Top Jockey

Now do we have an hardcore jet fighter pilot here. Those were the days ! Very well put togheter campaigns, full of briefing and be-briefing vídeos - immersion feeling on its highest. ... more than 20 years have passed, and I still recal that defeating Nomad was no easy task (at that time).

Well... be careful with those statements. ... or this guy at post #49 will come and make you admit, that the Rafale will fly light speed circles around the Typhoon. :megalol: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=258241&page=5

Hummmm... and what about the Hornet ? Or the Fulcrum ?

What ? MiG-29 SMT ? I fully agree - keep them comming ! :D

Thank you for your time experimenting this stuff. I've re-learned to appreciate the MiG-29 again, and knowing an aircraft's "weaknesses" is part of knowing it better. (In its case, the rapid speed / energy bleed while hard turning copmpared to others, as amongst several reasons it isn't FBW controlled, does need more AoA for the same Gs, etc.) Eventually managed to get better with it while ACM against AI opponents... however the Su-27's ability to not bleed speed so quickly (much like an F-16) when chasing the AI's JF-17 in sustained turns, did cause a very good impression on me. On this kind of "experimenting" , tipically I test both aircraft with the respective fuel quantity for roughly 3 - 4mins. full AB... but I guess the way you've done (full internal fuel) highlights even more the MiG-29's pitch rate (nose pointing ability). Also, if one pays the due attention, the MiG-29's supposed small Turn Radius does allow to get on the opponents 6 o-clock in somewhat better position (not so large turning room) than other fighters... provided one doesn't lose too much speed to get there either. Yes, it was posted already at post #158, but would also be interesting to know the pilot's opinion on turn / pitch performances, speed bleed rates while turning and that stuff.

Thank you. In that case I don't know why / how do they state a 450 kph speed in the link I've posted... as I'm sure the Fulcrum can maintain a slow turn without stalling and fall at speeds lower than that... Absolutely - the Deflection Limiter Override (also mapped in my stick), and that's how I've always been testing both the MiG-29 and the Su-27 behavior. In my not very scientific tests; 300 kts speed, 1000 ft above sea level, roughly level flight (near 0º pitch), 2 AAM, and very low internal fuel, I give a sharp pull on the stick - to nose up attitude, and pause the sim after 1 second passed: MiG-29A - using Deflection Limiter Override : attains 50º - 55º nose up Su-27 - using Deflection Limiter Override : attains 20º + nose up - using "Direct Control" (ASC) : attains 70º + nose up

Thank you. There are perceptible divergences in some values yes. And, indeed if the ITR and STR values might be more or less consensual (as they tend to appear in EM diagrams), on the other hand the Turn Radius ones are not so easy to come by - so I posted what I've found. I do have a doubt however on your references between STR and turn radius: - although maximum STR is supposedly similar for both ( 22 deg/sec ); - I believe minimum Turn Radius is not achieved at maximum STR, neither at corner speed - but at speeds lower than these circumstances; - they are different airframes; also one is FBW, the other is not... But there's a lot I don't know, so I come here seeking for data / info regarding those 2 aicraft's turn performance. edit: Pitch Rate would be (for me) roughly the ability of how quickly one aircraft can point its nose into a different direction in order to get a snapshot... so not being myself an expert on this, I imagine it can also be measured in deg / sec ? And in that regard, without using "Direct Control", the Su-27 seems considerably sluggish when comparing with the MiG-29.

The only "experiment" done by me was related to the Pitch Rate, merely by observation. At roughly slow speeds, 300 kts at low altitude, from level flight, the MiG-29A does show an higher pitch rate than the Su-27 (without using Direct Control). I do not explain anything about the Turn Radius, I've posted the links from where I've found them mentioned and ask if people think they are more or less legitimate. Like mentioned here before by others, higher pitch rate doesn't necessarily equates to higher ITR...

Thank you. Yep those numbers are from really low altitude. The diagram at post #139 from Hummingbird, shows a little bit more than 30 deg/sec of ITR for the Su-27... (By the way, I can also identify the STR hump, but where is the corner speed on that diagram ?) I really would like to see a similar diagram for the MiG-29.

