Oversteering piece of %'$#/!

[stray cat]

Dont be upset over the topic title, the ka50 module is awesome, however I ran into a few issues and I am not sure if it is me being a newbie or something wrong with the control setup:

 

I can fly a huey in dcs*, so I am not completely new to DCS or copters.

*can land on a moving cargo ship during a rainstorm

 

Why is it oversteering so much? I move my cyclic forward a bit and it instantly nose dives hard and when I let go the helicopter seems to want to spring back into some form of autohover state. I use the same cyclic axis setup as in HUEY and there it gently and precisely wobbles where I want it to be.

 

1. Is the ka50 far more sensitive to cyclic input?

2. Is there some form of autopilot/hover setup by default (mission started with engine running)?

3a. Should I map my tv camera control to my cyclic view button (is that called a coolie hat?), because i find it impossible to grab the mouse in mid flight to cntrol the camera.

 

3b. Is it possible to switch the coolie hat by another key to toggle between cockpit view and tv camera?

 

(Assuming I do not have track IR)

 

4. What are good settings for a thrustmaster TFLIGHT hotas x for cyclic? For huey I use 0 deadzone, 90% saturation and no curve.

[FubarBundy]

1) yes. I'm not sure if its that the cyclic is more sensitive or if its because the Ka-50 is a much more powerful aircraft. I also seem to remember a point where the Hueys' collective was much more sensitive earlier in its development.

2)The Ka has a very clever auto-stabiliation feature. As such, it takes a slightly different approach to the Huey. With the Huey, you are telling it where to go but with the Ka you are telling the autopilot / stabilisation system where you want it to tell the helicopter to go. Because of this, trim becomes very important.

There are some good articles around (I seem to remember a very good one on sim hq), about this but I think it can be summed up like this...

when manouvering, keep the trim button pressed. When the helicopter is moving as you want, let go of the trim button and centre your rudder as this is also trimmed because there isn't one. You should find it much smoother and more precise like this.

(Also, experiment with the 5 big square, blue buttons to your right... these are the stability control channel selectors. The 5th one is "flight director" mode.. having this switched on can make the helicopter feel a little more like the Huey a it will stop the stabilisation system trying to return you to your previous state.)

3) most definatley yes you should! :)

3b) and 4) can't help with these one, sorry :(

Edited March 6, 2014 by FubarBundy
1:30 am, lots of typos!

[Flagrum]

1. I don't know ... never had any problens in this regard, so I never really thought about it, yet. Post a .TRK perhaps (turn on the controls indicator!)?

 

2. Yes! You should make yourself familar with the Autopilot, how dampening works and why and how you use the trimmer.

 

Black Shark and the Trimmer

Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 1

Black Shark – Autopilot: Part 2

 

And don't forget to read up about all this in the manual as well.

 

3a. I never tried that - using the mouse just seems very natural to me. And using the mouse while flying - if you master point 2, point 3a will be much, much easier, too.

 

3b. Hrm? You switch your views with the F-keys (F1=cockpit, F2=external, F3=fly by, etc.)

 

(and assume that your simming experience would improve A LOT if using a head tracker like TIR)

 

4. If that thing is precise enough (I don't know that one), I would go for default settings - no curvature, no dead zones, no saturatin change. But do what works for you.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Flagrum

[stray cat]

Thanks for the answers so far.

 

About the cyclic, I found out the y axis saturation can decompress the range of motion for the stick, means if I increase that a lot, I lose movement range but it allows for more precise control.

 

I was playing around with the autopilot and I am confused about how it works with the trim.

 

From what I get so far, the autpilot buttons are supposed to lock the heli in a desired attitude, but do i need to press the trim for that to kick in?

Never used trim on the huey so I dont even have that mapped. And what is the function of the furthermost right autopilot button? It is called autpilot director control, but pressing it on or off did not have any noticable effect.

 

Also the manual mentions the Hover ON/OFF and pressing that (supposedly on the cyclic stick) did not have an effect either.

 

Summarizing my above questions by numbers:

 

1. What is the autopilot director control button supposed to do?

2. What does the cyclic hover on/off do?

3. Do the autopilot settings need the trim to have effect?

4. Is is possible to switch (per hotkey) the coolie hat to be either mouse look or tv camera? I think it is but I have not been able to set that up

5. If all the autopilot stuff is kicking in, does that mean it will keep all the desired attitude angles on the helicopter when I let go of the stick?

 

4. If that thing is precise enough (I don't know that one), I would go for default settings - no curvature, no dead zones, no saturatin change. But do what works for you.

I have much better control over the helicopter (huey) with a lower range of motion, the whole range being compressed with a lower X-axi saturation than 100. (What is the english word for an adjective containing the word inertia? Inertious?). Edited March 6, 2014 by stray cat

[Flagrum]

Thanks for the answers so far.

