Black Shark 2 and A-10C

[Wizard1393]

Hello all,

 

I just needed to write off a bit. I started playing DCS World a few weeks back and learned to fly the SU-25T. I felt it was just about the right amount of difficulty on Sim-mode. Game-Mode was too easy. What made learning much easier was the INTERACTIVE training lessons with the SU-25T.

 

Now seeing as there was a deal on steam for severals DCS DLC's yesterday I decided to buy Black Shark 2 and A10-C.

 

Now, I though that the SU-25T had a good level of difficulty. I've now hit a brick wall.

Flying about in the KA-50 in game mode felt somehow too easy with all of the auto-locking and "cheaty" invasive unit icons, but the SIM-mode is just downright outrageous.

 

How does one go about learning to fly this thing in a good way? The included NON-INTERACTIVE, LOW-RESOLUTION pieces of unadequate crap videos are just not going to happen. There's also very few good tutorial videos on youtube to find.

I'm one of those guys that's just never ever going to do a full manual system startup on this thing. But I want a bit more of a challenge than game-mode gives.

 

I feel very discouraged now to continue with this.

Thoughts, opinions and helpful comments and tips is greatly appreciated!

 

/Chris

[Cnuke]

Hello, try this:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84612

 

Maybe you could use the search function here or on the web. You can find things more easily. Also, check the user download section on the main DCS website. There is also a DCS wiki.

 

But most importantly: Read your manual, as it is there to help you.

Even if you don't understand most of it, you'll remember more and learn faster.

Also you can check it again and again if you have questions.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Cnuke

[159th_Viper]

I feel very discouraged now to continue with this.

 

It takes months to get halfway proficient with either airframe. You bought both modules yesterday so prioritize your expectations.

 

What I would do is the following:

 

Use the Auto-Start, understand what is happening in the Cockpit and engage in free-flights, ie take-off, land, goof around a wee bit. Once you get basic flight out of the way you can start learning the airframe and it's systems properly.

 

Getting together with a Squad or a friendly MP server also helps tremendously.

[Wizard1393]

Thanks for your replies.

 

@159th_Viper: It's hard to get a grip on the DCS Series, in the way how detailed it is.

I now understand the DCS FC3 is NOT as detailed as these modules I've bought.

 

What exactly is the difference between FC3 aircraft and e.g. A-10C DLC aircraft?

Flight model? Fully modeled cockpits with "mouse operation". The sheer amount of controls for the A-10C and the BS2-KA-50 in sim mode are just overwhelming.

 

The Su-25T of DCS world felt like it had about HALF the amount of controls (key-binds).

Is the DCS World Su-25T more like the FC3 craft in "amount of controls" or is the SU-25T more simple just because it's an older aircraft that is less technologically advanced?

[MariuszDW]

My approach to a-10c was something like this:

1. I want to fly right away, but it's overwhelming.

2. No tutorials (to much information and key bindings at once). Just free flight mission ("single missions" for A-10c) with aircraft on the runway, rady to go. No weapons. I just need takeoff, landing speed, flaps, landing gear. Just flying around. Ok, it's easy. Nice, forgiving aircraft. Getting bored, need more.

3. How to fire it up from cold & dark state - interactive lesson or youtube. Ok, got it. I can do it every time whithout help. Fly around as a reward.

4. Shoot stuff. Interactive lessons. Rightful anger against defensless targets.

5. CDU - oh, boy... After months, you still learn something new.

 

KA-50 more less the same (fly around, start it up, shoot), but you need to know from the start about the trimmer and autopilot.

 

Maybe stand-alone Su-25: DCS Flaming Cliffs would be interesting for you. It's older version of the aircart (simpler avionics and weapons), but newer model in the game - beatiful 6DOF cockpit, shadows and it is a bit faster.

[Flagrum]

Thanks for your replies.

 

@159th_Viper: It's hard to get a grip on the DCS Series, in the way how detailed it is.

I now understand the DCS FC3 is NOT as detailed as these modules I've bought.

 

What exactly is the difference between FC3 aircraft and e.g. A-10C DLC aircraft?

Flight model? Fully modeled cockpits with "mouse operation". The sheer amount of controls for the A-10C and the BS2-KA-50 in sim mode are just overwhelming.

 

The Su-25T of DCS world felt like it had about HALF the amount of controls (key-binds).

Is the DCS World Su-25T more like the FC3 craft in "amount of controls" or is the SU-25T more simple just because it's an older aircraft that is less technologically advanced?

FC3 level aircrafts are simplified when it comes to avionics and everything else in the cockpit (and probably under the wings). What you do with one or two key presses would require much more work in the real thing. You would have to use/read your instruments, interprete what is shown there and react to it by using the appropriate other systems. Additionally, aircrafts like the Su-25(T) ARE relatively simple - due to their age and the technology available at that time. "FC3 fidelity" abstracts a good part of the complexity.

 

The Ka-50 and more so the A-10C are modelled 1:1 (yeah, somewhere between 80-99% :o) to the real thing AND they have as such more complex systems on board.

