ddahlstrom

I tried out these settings last night, and they're not bad. Lately, I've been playing with the 1.01 non-FFB mode, which I consider the "best" mode--when it works. But unfortunately, no matter what I do, there's always about a 5-10% chance that it won't detect when I recenter the stick/rudder, causing control lockup. Increasing "spring" strength to 150% helps, but does not cure. Using the 30% sensitivity settings with FFB is at least consistent. It also reduces notice of the stick's central area "play/slop", and appears to minimize the hard post trim bounce. One trick that I've incorporated that also helps is the use of one or two trim clicks depending on what I'm doing. If I'm trimming just to relieve pressure on the stick, I'll click once. If I'm trimming to go hands-free, I'll trim once, then trim again a second later. This second click seems to do a fairly good job of suppressing the bounce when I finally release the stick.

I took a look at the review too. IMO there are too many good things about this combo that are overlooked here. On the negative points, it is important to note that there is no "deadzone" at the center, it is "play" (or "slop"). If it were a deadzone then no control would be possible in this zone. This zone is also controllable through software according to Logitech, and apparently there are some games in which this "slop" is not present. With all that said, Logitech needs to make it possible to remove this play from the stick for non-FFB games and for older FFB games. So I definitely put this in the nuisance (and growing) category, but the rest of the stick is quite impressive. Regarding the pedals, I'm not a lightweight and I don't see the evidence of chintzy design that the review reports on. Maybe I need to gain more weight. The only small complaint I have is of a tiny amount of stiction, that sometimes interferes with very small tweaks to the pedal positions. There are a few more small issues, but none of them really register with me as game changers. So what's my final verdict? Well starting at 100%, I'd take off 5% for the stiction in the pedals and between 5% and 50% for the "slop". It really depends on the game and how well you can deal with it. As far as I'm concerned, this slop just shouldn't be there. If this really is just a software thing as Logitech points out, then there is no reason why it shouldn't be possible to turn it off in any game. I've been able to deal with it ok for now, but if this problem isn't addressed in the near future, I won't be happy. Verdict: Right now the G940 = 90% However, this score will go down by 5% for each game I play and each month that goes by in which this problem is not addressed.

LOL, I hear you on wanting to get paid to use this thing. I think that the bottom line is that every mode is a compromise right now. For me, at the moment (and this might change by sun-up), I'm calling it like this. 1. Non-FFB using the old 1.00 style trim works with the G940, but I don't personally care for it. The slop really kills it for me because the trim lock is timer based in this style, and the slop prevents you from consistently pinning down center, so I tend to bounce around a lot. On a non-FFB stick, like my old X36, it was ok, but I recall when the new center-based trim came out with 1.01, I liked it much better and it worked perfectly on my old non FFB Saitek. 2. Non-FFB using the newer 1.01 style trim also works with the G940, and I find it is better overall than the 1.00 style, BUT--once again, slop kills it. It is better than the 1.00 style because when it works you know your controls are indeed centered and you don't bounce around as much (if at all). The problem is that the slop can make you work to find that center, and it's not that hard to get the aircraft locked up while you jiggle the stick around looking for it. A larger deadzone might help, but I hate deadzones. 3. That leaves FFB mode. Basically, I am currently concluding that it is the best of the three options on the G940 and worth practicing with and getting used to. Trim lock is still not tight due to slop (though slop seems to be more controlled in FFB mode), rudder centering is a pain, and overall it is less precise than the 1.01 trim mode on my non-FFB Saitek, but right now it seems the most usable option for me on the G940. Note that I've gone through all the threads, and tried all the tricks and tweaks, but have found that for me, using the default settings are pretty much as good as anything else. If you're up to experimenting, do it, but don't count on finding any magic. Note that while you can probably tell I'm a bit disappointed here, the G940 is a very young product, and everyone should know that early adopters often have to pay a price in patience while the kinks in their tech get addressed. Personally, I really like having FFB on my desk again (after having to retire my trusty old gameport based MS FFB Pro years ago), and trust that these bugs will be dealt with in due time.

