DCS P-51D QUESTIONS

There've been multiple documented instances of real-life fighters missing half a wing and landing otherwise intact, from the Second World War to the modern day. I can think of a P-38, P-47, F/A-18, and F-15 off the top of my head, and I might've also seen an F4U and/or an F6F as well. It's surprising, but most of the wing area is devoted to "extra" lift (e.g. that which is required for high-G turns), rather than simply keeping the aircraft aloft. Rather little wing is needed to merely stay flying.

 

The big challenge with half a wing missing is dealing with the differential lift (particularly during landing), but it's doable in real life. Because of the engine's torque, it would be easier with the wing removed on one side than the other, but during landing, power should be low anyhow. However, a go-around probably won't be possible once the speed has fallen to a certain figure, at least not with a prop fighter. Jet fighters, probably, what with the huge lifting body, ridiculous excess thrust, and lack of torque.

You must not forget Skyraider in Duxford that killed P-51 and landed safely with 1/3 of the wing ripped off.

Hello! I'm new to the DCS. I bought the P-51D in December. I don't know if those questions weren't asked before, but I didn't see them. So I am very sorry if they were answered.

 

To buisness:

1. Why is the pilot so strong? You can rip your wings in a dive by pulling half of the stick. I though there would be some force representation and control stiffening at high speeds modeled in the game that is a sim?

2. Why is the compressibility portrayed in a way that you loose all your control surfaces instead of lost of control?

3. Is the damage model going to be reworked? The P-51 seems to be made out of napalm, and every damage is portrayed as if the plane was hit with a thermobaric wepon. Even places that have nothing to do with flames (wing tips) if shot off or just damaged during a landing are burning like a hay stack.

 

When I am damaged the plane doesn't feel too different. I was once hit by a Fw190 to my right wing and didn't even notice it before I killed him and checked my plane...Also, P-51 seems to fly quite ok with half of a wing missing...:joystick:

 

Before somebody asks, my settings are on full-real and I don't even have "landing assist" on.

1. Because in Mustang there is no problem to pull the stick for overcome G-limit AT ANY IAS you can create sufficient lift to create enough G's. It's a fact that force gradient per 1g being very pleasant at low at moderate g's became NEGATIVE for high g maneuvers. It means that after you pull certain g the stick force stops to rise and then begins diminish as you pull. Up to zero. THis effect is especially noticable with aft CG.

2. Do not mix excessive dynamic pressure and Mach effects (compressibility). Compressibility effect is noticable during a steep diving from the high altitude (more than 30000 ft). You can see trim changes, violent buffeting, increased stick travel to create certain g. Excessive dynamic pressure or max IAS causes structural damages, especially control surfaces.

3. Yes, visual model now must be reworked. Anyway, massive structural damage can cuse the fire because not only hundreds litres of petrol get free but electric wires catch short circuit. You have fuel and you have strong arcs.

1. OK thanks. I knew that the mustang had good control at high speed... but never thought that much.

2. I reached over 505mph at 5000ft in a dive and my control surfaces just blew up. Maybe a bug? I don't have much time for testing, just a quick flight and saw it so I wanted to ask. Thx. I was using this as a reference. http://books.google.pl/books?id=SfwqCTY9I6MC&printsec=frontcover&dq=p51+manual&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=UvPWUtDIDOTW7Qa4sYAQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=compressibility&f=false

3. Yeah, I hope that in final DCS WW2 it won't be there. It kills the immersion and degrades the graphic style to the level of arcade shooter...even though the sim is amazing. :pilotfly:

 

Thank you for the answers. Keep up the good work.:thumbup:

You will not lose any part of the plane keeping IAS lower than red tick, watch it careful.

 

The manual states that I should try to keep it steady during the uncontroled dive... maybe I have pulled on the stick and that is why I lost my control surfaces?:cry: But how was I strong enough to fight with the air?:joystick:

You need gentle hands, you dont have the same feedback through the stick that the P-51 pilot has, not to mention a much shorter stick (no offence intended :) ).