I'll do, when I eventually force myself to install and learn how to use Tacview... Also the objective of many of my doubts is to have a better idea, of how both MiG-29 and Su-27 compare to each other in ACM (mostly in turn performance). Although a few moths ago I got somewhat disappointed with the MiG-29's dogfight performance (in comparison with others), I'm re-learning 1 or 2 aspects of how to do ACM again in it. Keeping in mind that it isn't always easy to find the most trustworthy general data on performance, I get the following impressions from EM diagrams here at the forum and several forums (indian defence forum, for instance), regarding absolute performances: MiG-29A ITR: 28 deg/sec STR: 22 deg/sec Turn radius: 300 meters at 450 km/h Su-27 ITR: 30+ deg/sec STR: 22 deg/sec Turn radius: 355 meters at 350 km/h Pitch rate: lower than the MiG-29's (if not using Direct Control) Does the above data sound more or less plausible ? From: post #1 https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/commercial-vehicles/166918-mig-29-fulcrum-balance-rests-us.html slide #34

Cool ! So I'll have my brand new F-14A tomorrow... :lol:

Survey filled. Thank you ED for the attention.

This was my doubt - as I thought that the ability to rapidly reposition the aircraft (its travelling direction) was in some way also related with its abilitty to quickly reposition its nose.

Hello again Ironhad and everyone... and thanks in advance again. :D I do have some doubts people: When you mention (and very well) that the Su-27 can rate its nose faster than the MiG-29, you meant in ITR performance, as shown by the numbers you posted (in bold). So I'm guessing that, you were already on a somewhat high speed ( 420+ kts in both aircraft ) sustained turn, and then applied a sharp pull on the stick, in order to achieve maximum Instantaneous Turn Rate. And in those circumstances, the Flanker achieved an higher ITR than the Fulcrum as confirmed by Tacview, correct ? Because, I'm also looking to another measure of performance - the Pitch Rate. (i know that Pitch Rate and Instantaneous Turn Rate are 2 different things.) And so certain doubts appear again - at slow speeds ( roughly 300 kts ), when applying a sharp puill on the stick, the MiG-29 does show a noticeably higher pitch rate than the Su-27 (without using Direct Control). ... so one can conclude that in therms of Pitch Rate, the MiG can move its nose around faster than the Su-27 ?

Sure, it's a fictional livery that I liked on th Fulcrum, and I was just kidding a little bit. I've read the S variant does alow 2º more of AoA than the A variant; but found nothing about different Turn Rates... do you have any info ?

Just reached 86.4º AoA with the MiG-29A... but it was in special circumstances though: - it was with a special projects version from the PLAAF (as you can see from dark grey camouflage and the right side fuselage eagle logo...) Yeah the chinese also have Fulcrums... just available at your DCS downloads page.

I've been experimenting with both variants of the MiG-29, and so far I couldn't find much difference in either AoA or turn rate. Managed to get 79º AoA for MiG-29S, and 76º AoA for MiG-29A. Regarding turn rate (sustained), they seem to pull roughly the same G's for the same conditions...

That's illustrative, but it's essentially about landing behavior and such. What did he told about the Fulcrum's maximum ITR and STR ?

For myself, never doubted that ED doesn't always mention each and every modification in the changelogs. Specially stuff like this (FM modifications), which is directly related with the aircraft's performance are crucial, and obviously tend to stir up great levels of rant from the people. Although I didn't try those changes yet, personally I'm not very fond of them, as anything which might restrain the Hornet's maneuverability specially at low speeds doesn't fit well on my book either...

Oh I see ! Sure you're right; as english is not my native language, sometimes that kind of stuff passes unknown by me. The PDF document came from another sim (which is now abandonware?) and the manual's title is: "NATOPS Flight Manual Free Falcon Air Force Manual / MiG-29"

My bad - "Y" key preciselly. Thank you for the insight. Now that you mention it, maybe I've read something along those lines here in the forum, something about different performances regarding the 2 different Fulcrum versions we have in DCS; but I never really looked into it. Would really be glad to know more, can you share some more light on it ? And what's with the NATOPS ?

I'm refering to the AoA limiter ( S key in game ), as: wouldn't using it allow for an higher Instantaneous Turn Rate ? Can you tell me the formula ? (Some sites ask for bank angle too ?)

Hello again everyone, NATOPS manual for MiG-29A, mentions in the turn performance diagram: - at sea level - clean configuration - gross weight: 28,750 lbs (roughly 50 % internal fuel) - maximum afterburner "quickest turn" - 26,64 deg/sec - which I take as ITR "max. sustained turn" - 20,77 deg/sec - which I take as STR Is this data attained without pulling the paddle switch ? ... however several sites throughout the web frequently mention, respectively 28 deg/sec and 22 deg/sec. The GAF flight manual states the turn performance in G's, which I don't know how to convert to deg/sec. If anyone knows different data on the MiG-29A I would really appreciate to hear it.

Thank you dundun92, I appreciate it ! :thumbup:

Airhunter, I do have the GAF MiG-29 in english. However with many charts it might have, it doesn't have one which states turn rates / airspeed, like the one Hummingbird posted above for the Su-27...