The turn to the right it most likely an issue with the rudder logic. Try this. Display the control indicator (RCtrl-Enter), then give some rudder input and hold it steady. Observe the position of the rudder. Now click and release trim. What will happen is that the rudder position will immediately move, and you will experience this as a jerk to the right or left. What it's actually doing is shifting your currently held rudder position to the center. The trick (and it's definitely not a full solution), is to try to time your action of trimming and centering the pedals to happen synchronously. If you can manage to do this, the right/left jerking sensation should be mostly eliminated. In practice, what I've found seems to work best is to press trim, then center the pedals, then release trim--and to do this all in one smooth and quick action. It's not perfect, but seems to minimize the left/right jerking around. Note that some folks advise using the Z and/or X keys between the trim press and release, since this acts to recover absolute center on the pedals. In practice however, I've found this doesn't always work reliably and that you often need to jiggle the pedals around after doing it, just causing another kind of unwanted motion. Anyway, give these things a try, and see what you like. As far as the pitch up/down kick after trim, I definitely experience this too. No doubt about it. Another user on the forum here has suggested setting Damper Effects and Overall Effects to 20%, which does help. Unfortunately, the cost of this is having to set a global property on your stick that eliminates almost all sensation of force. It also doesn't completely solve the problem, though it does seem to reduce it. So I just leave the forces at 100% and live with it. Finally, if you find it difficult to precisely control rudder heading, I find that going into the Axis control in DCS and checking the Slider checkbox (to change the axis to a slider) seems to improve my control. You might want to give that a try. Note that elsewhere I advised keeping the axis and changing the curve to 50%, but have since found side effects to this that I don't like.

I hear ya. Right now I'm really on the fence. I really like the G940 overall, but the FFB implementation in DCS:BS is just not quite right. Perhaps the most frustrating thing is how *close* to right it is. If it was just flat-out broken, I'd ignore it and get on with my simming; but it's so intriguingly close to working that I always end up wasting time every evening with more tweaking. Ultimately, I'm convinced there needs to be a patch for the following items. 1. Need the ability to detach rudder from trim ops in FFB mode. 2. Need to program out the center "play" in the joystick in FFB mode. 3. Need to ensure that after locking in the trim, that I can safely remove my hand from the control without affecting the aircraft (assuming the optical sensor is covered). In other words, if I am in steady flight or a steady hover and I tap/release the trim button without moving any of the other controls, it should introduce absolutely no *new* motion in my aircraft; and I should be able to remove my hands from the controls and remain in exactly the attitude I set. This would then pretty much mirror the experience I had on my non-FFB stick when properly using the 1.01 style trim (with the exception, of course, of the need to physically re-center the controls before removing my hand). As for Logitech, I would love to see them do a few things as well. 1. Give us the ability to turn off the optical sensor in the profile. 2. Give us the ability to change the force settings in the profile (rather than just globally). 3. Give us the ability to assign commands to a button release event. 4. Give us more advanced scripting capabilities. 5. Give us the ability to eliminate/override the central "play" in the joystick for non-FFB games, or for legacy FFB games that didn't instrument whatever code it is that this stick requires to eliminate it.

I've noticed similar "slop". See post 16 in the post below from G940Mark where he talks about "play" for a possible explanation. http://forums.logitech.com/t5/PC-Gaming/G940-force-feedback-problem-crackling-sound/td-p/380795/page/2

1. Yes, as Shez says, that's exactly right. 2. Yes, you must center rudders. Hint: In order to avoid nasty side effects, you must press trim, center the rudders while holding the trim button, then release. 3. No detents on the rotaries. Kind of a bummer, but not a show-stopper. I really like the G940, though there are a few quirks I've observed. 1. The pedals gets de-calibrated occasionally. So far the only way I've found to correct it is to unplug the USB cable and plug it back in. This is definitely a G940 issue and not a DCS issue. 2. The profile software is more limited than expected for a stick of this caliber. You can't, for example, assign an action to a button release event. 3. There is a small electric eye in the side of the stick to detect your hand. If you remove your hand your carefully trimmed aircraft will likely take a dive. It's almost a necessity to cover it up. 4. As frequently reported, the multicolored lights on the throttle buttons are not used by any known software right now. No big deal, but something to be aware of. 5. Pedals have a small amount of stiction, which can make very fine movements a little tough. Could just be my unit, but I doubt it. The pedals are very nicely built (as are the stick and throttle). 6. When the stick is dormant, its not unusual for it to make a fair amount of motor noise. Gently pushing the stick to center will usually get rid of this. This has been reported by others so I know it's not just my stick. Not a big deal though.

