hamza_Khan

Got it. Thanks

EFCS switch from auto to EFCS Now if you turn the aircraft gently it pulls up to 11.9Gs, wings snap off at 12G Not sure if its a bug or that's how the FM works.

Is there a texture template available for HQ-7 so we design more liveries?

Recently i ran across few interviews of Air Marshal Shahid Lateef (retd). found it really interesting. Just a quick background, He was JF-17 CDP (Chief Project Director) of jf 17 programme that was not able to start due to difficulties, Through his efforts, the project finally was brought back to life. The interview was in Urdu, here it is translated. So the jf-17 wasn’t always jf-17. It started in a very different way. It started with a plane we had, called F-7, it’s a copy of MIG-21. Our friends in china used to develop planes through reverse engineering. When JF-17 was made, this was the time when we helped them a lot in the development. I’ve said it multiple times, it was our brainware and their Hardware. And they also acknowledge it because we had experience in both war and western equipment. They said it all themselves. This is the reason why Chinese Air force never joined this project. They (PLAAF) told us we can’t help you in this project in anyway, because you want a jet similar to the west. Since we have no experience in western technology or war, You (Pakistan) will have to lead it, as for industry, in that we(china) have 35-40 years’ experience in development of aircrafts. We will help you in every way we can. It meant that we (Pakistan) will provide the concept and they (china) will help us with the manufacturing and hardware. That’s how they learned from us about the western technology and we learned from them about the manufacturing. As I said before we had a f-7, this the time around late 80s (In the interview he first said 90s then corrects it to late 80s). This was a difficult time for us because we were US Allies in the war of Afghanistan in which we greatly participated. After the war we came up with an idea to upgrade our F-7 fleet and we came up with the name super 7, because that time we were not qualified to make a plane of our own. We wanted it to be our front line fighter. We named the project Sabre II. We approached Northrop Grumman. We asked for their help in this project to discuss and see how they can help us with it and how much of it can be made possible. In this process we created a team, and we involved the Chinese too because they had very good experience in aircraft development. Chinese and us approached Grumman with Project Sabre II. When the discussions began, it took a long time and we went through all steps to see what we want and what Grumman can deliver. When talks proceeded to advance stages we felt like what we wanted Grumman couldn’t deliver it because what we wanted meant that Grumman would have to change the entire structure of the plane and changing a planes structure is just like creating a complete new aircraft. In short what we in F-7 was just not possible in this structure. End of the day we dropped it and we completely detached ourselves from it. But the Chinese didn’t, the ideas Chinese gained from it were very useful, and they started working on it internally. The Chinese understood that if f-7 can’t be upgraded according to PAF needs, we (Chinese) can develop new plane with a new structure. So what came out of all the discussions with Grumman was the Chinese started thinking that since we (china) have experience in reverse engineering, now all that learnt from Grumman, we (china) have to design a plane that is not reversed engineered. They started working on it. At this point project sabre II was a failure for us (PAF) but the name super 7 remained in our minds because we needed a new aircraft. China knew our needs and they were working on it. Now we enter the 90s, the most difficult time for us, sanctions are imposed on us. The sanctions were so bad that they stopped the maintenance of the f-16s we had at that time provided by the US as an aid (They were worth 3+ billion dollars and most of it was paid by the US) against war in Afghanistan. And the ones we had ordered ourselves which was not a part of an aid worth 600+ millions dollars which we paid for was not delivered. Now when we asked for our 600+ million dollars back since f-16s won’t be delivered they told us the money won’t be returned instead you can buy soybean or sugarcane worth the same amount. Now you can