What I mean is, I was flummoxed as I never read about loosing control surfaces in compresibility:book:, the manual for P-51D states:

 

"When you get above 5000ft in the P-51, the maximum safe IAS is 505 IAS, red line of the airplane. Above that altitude you go into compressibility"

 

The manual states that I should try to keep it steady during the uncontroled dive... maybe I have pulled on the stick and that is why I lost my control surfaces?:cry: But how was I strong enough to fight with the air?:joystick:

 

I don't know... well thanks anyway, I'll just try change my sensitivity on the elevator (i'm flying all over the place:lol:)

 

Again, thx.:)

You keep mixing COMPRESSIBILITY that is a matter of TAS with DYNAMIC PRESSURE or IAS. At 40000 + you will get COMPRESSIBILITY effects even at IAS (that your gauge shows to you) significantly less than 505 mph. And vice versa - the structural damages that occur above 505 mph IAS (generally at low altitude) are not because of COMPRESSIBILITY effect but only because of DYNAMIC PRESSURE that causes forces more than airframe can bear.

If you take a look at any contemporary plane restrictions you will find that any aircraft has two limits - IAS limit and M-limit. If the jet plane is cruising at 33000-39000 its IAS is relatively low but TAS that is a base to Mach number calculation is close to the limit.

I am just quoting what the P-51D manual is saying. It is not my own opinion. I am not trying to argue. I don't have the knowledge to do so. Maybe I was too fast and droped below 5000ft and that is why my controls fell of. I don't realy know. I would have to read about it more :book:(studies are priority though)

 

I think you misinterprete the manual statement, because it states exactly the same I wrote above - that at low altitude red tick marks safe IAS or airflow loads for the airframe, and then it states that at higher altitudes this tick DOES NOT MEAN safe spead BECAUSE OF COMPRESSIBILITY. You can get nose tuck, buffeting, "rubber stick" when you are deeply inside the "safe" IAS range when you are at high altitude.

In all fairness, I think the instant destruction of control surfaces the moment you exceed 505 is a little off. Especially if you aren't applying any stick pressure. Maybe the combat pilots were incorrect but I've read plenty of after action reports where p-51 pilots described dives of well over redline IAS with no disastrous results. Interestingly, I recall them describing how they watched 109s rip apart in front of them. There is room for improvement. If you read about the war time max dive testing they describe lots of airframe shaking. I don't think we experience this at all with the DCS P-51D in a dive...things just start detaching from the a/c once you go "too fast."

That might be a short coming of the current damage model too, which they have said needs to be redone, perhaps there are no variables built into it, and it is a absolute when certain speeds are hit...

That might be a short coming of the current damage model too, which they have said needs to be redone, perhaps there are no variables built into it, and it is a absolute when certain speeds are hit...

Remember the accident in Rhino where special redesigned for high IAS aircraft lost its trim tab at 500 mph. By the way, actually you must get signifcantly beyond the speed limit to damage the plane n DCS.

Seems like you move slightly past the red line and control surfaces eject from the aircraft everytime. There isnt any variables coded into the damage model is there, that might let you get out of running the aircraft over its limits without damage, or maybe not as much, is there?

Seems like you move slightly past the red line and control surfaces eject from the aircraft everytime. There isnt any variables coded into the damage model is there, that might let you get out of running the aircraft over its limits without damage, or maybe not as much, is there?

Probably. Do not tempt your fate gettng beyond red lne too much and for long time. Dynamic pressre cases flutter...

Probably. Do not tempt your fate gettng beyond red lne too much and for long time. Dynamic pressre cases flutter...

I think that is what was meant though, there is no real forgiveness there, soon as you break that line you break your plane, no maybe about it, as said above, pilots had thought they pushed the planes over the limits in some cases and lived (along with their plane) to tell about it. Of course I know that adrenaline can skew some reports to, and I had to put the plane in a pretty nasty dive to test it out anyways :)

Edit: Although, I guess in all fairness as well, the red mark is over the recommended maximum speed isnt it, so we probably deserve everything we get taking her that fast :)

As Yo-yo said, you have to be significantly over that line and that line is there for a reason.

 

In real life you'd s*** bricks doing over 500mph in a mustang. I fly a cessna 152 occasionally and breaking 120 knots feels dangerous in that!

Oh I have no doubt about that, I was only talking about whether or not the damage had any randomness built into it, maybe things break slightly earlier, maybe slightly later...

Yeah, probably not any randomness built in, but I'm happy that the plane only breaks apart above VNE! I guess if you find exactly the speed that it happens, you could exploit it to your advantage slightly though.

Yeah, not sure, she feels pretty useless in a 500mph dive :)