 

About the cyclic, I found out the y axis saturation can decompress the range of motion for the stick, means if I increase that a lot, I lose movement range but it allows for more precise control.

Try it again without it when you are familar with the AP.

 

I was playing around with the autopilot and I am confused about how it works with the trim.

The links I posted should give you a good first understanding of how it all works together.

 

From what I get so far, the autpilot buttons are supposed to lock the heli in a desired attitude, but do i need to press the trim for that to kick in?

Yes. With active Hold modes (Bank Hold, Heading Hold, Pitch Hold) the helo tries to, well, hold its attitude - as it was set by you by trimming the helo previously - for the respective hold channels.

Trimming means here to release the Trim button. When you depress the Trim button, you disable the Hold channels temporarily and when your desired new attitude is established you release the Trim button. This attitude in that moment then is held by the AP (within it's authority of 20%).

 

Never used trim on the huey so I dont even have that mapped. And what is the function of the furthermost right autopilot button? It is called autpilot director control, but pressing it on or off did not have any noticable effect.

In short, it disables the Attitude Hold function of the AP while the dampening function is still functional. This is - roughly - equivalent to keeping the Trim button depressed all the time.

The Director Control just shows HUD symbology which instructs you how to steer the helo to archieve the desired attitude.

This can be helpful if you are maneuvering hard (i.e. combat) and don't want to worry that the AP is interfering.

 

Also the manual mentions the Hover ON/OFF and pressing that (supposedly on the cyclic stick) did not have an effect either.

The effect is, the AP tries to hold the helo in a hover over the point on the ground where you trimmed it.

This is NOT "Autohover", this is just "Hover Hold" - i.e. YOU are responsible to get into a (relatively) stable hover first! :o)

 

Summarizing my above questions by numbers:

 

1. What is the autopilot director control button supposed to do?

2. What does the cyclic hover on/off do?

3. Do the autopilot settings need the trim to have effect?

4. Is is possible to switch (per hotkey) the coolie hat to be either mouse look or tv camera? I think it is but I have not been able to set that up

My remarks in blue.

 

And, because I can't say it often enough, also one in red :D: read the articles, I found them really helpful to build an understanding of Trim, AP, etc.

Edited March 6, 2014 by Flagrum

[Paganus]

If all the autopilot functions are on, it will hold alt, course etc, within reason. Try holding the trim button while you fly the aircraft into the profile you want, and then let go of the trimmer button.

 

The auto pilot functions require trim use. You'll find out when you loose main hydro, none of it works.

 

Hover- Pull it into a controlled hover, trim it, then turn on the hover. You will need to trim it again at least 1 more time. If the winds are calm you can make it sit still in the same spot effortlessly.

 

If you want a toggle to change the coolie you'll need to program for it outside the sim. In the sim you could assign a modifier key so that for example if you hold down a button or key the coolie will change purpose as long as you hold the modifier key.

 

Also for somebody not using Track IR, use the snap views. There is a toggle that switches you're view from free to snap. (cockpit panel view toggle) You should find it useful for going head down in the pit.

[zaelu]

Thanks for the answers so far.

 

Summarizing my above questions by numbers:

 

1. What is the autopilot director control button supposed to do?

2. What does the cyclic hover on/off do?

3. Do the autopilot settings need the trim to have effect?

4. Is is possible to switch (per hotkey) the coolie hat to be either mouse look or tv camera? I think it is but I have not been able to set that up

5. If all the autopilot stuff is kicking in, does that mean it will keep all the desired attitude angles on the helicopter when I let go of the stick?

 

To add on the excellent answers you got already:

 

1. Disables the Autopilot Channels for maintaining the desired Heading/Altitude/Pitch/Roll letting only the Dampening functions on the respective channels.

 

meaning that for the enabled channels your commands will be smothered out as much as possible within the 20% control force the AP has. You should read those articles mentioned above to understand also the limitations and traps it has :D

 

2. It puts the heli in hover mode as simple as that. But with conditions. You need to not have more than 5 Km/h TAS... and when I say TAS I mean that moving 5 Km/h forward while descending with equivalent of 5 Km/h... is bad... the resultant speed is square root of 5x5+5x5... a little above 7 Km/h so you will be out of perfect range and the AP will have a hard time returning and keeping the heli on the desired hover spot/alt

 

Also... this function works best with all channels enabled and with Altitude on good hold via collective brake prior to activating the hover mode.

 

3. Yes if you don't refer at the submodes: Route following or Auto descent. Hover mode is "modified" by Trim button... meaning you can change spot of hover by re-trimming on the new spot on which you get by pressing and holding the trim button so the AP "holds his breath until you make up your mind" :D. Also Dampening works without pressing the button. Only flight assist works fully by trim button while you don't have FD (flight director On). That is the "main mode" in which on each press you tell the heli what to do... try to see the trim button as a "DO THIS!" command.