understand how difficult position we were in, Project sabre was failed/rejected. Current f-16s not being maintained. New f-16s won’t be delivered. And we lost 600+million dollars. For a country like us this was a huge amount. This is when the Govt of Pakistan told us (PAF) that we have to develop a plane indigenously. Now we again approached to our friends in china from Grumman times and presented them with our case. And told them this time we want an indigenously developed jet. Chinese were really kind to us. They told us that they did not spend any money in all the discussions that took place with Grumman, all was borne by Pakistan. But we (Chinese) gained a lot from it. From all the information we gained, we can work together and create a new jet. This is how Pakistan and China started working together on the new project but the name remained same Super 7. For the next 5 years (till 1999) the discussions took place between china and Pakistan about wide variety of things. On what is possible and what’s not. It was a long and difficult discussions because PLAAF were not involved, we PAF use to talk about Operations and since we were dealing with a civilian company they use to talk about business there was this huge gap. But this was our combination. At this time I (shahid lateef) was serving as Air Commodore. The Chief project director of that time choose me as deputy chief project director of operations. Aound 1998-99 a new CPD (Chief project director) was appointed. Remember until now this all super 7. I also moved and got appointed as Base Commander Kamra. I wanted to work in super 7 project but this was required step for my future (to serve as base commander). I was in regular contact with people involved in super 7 project. What happened was our CPD of that time had this weird thing in his mind that the Chinese can’t deliver us what we want. He was an F-16 pilot and he had this very weird and unusual thing that “they can’t deliver”. When this news used to reach me I would get real sad that we are wasting such a good chance to develop a plane. I never believed that the Chinese couldn’t help us. I tried my best to deliver this message through people to make sure this project keeps going on but I wasn’t there and this could have been considered as an interface. Now as I said before I was moved to Kamra (PAF Minhas). As you know Kamra is the home of PAC (Pakistan aeronautical complex which is present inside the base I was managing). Chairman of PAC was my academic teacher during flying school days. I was his student. Since we had a deep relationship I always used to go to him and complain that “What kind of approach we are taking by saying that they can’t deliver and there are talks that we are backing out. This is a very bad decision”. I use to complain as a base commander, I had spent 2 years as DCPD operations. I knew that the Chinese could deliver. When I use to complain to Chairman PAC, sometimes he would get angry and say “Remember if I ever get a chance, I will appoint you to this project and then you’ll have to deliver what you claim. Don’t forget. If I ever get a chance you will be in charge even if the project is stopped do you accept it and used to say YES” this happened many times. Now around 2000s. By some miracle PAC chairman got promoted to Chief of the Air Staff. The moment the news reached him, at this point he wasn’t even appointed. He called me and said remember what you used to say, I said yes. He told me as soon as your tenure as a base commander is completed, you will be appointed as CPD. As soon as my tenure was over, I was appointed as CPD for super 7. Since the last CPD never believed in this project we faced a huge set back. The Chinese also found this out and were very resentful and rightfully so. The project was almost dead when I was appointed. I knew Chinese are very delicate people. They respect culture, relationship, friendships a lot. Since I had a very very good relationship with them during my time as DCPD, The first thing I did was to call a meeting to clear all the bad air. Again the Chinese treated us like brothers. We cleared the air and they were very happy that now I was CPD. Now we all started working very hard and made it our goal to roll out a working prototype in 3 years. At this time remember we are talking about super 7. We were still keeping our reference as f-7. This was the turning point, this Is what got me thinking why are we keeping f-7 as