dive angles and distances

Bouncing around in the ground turbulence layer and writing notes is part of my job. It's an advanced form of cryptography, I tell you!

Hey,

i've got a related question: whats the point of CCIP dive bomb runs, you'll loose hight, expose yourself to AAA and MANPADs, the aiming depends on your personal flying skill and aperntly (judging from this thread), they are rather hard to set up and execute properly. I just can't see the advantage over CCRP level deliveries.... Can someone enlighten me please?

For dumb bombs, to my mind the CCIP is easier and more accurate, you can see the bomb pipper tracking towards the target and get an idea for whats going on. For CCRP you have to fly just as accurately, probably more so as you are level at an altitude not actually getting closer to the target. Also I find it quite easy to get the two vertical lines confused and start turning the wrong way.

I should think the aircraft is easier to defend in a dive than flying straight and level as well, and better view of ground threats.

In summary I much prefer CCIP!

I should think the aircraft is easier to defend in a dive than flying straight and level as well, and better view of ground threats.

If your dive takes you below 12 000ft you're toast. Remember - you're flying a tortoise.

Hey,

i've got a related question: whats the point of CCIP dive bomb runs, you'll loose hight, expose yourself to AAA and MANPADs, the aiming depends on your personal flying skill and aperntly (judging from this thread), they are rather hard to set up and execute properly. I just can't see the advantage over CCRP level deliveries.... Can someone enlighten me please?

CCIP deliveries are considerably more accurate than CCRP deliveries, there is a reason they are still the preferred method of delivering unguided munitions even today. EVERY manoeuvre you perform heavily depends on your personal flying skill, level of training and mission planning there are no exceptions. Like everything, the various attack profiles are only hard to execute if you don't understand them and haven't practised them.

A HARB delivery (what you refer to a CCRP level delivery, there are other way to use CCRP) is a perfectly valid delivery method just like every other. Which one you use, depends on the target, threats, weapon, desired effects etc etc.

If your dive takes you below 12 000ft you're toast. Remember - you're flying a tortoise.

Just not true, I'm afraid mate. You don't simply explode as soon as you drop below a certain altitude. And 400+KIAS is far from a tortoise. :smilewink: It's all about planning, preparation and selecting the right attack profile for the target. I honestly can't remember the last time I was shot down by any AAA system or MANPADS in an actual mission. It's all about training and mission planning.

You don't simply explode as soon as you drop below a certain altitude.

I'm fairly certain you do at 0 AGL. :megalol:

I'm fairly certain you do at 0 AGL. :megalol:

Well, that all depends on the speed at which you reach 0ft AGL now doesn't it. ;)

....Just not true, I'm afraid mate....

Missions are just too easy then :P

In a conventional war as is reenacted in numerous scenarios In-SIM, adequate representation of SAM/Unit defence batteries are severely lacking. If they were present as in RL, the A10 would be little more than a target drone.....And yeah, 400KIAS vs Pantsir-1 is a tortoise no matter how you cut it.

Missions are just too easy then :P

You are free to join us for a mission and see how easy they are for yourself ;). If it's planned properly it SHOULD be 'easy', even an SA-15 sat a few NM from the target is of little consequence, if the flight is planned accordingly. And ANY speed obtainable by ANY combat aircraft is no protection against a modern SAM system if you trespass into their NEZ, it's your own fault.

But in all seriousness one of the main issues with the majority of publicly released missions and missions on public MP servers is lack of a good briefing with the necessary intel to effectively plan and execute the mission. There is no reason for you to find yourself in the WEZ of a known air defence system, and in modern warfare all but the smallest and most mobile systems will be known. The presence of AAA and MANPADS should be treated as a given unless intel expressly states otherwise, any formed military force WILL have them.

But that said, there is no reason to drop into the NEZ of MANPADS even with a Dive Bomb attack, again it's where training, planning and understanding of the DSMS profile settings come in.

[...] and understanding of the DSMS profile settings come in.