 

4. don't know

 

5. Yes... depending on submodes:

 

A. FD On... NO... just dampening the controls

B. Route following... yes... read the manual on limits

C. Autodescent... Yes but you should not interfere

D. Auto Hover... yes it will try to return if possible... else will fight you and fail.

E. Normal mode... yes... on each press and release of trim button you tell it what to do and it will fight you if you try something radically different :)

[PFunk1606688187]

Never used trim on the huey so I dont even have that mapped.

 

I literally laughed out loud. You are basically not flying the Ka-50 at this point, you're just fighting a losing battle. Note: I laughed at how horrible that experience must be for you.

 

I also laughed at the fact that you haven't even bound the one button you should be pressing more than any other by far.

 

It was a laugh of bitter compassion.

 

Its okay. Things will get better now. :thumbup:

[stray cat]

So I was playing a bit with the autopilot and it appears using trimmers to steer then let go to let the auto pilot hold is the correct way to fly.

 

Also the director switch on is a bit more comfortable for me because the autopilot does not get in the way so much.

 

But I wonder is that the real way to fly a KA50? being on autopilot all the time? Coming from playing the huey everything feels so smoothed out and packed into safety wrappings.

 

I want to go back to my huey and hug it.

Mind, I never flew a real helicopter and the DCS huey was my first real simulation level heli so I am not sure how it translates in real life, but I noticed this:

 

The huey appears to tell you far better when something is wrong. When you enter forward flight, you get that soothing rattling telling you that it is entering forward flight. When you start to vortex, it shakes violently. When it nose dives too hard and you go 140 knots it rattles. When I want to use the rudder in a high speed forward flight, I can feel the air passing my heli keeping it on track. When It takes off you can feel that smooth fat air below it pushing against the ground.

 

Also does the huey really need trimming? From my experience, the faster it flies, the more it keeps its attitude even if I let go of the stick. Example,when flying a high speed turn with banking it can basically keep flying in a circle with letting go of the stick.

 

However in the KA50:

 

-> I fly with avearge speed. It was 250+ knots, but you cant tell that at a certain height and the helicopter does not shake violently. And this stupid IAS lamp is blinking, but I ignore it, because warning lamps are for losers.

Then there is a really awful sound of rotor blades snapping. Looking outside it appears the 2 rotor discs intersected and cut each other by 50%.

 

 

 

I literally laughed out loud. You are basically not flying the Ka-50 at this point, you're just fighting a losing battle. Note: I laughed at how horrible that experience must be for you.

 

I also laughed at the fact that you haven't even bound the one button you should be pressing more than any other by far.

 

It was a laugh of bitter compassion.

 

Its okay. Things will get better now.

 

I think it is because of being used flying the huey, that thing keeps the banking when you fly a turn even if you let go of the stick. Basically the faster a huey flies, the more inertious it is and remains in what ever attitude it was.

[PFunk1606688187]

But I wonder is that the real way to fly a KA50? being on autopilot all the time? Coming from playing the huey everything feels so smoothed out and packed into safety wrappings.

 

Don't be too consumed by the heroic cowboy mentality. You'll miss the value.

 

The Ka-50 was specifically designed to minimize pilot workload to allow him to take on the dual role of being the gunner in this gunship helicopter. The idea is the autopilot fights the airframe, you fight the enemy.

 

 

As for the autopilot channels, I remember reading that real Ka-50 pilots are not permitted to ever fly without at minimum the main 3 channels engaged unless they fail.

[Flagrum]

me=blue

 

So I was playing a bit with the autopilot and it appears using trimmers to steer then let go to let the auto pilot hold is the correct way to fly.

Yes. ...although there are two "schools" of Ka-50 pilots:

a) those who depress trim, maneuver, let go of trim

b) maneuver and constantly trim (depres and immediately release trim)

There are a couple of RL in-cockpit vids on youtube where you see (well, better: hear) how RUS pilots use method b.

Which one is the "correct" method? Some say so others so ... imo, whatever floats your boat (or keeps your helo in the air :o)!

 

Also the director switch on is a bit more comfortable for me because the autopilot does not get in the way so much.

Try to get comfortable to fly without FD first so you really learn what the AP does and when to apply which sub-mode. If you use the AP correctly (i.e. not fighting it constantly) you will see that it really serves a purpose: to assist you so you can free up you mind and can use more of your brain power to gain situal awareness.

 

But I wonder is that the real way to fly a KA50? being on autopilot all the time? Coming from playing the huey everything feels so smoothed out and packed into safety wrappings.

Yes, AP is the way to go usually. As said above, the AP is there for a reason.

 

I want to go back to my huey and hug it.

I completely understand you there. :o) It is just fun to fly her.