a reference? Our reference should be F-16 (I was a f-16 pilot). This was a huge Turning point. During our project management review after every 3 months, the Chinese used to complain to me about how I have a new requirement in every review, which was making it hard to freeze a design. To be honest we had a lot of fights because of this. But they understood that it’s our need. The next difficult stage was transfer of technology, remember our goal was to develop our own aircrafts. This was a very delicate matter. I remember the US ambassador at that time used to warn me, Air Marshall we are watching you. They were afraid that we’ll pass out sensitive information form the F-16s we had. I use respond by saying you can lockup everything but not my brain. We faced a lot of critics, people never believed that a jet could be made in 3 years. It takes 10-15 years to develop. They used to say our jets will fall out skies like birds. But we were determined. I used to work with the Chinese very closely like their own. This developed a very strong relationship. All this were producing good results. We use to work day and night. This is around 2002. And we are still super 7. Now we are very near to the development. Now I used to reference like ‘see f-7 has this and this but our plane will have a fly by wire, glass cockpit etc etc which is nothing like f-7’. When all these references were on the table, I slowly convinced them that this all should be part of our plane because this is the future. It was very hard to convince them. This was all a big jump from which was first decided (f-7). Around the end of 02 and start of 03, I made a decision that the name super 7 should be completely removed from this project because this is causing a huge misunderstanding because they (Chinese) were keeping F-7 as a reference and us F-16. So we scrapped the name super 7. I suggest the name F-17 because f16 was present so was f18. This was somewhere in the middle. We knew it will be better tha f16. When we suggested the name F-17, I also explained them that from now on F-16 would be our base reference but we will go beyond f-16. They agreed. After a week they came back and suggested to put a J in their too for Joint since we both were involved and I very happily accepted. I was very happy our friends and us had both put our blood and sweat into it “J” deserved to be there. Hence a JF-17 was born. During these talks they told me since F-16 is called Falcon, we should also have a nickname. I discussed with my team and came up with “Thunder”. The Chinese accepted it. Now we have a JF-17 Thunder. A lot of things were streamlined. Now we all were keeping F-16 as reference. We were able to achieve a lot. Some things even better than f-16. After Prototypes were tested, we proceeded towards Block-1. Now as I mentioned before, Transfer of technology was the most delicate matter. No one wants to share their technology with others. It was our Brainware we were proud of it, we exposed the Chinese to western technology through our bainware but the hardware was all china. Negotiations began, during this time we were also offered J-10 to buy, after assessment we rejected it. We have a understanding that JF-17 is better than J-10. J-10 has its advantages it is a bigger plane can carry more load and many more advantages. But it was not for us, it did not meet our requirements. JF-17 was designed by us as per our requirements and we choose JF17 and rejected J10. We said and negotiated that China will get 42% production and Pakistan 58%. We were partners but the Chinese were lead partners. It was hard negotiations to make a lead partner take less percentage. At the end of the day the Chinese agreed. 100% of the Avionics Technology was transferred, which helped as integrate weapons of our own. We used a universal software so we can integrate the latest equipment in the future like nav systems, radar, threat warning system, targeting pods etc. This is how JF-17 come to being. We cannot be more proud. We learned a lot, gained a lot of experience. This has allowed us to take steps to develop our own 5th gen Aircraft. Project Azm is well underway and if all goes well in next 10-15 years we will roll out our own 5th gen fighter developed completely build and developed by Pakistan. In very near future jf-17 Block III will rollout. which will sure be better than f-16s Sources: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_EYJpaZ8uM&t=283s