Yes, I did try turning the force down. It's not the physical kick that's a problem, but rather the "virtual" kick, which seems to happen independent of the force settings. To some extent, this may actually be due more the goofy way the rudder trim works in FFB mode (note that the ZX fix addresses this to some degree, but I've since turned it off since it has it's own side effects). As for rudder sensitivity, I did have it on 0%. This by itself, however, does not provide adequate fine control. By changing the curve to 50% I now get very fine control around the center (vital for targeting) and coarse control at the greater extremes (great for spinning around). If it hadn't been for the very fine control I had on my X36 rocker, I probably wouldn't have known the difference. If I want to point 2mm to the right on screen, I should be able to tap the pedal, move the distance and stop without overshooting. I'm much closer to that now. Anyway, as far as FFB goes, I should add that everyone with a G940 needs to read your thread and try it with FFB on and make a judgement. It really is a cool effect that I like, and really tried to get used to (and to some extent did). In the end, however, it was sort of like my old eDimensional glasses. They were gee-whiz cool, and something I had to show everyone in my family, and try every game with. However, when it actually came to playing the game, they simply made most more difficult due to bugs and quirks. I'm not beyond believing there may still be some settings I haven't tried that work significantly better, but so far I haven't found them. On my previous stick, I discovered the benefits of frequent, precise trimming; but the FFB mode for DCS:BS is just too rough around the edges to give me the same precision. So off it goes...until another day. BTW, I will continue to follow your "guide" thread. It has a lot of good insight. Thanks for the effort. If you or others have any other ideas, I'll be happy to try them out.

Well I've gone ahead and turned off the FFB on my G940 for DCS:BS. At this time, at least with this HOTAS, FFB is not ready for prime-time IMHO. The rudder issue is a significant problem. Another is that FFB trim lock on the stick almost always introduces some kind of unexpected motion in the chopper, sometimes slight sometimes and sometimes worse, but not really predictable. By turning off FFB and going back to trimming by centering the controls, I have returned to having much more surgical control. I'm a little disappointed that FFB didn't work out, but not terribly. It's a new stick, and time is probably needed to work out the kinks. Hopefully, we'll eventually see a patch. Also as a side note, I was also having some trouble precisely controlling my rudder positions. I found that the rocker control on my old X36 was more precise as I could stop rotation on a dime with it. The G940 rudder pedals, have very slight stiction to them, causing motion to be ever-so-slightly jerky. This isn't an issue in general flight, but is when turning precisely in, say, hover. I don't think this is unit-specific a defect, but it does reduce fine control somewhat. To solve this, I've bumped the curve on the rudder in the BS control panel way up to 50% (and even more may still be needed). If anyone is having this issue, you may want to give this a try.

I tried this macro (and appreciate the effort!). It almost works. Unfortunately, it also has a fairly serious issue. What happens is that it first activates trim (T), then triggers the left (Z) and right (Y) rudder keys. The theory is that the rudder keys will undo the rudder trim. In fact, this is exactly what happens, but in practice there are side effects. If at the moment you trim you happen to be holding the rudder pedals perfectly still (common), this will end up neutralizing/centering the rudder and you will be yanked off course. Now on the positive side, if you move the rudders pedals even slightly during or after the trim, then the rudder position will return to it's original and expected position. This is good, but you've already been disrupted by that time. It it is also very hard to tell exactly what is going on unless you have the control window open. Now I should point out that the macro works almost perfectly if you are actually moving the pedals while trimming; but often that's not the best time to trim. My theory why these side-effects occur is that when you hit the ZX combo, the software is switching to a keyboard "mode" for rudder control and starting out by neutralizing the rudder position. As soon as you touch the pedals, however, it switches back to using the pedal axis. If you happen to trim while moving the pedals, the switch occurs so fast that you hardly notice it. Anyway, during flight/navigation, this macro works well enough that one could kind-of get used to it, but in hover, landing, or targeting scenarios where you're trying to keep the bird fixed tight, I can't consider it a solution. I now believe this problem would still exist even if the G940 were able to attach the ZX trigger to the button up event, so this is really a DCS:BS issue. Anyway, at this point I'm close to considering turning off FFB altogether in BS since at this point I could definitely trim better with the old X36 I just retired. Here's hoping that a patch (or even better, a hot fix) will be issued for this since I think there are going to be a lot of disappointed G940 users.

I just spent a fair bit of time researching how to assign a command to a button release event. So far, no luck. There simply does not seem to be a way to do this. This is a bit of a disappointment and serious limitation considering the apparent sophistication of this controller. Of course I could be missing something, but if I am, it's buried pretty deep. ...of course, it's also a disappointment that BS doesn't provide the ability to disable rudder trim when running with FFB, which would make this moot (for now), but that's another story.

Just got my G940 yesterday. Not enough time to evaluate yet, but enough for a few observations and questions. Construction looks very good for starters. My first flight was a wild one, but adequate to see the potential. Lots of things to like, but also lots of things to solve. I can see that between configuration and software updates, the next few months will be an adventure. Compared to my old MSFF Pro (which I haven't used in years due to gameport issues on Vista), the forces seem similarly strong. A quick test of trim left a grin on my face as the positional lock seems much more "correct". I'm not yet sure that I'm getting the trim backlash others are observing, but more stick time will tell. I'm definitely looking forward to getting this thing tuned. Now for the questions. 1. How are folks dealing with rudder trim? Does one need to center the pedals when trimming? 2. Is there a general consensus on whether using the internal controller configuration or the external Logitech profile software is better for programming DCS:BS? 3. Is everyone covering the optical sensor on the stick? 4. After shutting down a game and leaving the stick dormant, it sometimes produces motor noises continuously until I bump the stick a little. Has anyone else observed this?

