in tight formation at 1000 feet? I'll get right on it.

Alas I have no idea how to fly RIO, so guess I'm stuffed? Randomly flipping to PAL doesn't seem plausible either. Oh well, will just have to fudge it. Ahhhh DCS!

Just checking if your latest video used a through the lens capture? It doesn’t appear to.

Regarding the shooting of a 45fps image at 60fHz, won’t the only visual anomaly be screen tearing, and not judder (stuttering)? Or is that incorrect? Will grab video now.

Great to see the feedback here. It seems like the option of a dedicated online war might be of enough appeal to justify this. Or not. I do find it a little odd that players are happy to spend the equivalent of 5 years worth of subs on a joystick, but won’t shell out the cost of 5 cappuccinos a month for the platform that runs our entire hobby. If ED ran their business like a western company, we’d have much better visibility on their financial health. I hope that if the company does start to struggle, it would approach the community early enough to raise funds, as we all adore DCS. I think most players would help get the company back on their feet, as we know that our hobby wouldn’t be the same without ED leading the charge. But having visited Moscow and St Petersburg game studios a few times, from my experience Russian companies operate beneath a shroud of secrecy.

But I only know to use Pal because I cheated by using TACVIEW after the fact. What would I do without cheating? AWACS can't seem em, I can't see em, and sure as hell can't literally see em!

I don't necessarily think ED is going to collapse in the next month, but I do get the feeling that they are struggling a little. It's not one thing in particular, it's lots of little things. If they were, and subscription was a way to improve things, I think the community would be very receptive if ED was open and honest about it. We all know there is currently no competition to DCS, so I reckon the community would go to long lengths to save our beloved hobby.

I've made my suggestion for a solution to this issue a little clearer in my original post. I don't think that it's much of a hurdle at all. And what happens if ED goes out of business because the ongoing method of revenue via modules proves impossible to maintain, which I personally fear could be a real possibility?

That's not what was suggested - those players who didn't want to subscribe would have full access to their existing content, and any modules purchase before the subscription would be finished to an acceptable level.

Goddamit, I knew I'd get beaten to the punch! Oh well, the community has voiced its opinion, so please ignore me now :cry: Actually, after reading the first couple of pages, that thread wasn't so much a healthy discussion as a suggestion lacking in detail, which was then pounced on with very little explanation. I still think there's room for a deeper, more intellectual debate about this. It's not like this is a radical suggestion - there's a reason I love my Netflix's and Spotify's, and so do the majority of consumers. It'd be interesting to hear how many of the people who said no in that thread use digital content subscription services?

Would you pay US$X a month to subscribe to DCS as a live service? **Please give a detailed explanation behind your feedback** I’m not sure if this idea has been posed before, but thought it would make for an interesting discussion given the current status of DCS. I’m not going to spend a huge amount of page space detailing my thoughts, as I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and… you get the picture. Instead I’d like this to be a discussion thread where the DCS audience all gets to list how they feel about such a proposal, and the pros and cons for moving to a subscription model. Personally, given the large number of hours I play of DCS each month, I think something around the tune of US$20 would be an absolute bargain compared to every other form of entertainment I currently use. So hell yes, I’d sign up, and probably chuck them a year's subscription if it offered a discount for buying months in bulk. I’d also continue to buy modules for the same price they sell for today, as I think the massive amount of work that goes into each one is deserving of a one-off price. The hundreds of hours I get from each module also makes it worth the buying price. I paid for both the subscription and vehicles in iRacing (the cars were cheaper, but they are much simpler, and tracks are also sold separately), the only other sim product with the high level of quality yet niche market that DCS has. So do another 50,000 to 90,000 other active iRacing subscriptions (that’s the number I could find after a brief search, would love to see more accurate numbers). In my mind, here are the pros and cons of a subscription model for DCS Pros: • A constant, reliable income for ED, which will allow them to spend more time developing the core game rather than new modules. This is arguably the biggest benefit. I could spend pages talking about how this could help ED, but I think it's pretty obvious. • This reliable income would allow for a true live service, with constant servers run by the company. This would not stop communities from also running their own servers – perhaps the best of these could be supported by free hosting by ED. Hell, we could even have forum software developed after 2012 ;) • ED becomes more accountable to the players. With a monthly subscription model, if the game is not in a good shape, players will cancel their subscriptions. • ED is less likely to go out of business if the current pay-for-module method doesn't prove to be sustainable (personally, I don't think it is) • The ability to focus on new features other than modules, such as a much-improved VR experience, a new graphics engine, better AI, etc. All of those myriad tasks that we want to see completed could start getting done, but which currently come second to modules. • The ability to start coming up with really outside-of-the-box ideas, such as an online dynamic campaign that can host squadrons, incorporate logistics and player hierarchies, mirroring the way Eve Online works with its corporations. • Again borrowing from Eve Online, ED could host real world events each year, such as an annual DCS-con, where module makers, developers, modders, skinners and players could all get together to talk, drink and shoot each other down from the sky in a blaze of glory... sorry, I'm getting a little carried away by the possibilities that an annual subscription fee could bring. Cons • It costs $20 per month. Some players won’t commit to this - why should they pay for it now when it was free before? Some players simply can't afford US$20 per month. • Why should players pay for new aircraft, maps, aircraft carriers, etc, when they’re already paying for a monthly subscription fee? • What happens to the support of the game for people who don’t want to pay monthly? (personally, I think ED could solve this issue – finish the existing modules and base game to a level of quality that would be acceptable in other game releases. People who didn't want to subscribe could happily play all that they've paid for. All new content thereafter would become part of the DCSubscription model. So, you now know how I feel about it, but I want to hear what you, the DCS community feel about it. I have no idea if players will think this is an absolutely stupid conversation to have, or whether it’s long overdue. Please, please, please keep this discussion absolutely 100% civil and polite, as I would hate to see a healthy debate get deleted due to a few idiots. And feel free to call me an idiot if you like, just please be nice about it! Have at it fellow sim-nerds!