Also is there any information regarding if jf17 can carry and use 2 CM-400AKG at the same time? I remember reading somewhere that It can carry up to 2 CM-400 but it is not possible to carry 2 in operational conditions because it cases weight balancing issues if 1 CM400 is fired and another is still on the pylon. ^^ It's Probably bogus since no source of information was given. It was just claimed by the person himself that he knows.

What is the max alt for CM-400AKG? DCS has 328,000ft of modeled alt, after that missiles just disappear.

Much Appreciated

This is kind of stupid question, but does anyone know where are speed brakes located on thunder? I was not yet seen a picture or video of the thunder with its airbrakes deployed. Share the picture too if anyone has it.

The Fact that he keeps referring to Pakistan Defense as PAF official twitter (When they themselves don't) pretty much says everything. https://www.facebook.com/pakistanidefence/ https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/content-disclaimer-2018.585969/

Yes I have read the thread, the only sources you shared are: 1) Wxn 2) Pakistan defense None of these represent PAF, but you have claimed that it’s on official PAF website. So please share the source. Now the 2 sources you shared, none of them verifies your claim that sd-10 were recently (2019) delivered to Pakistan. Wxn shares the pilot interview in which he said that the worst part of jf17 is limited BVR loadout. What does he mean by that? Well the whole interview of the pilot was basically based on F16 vs Jf17, the only logical explanation for limited BVR loadout refers to how Jf-17 can only carry (2) SD-10 BVR missiles (dual rack is yet not confirmed by PAF or any other sources) meanwhile F16 can carry up to (6) AIM-120 AMRAAM variants and AIM-7 sparrows in a BVR load out. When exactly SD-10 did became active service no one knows because PAF never disclosed this information. But what we know from the information we have is gives us the timeline that they were active service in 2015 the least. 2015 is when the documentary by PAF came out which claims “It carries…” not “It will carry…” . In 2015 Jf17 got international attention during Paris air show and since then where ever jf17 goes, sd-10 is a part of the package shown by PAF. Now according to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute Arms Trade database: http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/trade_register.php 600 SD-10 were ordered by PAF in 2006, the delivery started in 2010 and In 2018 425 out of 600 were delivered to Pakistan. Anyone can check the database. Just to be sure how accurate the database is, I checked it against the deals I was sure about, example: 1) Aselpods ordered by Pakistan 8 in 2016 for $25M 16 in 2017 for the same price $25M https://quwa.org/2017/05/30/pakistan-reportedly-orders-aselpod-targeting-pods-jf-17/ https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/aselsan-signs-a-new-export-contract-for-aselpod-3125 2) 2018 deal for MILGEM class frigate for Pakistan: 4 frigates out of which 2 will be build in turkey and 2 in Pakistan https://quwa.org/2019/09/29/steel-cut-for-pakistans-first-milgem-corvette/ https://www.dawn.com/news/1508373 P.S Dawn is one of the largest news cooperation in Pakistan All these information checks out in the database. These are my sources and why I believe that Pakistan had sd10 active service at least in 2015. Now you said you have official PAF website source for backing your claims, so please share it and Everyone's claim and sources will be irrelevant against PAF official statement. Otherwise there is no point in continuing this topic. It’s just your words against numerous sources saying otherwise

Can you please share the link of PAF website that provided you with this info? In case you are referring to Pakistan Defense / defense.pk page/website then let me assure you It is not is any way linked to Pakistan armed forces. It is a privately owed website and forum that shares defense news. You can find that on there FB page. here is a documentary released in 2015 before paris air show. same video on OFFICIAL PAF website: http://paf.gov.pk/#/videos Pakistan Air Force media wing recently created a YouTube page same documentary is available there: At 10:00 it describes the weapons they carry on missions. "On a typical air defense mission it's wing carry PL-5EII and SD-10 BVR.."

Here is a word to word translation of the pilots speech. If you want I can translate DCAS (operations) speech too from this ceremony where he gave footage of the missles from ground attack. Noman ali khan: shot down mig Hassan mehmood Siddique: su30 Host: Noman we would like to ask you, the whole nation wants to know. On 27th feb when you were in the cockpit and you saw enemy planes on your radar, after that what was on your mind. Noman: With the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the Very-Merciful. How the enemy in the cover of dark cowardly attacked, and how they missed their targets and ran in haste and their formations fell apart and how the next day they were not able to defend their airspace, This questions enemy’s air force capability, and will remain a question until the end of times. What was their planning on 26feb, and what we did on 27th feb, there was a big difference. They came in the cover of dark, missed their targets, and ran in haste. As a response what we did was, we went, and we destroyed out intended targets. And then we stood there to challenge their Air Defences, See we are here come and see what is Pakistan air force. Alhamdulillah (thank god) we told them what pakistani nation and Pakistan air force is. Believe me at that time how my formation was with me reminded me of one of the Iqbal’s poem: “To swoop, withdraw and swoop again Is only a pretext to keep up the heat of the blood” my formation was acting just like it, swooping. Withdrawing and swooping again. But the rules were restricting us when to shoot them down. As soon as one of there formation crossed the LOC (line of control), believe me there wasn’t a blink of an eye delay in that aircraft crossing and me firing my missle. Host: Glory be to God. We pray that your formations keep swooping. Withdrawing and swooping. Hassan I would like to know that this formation was led by noman and you were a part of it. The nation wants to know when you engaged the enemy what was your feelings as a young energetic pilot. Hassan: While answering this question of yours I can recall M.M Alam’s Interview on a similar question he said, All feelings are left behind when we enter the warzone. I was the same. All that was in my mind, was My Enemy, My Country’s Integrity, and my nation’s dignity. So whenever any enemy looks with evil eye towards My Country’s Integrity, and my nation’s dignity will face the same consequences as those two fighters. If ever again someone looks with an evil eye, the extend of damage we will do will be unmeasurable. Host: Look closely these are the type of fighters we have. Noman: When we talk about air force and modern air force employment, You can’t leave it on chance, you cant just hope in a plane and attack your enemy. It needs a great deal of planning. The enemy’s basic mistake was: He had no Idea of its weaknesses nor did he knew about our strengths. They made a basic mistake and challenged the wrong nation. Believe me Pakistan air force was pride of the nation, it today is and will always remain. After that the host asks hassan for a message for youngsters of Pakistan.