 

What I did (erm, still do) was taking one step after the other. Focus on a system or an aspect at a time until you get at least a basic understanding of what it does and why. The next system then might be already be a bit easier to grasp and slowly the "whole picture" unfolds. Then start over again and deepen your knowlege, again step by step. I did this not by following some sort of checklist or schedule - that would end into being WORK instead of fun. Instead I picked something that I was curious about the most at a given time. Then you experiment with it a bit and automatically come to a point where you want to know more about related systems. Something like "I want to drop bombs!" ... "Ok, there are several types of bombs!" ... "Allright, JDAM ftw!" ... "Hrm, GPS, interesting what one can do with it" ... "GPS? NAV? INS? CDU!" ... etc. :o)

[Bushmanni]

Flying and operating A-10C and Ka-50 actually requires using lot less different key commands than FC3 aircraft as they have clickable cockpits. I find it much more easier to remember what switch does what than to remember keyboard commands. Most of the switches in A-10C and Ka-50 are related to starting the aircraft and after that you don't need to bother with them. What I love with DCS aircrafts is the amount of control they give over the aircraft and its systems. In FC3 you are stuck with basic features but in DCS you can do all kinds of neat things to make things more effectively but the cost is the increased complexity.

 

Methodological approach will save you some time while learning to fly and operate DCS aircrafts but most important thing is to have fun and advance step by step. Learn to fly well enough that you can employ weapons and then start to blow up trucks and other helpless enemies. Then switch to enemies that can shoot back. Get back to flying practice when it seems your weapons employment is suffering from poor control of the aircraft. Finding someone to teach or even ask questions from will help immensely in the beginning. These forums will also have lot's of information about things you will inevitably end up wondering about so learn to use the search.

[Rusty_M]

I found downloading the manuals to an e-reader really helped me learn.

 

These modules can be overwhelming, but they are also very rewarding.

[mjeh]

...Is the DCS World Su-25T more like the FC3 craft in "amount of controls"...

 

Yes, that's precisely it.

 

To give an example, starting engine in DCS A-10C you turn on battery, flip inverter switch, turn on auxiliary power unit, wait for it to spool up while monitoring it's exhaust gas temperatures and whatnot, turn on the APU power generator, flip left and right power generators to on and then while you align your CDU you move the leftmost throttle to the 'on' position and then monitor left engine parameters as it spools up and then ... etc etc etc.

 

In FC3 you press a key on your keyboard and the engine starts.

 

FC3 aircraft are pretty much like the Su-25T in terms of how fiddly and hard they are to operate, in fact some may be a bit easier imo. It's a great product if you like simming but aren't into the switchology of the more hardcore titles.

[Wizard1393]

Thanks for all answers! I actually held out for a few hours tonight with the KA-50 and watched some tutorial about trim and autopilot. Actually managed to get it semi-right, and even managed to employ some Vikhrs and Rockets. Never figured out how to employ the gun.., but I'll hopefully find some tutorial on that too.

[lmp]

Hi Chris,

 

Welcome to the forum! :)

 

You probably did well by starting with the Ka-50. It has a few similarities with the Su-25T and is overall less complex as far as button mashing goes. As long as flying a helicopter isn't too hard for you, and from your last post it looks like you're doing ok, you'll be winning missions in no time.

 

To turn on the gun, press C. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the same in the Su-25T. If you have a target locked on with the Shkval sensor, the gun should automatically aim at it, as long as the target is within the big rectangle that'll appear on your HUD. Then you just wait for the С symbol on the TV display, and you can shoot.

 

Flying and shooting doesn't really require much more button learning than in the Su-25T. Once you get that figured out, you can slowly move onto other systems, like various navigation systems, the datalink etc. One thing at a time and it won't feel so overwhelming.

 

And once you get one aircraft down, the next one will be easier (whether the A-10, one of the other helos, or an FSX Boeing, if that's your thing ;) ).

[Shiwaz]

I though that the SU-25T had a good level of difficulty.

 

Pretty confident that you would LOVE the Flaming Cliffs 3 fidelity then... I know i do... :pilotfly:

 

Good deals to be had on steam for all DCS modules...

[Dutchy93]

Hey chris,

 

I don't know if you've got the startup sequence of the KA-50 down, but here is a vid that I used to get started. It is a bit fast. But if you pause it from time to time to take notes it shows you just what you need to know to get flying.

 

 

And as others have said here: Try to go online and find someone who is willing to teach you.

Yesterday my friend bought the KA-50 and in just 30 minutes or less I walked him through the cockpit and startup sequence. And in around 2 hours of flying in total he knew as much about the KA-50's systems as I did. Only I slightly fly better :D.

 

If others are not available then watch vids on youtube. There are enough video's out there that show you the ins and outs of the planes systems.

Start somewhere simple and add more later.

 

Good luck to you and I'll see you in the skies.