I went straight from the TIR3 to TIR5. I found the 5 (with TrackClip PRO) to be dramatically more stable (less on-screen jitter) and the wider view to dramatically reduce track loss incidents. Note that your screen resolution will not alter how stable the view is from the TrackIR, only the resolution of the TrackIR itself will do this, and the 5 is tops in this category. From the research I did before purchase, it seemed that the improvement gap between the 4 and 5 was less than between the 3 and 4, but that the improvements were mostly worth the price delta. When panning the cockpit, I find that I want the absolute most stable and accurate positioning possible (fewer headaches), and for 6 DOF use I want the widest view possible; so if the 5 is an option, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.

I push. Like Zembla, I don't think the throttle resembles a real collective sufficiently for it to bother me. My throttle also has an afterburner detent when pushed nearly full that becomes annoying when running it reversed.

Would you set HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse to 0? I can't confirm since I don't have a FF stick yet (using this thread to validate the purchase of one). Can lion737 confirm whether this works?

Didn't lion737 say in a previous post that this doesn't work? Can anyone else who has tried this report on whether it works or not?

I just noticed another thread has now popped up on the same/similar issue. I'm just hoping there's an answer for this by the time the G940 is released, as I'm very much looking forward to it. Now that I have the patch installed, trim works better than ever on my X36 with its self-centering rocker/rudder (very nice!); but it looks like non-centering pedals may have taken a step backward. Any ED folks around to comment?

I'm currently using an X36, and haven't tried the patch yet. My rudder is on the throttle and is self-centering; consequently, the existing method of trimming works acceptably, and the patch should make it even better. On the other hand, I have also taken an interest in getting a better HOTAS with pedals, probably the new G940 with FF, in order to further increase the realism and improve my flying. The issue in this thread, however, is something that I thought about even before reading it and has me concerned. I think Lion737 is right in that non-centering pedals shouldn't require manual re-centering during a trim. A huge reason I'm considering a FF setup is to get rid of the artifical need to re-center *at all* during a trim operation. However, if I get this ability for the cyclic but I still have to think about re-centering the rudder pedals, I get the feeling this is going to be awkward, with possibly no improvement (or worse) than what I have now. Is it true that the patch really doesn't address this, and is this really the problem I'm making it out to be?

I was just doing a check for new HOTAS and had pretty much lost hope of finding a decent one with good FF support, and stumbled on this G940 system at Amazon. I will definitely be interested in hearing reports on how well this works with BS when it comes out. It's a bit expensive, but looks almost as comprehensive as one could have hoped for.

I'm obviously wrong, since apparently these instruments work; but I would think the backwash from the rotors would completely overwhelm these sensors--especially the vanes.

You could check in ..\Ka-50\BlackShark\data\scripts\options.lua and make sure that ["aspect"] is set to 1.6.

Just scanned the readme quickly. Didn't see anything about multi-monitor improvements. Has anyone heard whether any such changes might be part of the patch?

Small spelling mistake on pg 2, CHECK COLELCTIVE (should be COLLECTIVE).

I've already "purchased" BS, but the main thing I was always interested in is whether I will still be able to install this game after ED is gone. The pattern of good software companies disappearing seemingly overnight is not at all unusual (Jane's, Looking Glass, etc.). So while I can still play LB2 or System Shock pretty much forever--in fact, I just finally finished SS2 a few months ago--I'm assuming that my purchased copy of BS will be useless when ED is gone. I mean technically, when you're "purchasing" this software, you're really just leasing it, right?

I'm not a pilot, but I've taken a few flying lessons. Got as far as landing a plane once. One of the things I recall as being very difficult was looking for other air traffic in my flight path. My instructor would see a plane somewhere out there and point right at it, and even then I would have the hardest time seeing it. And even when I finally did, I was often surprised that he was ever able to pick out such a small speck in such a big sky. Of course, if I had continued, I'm sure that I would have gotten better at this, but it takes practice; so I don't think that I'd say that real life is dramatically easier. I would also take a small issue with the previous post about the lack of depth perception in the sim. By the time you get a few hundred feet away from your vehicle in real life, it's too far away (and your eyes are too close together) for depth perception to matter much. On the other hand situational awareness of the "big picture" is better in real life (although TrackIR makes up for some of this). But the bottom line is, whether its real life or a sim, locating distant objects while flying is not easy and takes practice to do it well.