One of the reasons I do not believe in the picture that shows it will kill marks is because we have seen how PAF does there kill marks on JF17 that shot down Iranian Drone. There is a plane outline and the date of the kill. Both pictures with su30 and mig 21 have no kill dates and most importantly there are no nose numbers on both planes. EVERY jf17 contains last 3 digits of tail number on the nose Since no nose or tails numbers are shown there is no way of verifying. Here a JF17 that shotdown f35 that we never knew about. (was able to do it in less than 10min)

Thanks for starting it. I can my whole story. So after 27th when the planes were shot down, an army representative told that no f16s were used. So the only possible explanation was that the jf 17shot down both the aircrafts. That's what I believed. But in the ceremony the interviews of the pilots who shot down the plane were from f16 squadrons(the pilot who shot down mig was wearing 29 aggressors patch) and as far as I know pilots from a certain squadrons don't hope in and out of planes from another squadron i.e F16 pilots wont just sit and fly jf17 just because it was made to replace them. It requires great amount of training to jump from one plane to another, An airforce will only spend that time to train pilots for another aircraft if they have confirmed that a squadron will be replaced with new aircrafts. 29 aggressor operates f16 MLU and there are no plans of replacing them with jf17. currently Pakistan is only planning on replacing mirage fleets with jf17 first. Here is a clean HQ screenshot from the ceremony (patches): Now when DCAS(opreations) was asked point blank (in the award ceremony) that "Sir there is a question, there (in india) was a propaganda that f 16 shot down the planes. so please tell us if it was f16 jf17 mirage what was it". DCAS replied(rough translation) "It is not a good thing(to praise ourselves), but when we have slapped someone, whether I used my left hand or my right, is irrelevant. Now why I am keen on saying they were f16s that show down the plane is because there is a monument build at PAF mushaf. Here it is. with all that said, if someone knows that this is all wrong or whatever please share your source .I am more than happy to change my mind. Not here for argument. I go with facts. I know For a fact that we shot down mig 21. su 30 is a claim. and I do believe the claim that we shot down su30. If there is ever a proof then i'll know it for a Fact. non the less I believe the claim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbab8_AsyXc&t=4004s Event hosted by our Air Force to honour all involved personnel in the operation. The pilots who shot down the planes were interviewed. 1:07:19, The patch (29 sq Agressors and there motto "Licensed to kill") is clearly visible on the pilot who shot down mig 21. 29sq operates f16 MLUs

Well if deka doesn't, I'll be designing this livery the day they release texture template for the thunder. Cant wait for this bird

https://fighterjetsworld.com/air/pakistan-air-force-made-operation-swift-retort-memorial-at-paf-base-mushaf/17968/ https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/operation-swift-retort-memorial-at-paf-base-sargodha.635331/

So as the title says, Will the JTAC feature be supported or planned to be added ?