Sorry, this needs explanation for me...

All I set in the DSMS profiles is usually how many bombs I drop with 1 ripple/hold ripple. Or if autolaze is on etc. I know there is desired time of flight etc. but I never had to use it really. :-/

I can attest to Eddie's mastery of the profile page... He is a true champion of such thorough planning.

Eddie, perhaps a YouTube tutorial (time permitting) is in order for us slightly more stick and rudder kinda guys

Hey,

i've got a related question: whats the point of CCIP dive bomb runs, you'll loose hight, expose yourself to AAA and MANPADs, the aiming depends on your personal flying skill and aperntly (judging from this thread), they are rather hard to set up and execute properly. I just can't see the advantage over CCRP level deliveries.... Can someone enlighten me please?

I feel it just depends on the situation. I also feel that ccip hits a little closer to where i try to put it. Could be me tho. My thing is i start the dive too early most of the time and it feels like a slow curve downwards then all of a sudden its time to go 30 down. Guess ill use that triangle calculator to come up with some basic idea at different alts. But as another post mentioned your will want to be diving behind the target because of your piper . Was more food for thought but in the end i need to quit running straight in. Not such a issue if you line up like the picture earlier showed.

I can attest to Eddie's mastery of the profile page... He is a true champion of such thorough planning.

 

Eddie, perhaps a YouTube tutorial (time permitting) is in order for us slightly more stick and rudder kinda guys

Not something I could really do in a video as the profile side of things is directly linked into the weapon delivery method etc. I am considering putting together a powerpoint for 25th MQT though, just have to finnish the 3 other powerpoint based lessons I've got in progress.

It's safe to say that putting the stuff in my head onto paper (or powerpoint) is not a strength of mine. I'd much rather just take someone up in the sim and teach stuff 'in pit'.

Not something I could really do in a video as the profile side of things is directly linked into the weapon delivery method etc. I am considering putting together a powerpoint for 25th MQT though, just have to finnish the 3 other powerpoint based lessons I've got in progress.

 

It's safe to say that putting the stuff in my head onto paper (or powerpoint) is not a strength of mine. I'd much rather just take someone up in the sim and teach stuff 'in pit'.

Where can I fly with you?

The table you want is at SimHQ article CCIP BOMBING IN LOMAC by the great ANDY BUSH. It's on page 11 , but it's not legible for scan quality. According to Capt. bush, if you hit these dive angles and speeds with published aim off distances, and set your TVV fixed on the AOP, and let the CCIP Reticle walk to the target, you'll nail it every time.

Further, a member of 476th VFG has developed a closed application for delivery planning, so you have to join 476th to be able to use it...

I'm currently trying the first raw of the table, and I will post a video if I nail it correctly..

Hey,

i've got a related question: whats the point of CCIP dive bomb runs

I suppose I've got an answer and a question. Not terribly experienced with this sim, but I am a math nerd. It seems to me that just in terms of physics, dive bombing will give you, kinetically, a more accurate projectile (assuming you release on target. Releasing weapons in a dive would give them a greater speed towards target, not to mention a shorter distance to travel, so time of fall would be smaller, and there'd be less time for the weapon to drift off target from drag/wind/what have you.

Then again, this is just the vague musing of a guy who doesn't know all that much in terms of physics. To you guys who are more experienced, is this an actual advantage for CCIP/dive bombing?

I think the CCRP is more accurate, cause you can stay in a stable position at high altitude, your target is precisely locked by a SPI, if you miss it will be by 30 meters approx~ and you're less under pressure. Also, it depends of your sight, if you choose the 3/9 or 5 mil constent release mode.

Dive bombing/CCIP solutions are dangerous, because you need an attack dive so you're exposed, and since you know you're exposed and the ground is coming closer and closer, you can be a bit stressed and make some mistakes, as moving the aircraft, lost your reference point,... or simply be shot down :cry:

It can be precise, with a LOT of training and experience...