[Wizard1393]

Ah. Thanks for your comments guys! Actually, even though my original post sounded more like a raging rant, the point of this post was getting some encouragement and recommendations from the more experienced pilots like yourselves, hence I posted in the chit-chat forum.

 

Can anyone recommend a group or community that flies together on a semi-casual basis and are open to rookies and teaching them? Somewhere you can just "pop in" to have a session "on the fly" perhaps or somethign similar?

 

Thanks again for all encouragement!

[Reksi-Erkki]

I found BigfootMSR's training missions very helpful with the Shark - have to review them again before jumping into the campaign.

 

EDIT: changed the link to match the one in post #18 - thanks, P*Funk!

Edited February 12, 2014 by Reksi-Erkki

[Wizard1393]

I found BigfootMSR's training missions very helpful with the Shark - have to review them again before jumping into the campaign.

 

 

Great tip, thanks! Didn't know there where in fact USER created INTERACTIVE training missions!

[Isegrim]

Hi

 

I just wanted to say that you should also let us know how your flight equipment looks like (Joystick/Pedals/Headtracking).

[PFunk1606688187]

I found BigfootMSR's training missions very helpful with the Shark - have to review them again before jumping into the campaign.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84612

Better link. Has an all in one package that replaces the crummy default video tutorials with these so you load them via the Tutorial menu in DCS World.

 

Definitely recommend them. Also, for future reference, the A-10C already has interactive training missions whenever you get around to it.

[Wizard1393]

@Isegrim Ok. I use a Thrustmaster T.Flight HOTAS X throttle and stick which I bought like a month ago. The stick is twist action so I use that as anti-torque / rudder. I know it's a bit budget, but so far it seems good enough for me as an entry level HOTAS. My main gripe with it so far is that it only hat one hatswitch, which is on the stick. It would be good with another, and maybe also a scroller on the throttle. But for the most part it's OK. It just means I have to do a bit more on the keyboard.

 

I don't currently have any headtracking hardware, but I'm beginning to understand the seemingly IMMENSE help TrackIR seems to provide. No more fiddly zooming in and out to view buttons and switches in the cockpit and no more having to use the hatswitch to look around. Getting a TrackIR seems almost like a MUST more than "would-be-nice". What are your experiences with TrackIR 5?

 

@P*Funk Awesome man!!!! Effing awesome!! That was my main rage-point, because those videos are so darn low res and the fact the interactive lessons makes you learn faster.

[Isegrim]

Try to get an Headtracking system.

And espacially for Helicopters>> Rudder pedals. If you like.... Pedals from a steering wheel will do the Jop also...if you have some at home.

[lmp]

I've flown the Huey for some time without rudder pedals (instead using a twist grip like Chris) and with decent results. IMHO they're not as super critical as some people say, but they certainly help. And the Ka-50 is less demanding in this respect owing to the coaxial rotor design.

[PFunk1606688187]

I've flown the Huey for some time without rudder pedals (instead using a twist grip like Chris) and with decent results. IMHO they're not as super critical as some people say, but they certainly help. And the Ka-50 is less demanding in this respect owing to the coaxial rotor design.

 

The problem with twist rudder is that you're blending all three control axes into a single input device and this will inevitably lead to incorrect pilot inputs. Can you get by? Absolutely. However I still think it'll limit your total potential capability.

 

Its kind of like Trackir. Can you get by with POV hats? Of course, flight simmers have been without Trackir more than with it in the history if simming, but without it you're basically always distracting yourself with another thing for your hands to do and there's nothing more natural than looking where you want to see.

 

That all said, if it were just fixed wing I would say there's no hurry to get rudder pedals, but with helos I'd say its a much bigger quality of life upgrade by far.

[lmp]

Sure, as I said, rudder pedals certainly help, just like TIR or a high end HOTAS. But all those things are expensive, and I just want to stress you don't need to break the bank to enjoy DCS. Especially when you're just starting out and aren't 100% sure this is a hobby for you.

[kontiuka]

I'm currently playing without TrackIR, HOTAS, or rudder pedals. TrackIR, I'll be getting soon because I'm using my joystick hat as TMS/China Hat/Boat Switch/Air Brake! A little cumbersome but it works ok.

 

The thing with HOTAS is you pretty much have to get rudder pedals first because AFAIK they don't have a twist stick.

 

EDIT: I also like to slew using the keyboard because you can slew diagonally by pressing 2 keys at once.

Edited February 12, 2014 by kontiuka

[Wizard1393]

Good thing with the T.Flight HOTAS X though is that I can lock the twist action and instead there are another fingertip rudder control axis on the throttle, which ought to be nicer to use since it will never interfere with bank / pitch input on the stick, but right now I'm using that throttle axis from zoom in and out and thus I have to use the twist action for rudder controls.

 

It'll be sweet to get the TrackIR though. It'll free up so much fiddling. But I guess you still have to use the keyboard or move your hand to the mouse to interact with the interactive cockpit?

Or can you look at a switch and have TrackIR interpret a wink to flick a switch? ;)

Edited February 12, 2014 by chrisofsweden