About the ToF, it depends of you, if you have a precise timing given by the JTAC, it's up to you to calculate what do you need, programming a CCRP is the best solution, set your target as waypoint with a DTOT then you have your desired speed to come there at time, calculate what will be your DTOF, with that you can't fight the clock and be efficient about hit a target at a desired time.

Of course, if you think about dropping unguided bomb at high altitude, you have to check the wind (everybody! briefing in 5 minutes!!:ranting:), but IRL (I can be wrong), I mean in documentary and stuff, I see a lot of guided bombs (GBU12 and 38 being used).

I suck with math and physics (would be proud to learn) but about the speed, if you drop a bomb at high altitude, there's less drag, so it drops faster, coming close to ground, it slows down. At low altitude, the bomb can hit the ground before reaching its maximum speed cause the air density will be the same at a given altitude, whatever the speed of the aircraft releasing it.

I know I sound weird :D

Conclusion :

-try to use guided bombs when you can

-CCRP offering a stable and safer solution

-reducing the TOF can be done by CCRP too

PS : I think you can also set the desired time of fall in CCIP mode, I'm doubting. Waiting for correction.

Snip.

No.

The VAST majority of all free fall munition deliveries are performed with CCIP aiming for a multitude of reasons, from accuracy to the fact that diving deliveries are more often than not actually safer than sitting straight and level, fat, dumb and happy at 20,000 ft MSL.

This subject has been discussed to death and many explanations have been given by myself and others. For example, on the point of accuracy: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1431431&postcount=19

I suppose I've got an answer and a question. Not terribly experienced with this sim, but I am a math nerd. It seems to me that just in terms of physics, dive bombing will give you, kinetically, a more accurate projectile (assuming you release on target. Releasing weapons in a dive would give them a greater speed towards target, not to mention a shorter distance to travel, so time of fall would be smaller, and there'd be less time for the weapon to drift off target from drag/wind/what have you.

 

Then again, this is just the vague musing of a guy who doesn't know all that much in terms of physics. To you guys who are more experienced, is this an actual advantage for CCIP/dive bombing?

You understand more than you give yourself credit for. One of the advantages of dive deliveries is much greater accuracy due to a steeper trajectory and shorter ToF.

One note of caution, CCIP and CCRP are aiming methods, they are not different delivery methods. There is nothing physically preventing you using CCRP for an HADB delivery, for example. It's just there is no real reason to use it.

Eddie you're exactly the person I was waiting for... :)

Yeah, figuring out the triangles is a nice start, but it's not the whole picture. It's not accurate to laugh and say that all you need is the Pythagorean theorem and SOHCAHTOA...

Do either of those things describe the ballistic path of the weapon? Do they tell you the release altitude? Do they tell you the Bomb Trail length? The Aim-Off Distance? The Track altitude? The Base altitude? The altitude lost during dive recovery?

These data points are required in order to describe a series of triangle's spatial relationship with the target, and it's far from trivial.

As they taught it in the Navy. Oscar/Had A/Hard On/Always Sin, Cos Tan :music_whistling:

One note of caution, CCIP and CCRP are aiming methods, they are not different delivery methods. There is nothing physically preventing you using CCRP for an HADB delivery, for example. It's just there is no real reason to use it.

Well I'm glad I'm not totally off the mark. So the correct terms to use would be: HADB for dropping from relatively straight/level at high altitude, and dive bombing for... dive bombing?

HADB is High Altitude Dive Bomb, exactly the same as DB just with higher base, track, release and min altitudes. Min Alt for HADB is 4500ft AGL or above, whereas min alt for DB is 1000ft AGL/the ground.

You then have LAHD (low angle high drag), LALD (low angle low drag), HARB (high altitude release bomb) with a 10000ft min alt. Each one of those delivery methods could be called "dive bombing".

A level delivery would be either a Low Altitude Toss (LAT) or a Medium Altitude Toss (MAT). But a LAT/MAT is not necessarily a level delivery.

Bomb range... Still doing my thing... RESERVED..