 

Mind, I never flew a real helicopter and the DCS huey was my first real simulation level heli so I am not sure how it translates in real life, but I noticed this:

 

The huey appears to tell you far better when something is wrong. When you enter forward flight, you get that soothing rattling telling you that it is entering forward flight. When you start to vortex, it shakes violently. When it nose dives too hard and you go 140 knots it rattles. When I want to use the rudder in a high speed forward flight, I can feel the air passing my heli keeping it on track. When It takes off you can feel that smooth fat air below it pushing against the ground.

 

Also does the huey really need trimming? From my experience, the faster it flies, the more it keeps its attitude even if I let go of the stick. Example,when flying a high speed turn with banking it can basically keep flying in a circle with letting go of the stick.

"Bare metal flying" - great fun. You always see and "feel" what the helo does. It is like riding a motocross bike vs. a Harley (= Ka-50)

 

Trimming is not that necessary - no AP that depends on it, etc. But it does help you here, too: you don't have to hold your cyclic all the time in a specific position. In RL, the hydraulics would keep it in the trimmed position so you would not have to apply any forces to keep it there. You get the most out of this if you were using a FFB joystick as those replicate this behaviour 1:1. Otherwise, you would re-center your stick while the helo would still keep it's attitude.

 

However in the KA50:

 

-> I fly with avearge speed. It was 250+ knots, but you cant tell that at a certain height and the helicopter does not shake violently. And this stupid IAS lamp is blinking, but I ignore it, because warning lamps are for losers.

Then there is a really awful sound of rotor blades snapping. Looking outside it appears the 2 rotor discs intersected and cut each other by 50%.

250 km per hour, not knots (RUS aircraft! :o)

Yeah, those damn blinking lights of the Harley ... :o)

Actually this is a separate topic you have here. It has to do with the coaxial design of the helo: both rotor discs are spinning in different directions. The rotor disc that spins clock-wise generates on the left side of the helo more lift because to the speed of the forward moving rotor blade the forward speed of the helo is added. So, the left side of the disc bends up, the right side bents down.

The counter-clockwise spinning disc everything is turned around: on the right side the blade moves forward and the additional helo air speed causes the right side to bend up and the left side to bend down.

Now we have all in all on the left side blades that bend wider apart the faster you fly, but on the right hand side you have blades that come closer to each other, the faster you fly.

And that is what this warning lamp is good for: it warns you that your air speed is that high that both rotor discs are about to collide. And this will happen with even higher probablility if you now maneuver, i.e. perform turns (left turns ... or was it right turns? can't remember atm ... are more vulnerable)

 

I think it is because of being used flying the huey, that thing keeps the banking when you fly a turn even if you let go of the stick. Basically the faster a huey flies, the more inertious it is and remains in what ever attitude it was.

Motocross bike vs. Harey :o) Both are great .. but are just different.

[ZaltysZ]

There are a couple of RL in-cockpit vids on youtube where you see (well, better: hear) how RUS pilots use method b.

Which one is the "correct" method? Some say so others so ... imo, whatever floats your boat (or keeps your helo in the air :o)!

Correct one is frequent depressing of trim button. It is like a safety measure. Analogy would be a mounter climber which reattaches his ropes every meter or so. If he did that lets say every 15 meters, mistakes could become very painful. However, such trimming is very uncomfortable with non FFB stick as frequent depressing of trim requires frequent recentering.

[Melcar]

And this stupid IAS lamp is blinking, but I ignore it, because warning lamps are for losers.

Then there is a really awful sound of rotor blades snapping. Looking outside it appears the 2 rotor discs intersected and cut each other by 50%.

 

Yeah, that's kinda the worst warning lamp to ignore. It's the "to much fun light".

 

It means you're going to fast and your rotor disks are about to intersect. Which, you found out is exactly what happens.

 

Your max speed in level flight is around 315kph - maneuvers can of course decrease the speed the rotors intersect. So when that light comes on you want to just gently bring the cyclic back until you're having just the right amount of fun.

 

For comparison, Wikipedia says the Max speed of the UH-1 is around 120 knots (220kph)

The Apache 158knots (293kph).

 

Vs the KA-50 170knots (315kph)

 

So your modest speed of 250+ was actually right at the edge of the envelope.

[stray cat]

Correct one is frequent depressing of trim button. It is like a safety measure. Analogy would be a mounter climber which reattaches his ropes every meter or so. If he did that lets say every 15 meters, mistakes could become very painful. However, such trimming is very uncomfortable with non FFB stick as frequent depressing of trim requires frequent recentering.

[/color]

 

By recenter you mean having to let go of the stick? The manual mentions that.

 

Also do I ever need to reset the trim? And is there an indicator like the huey has that shows the cyclic and rudder on the hud? I cant find it in the KA50 control options.

 

 

-------------------------------

Targeting questions

 

 

I was learning how to use the VIKHR ATGM. So far I learned there is 2 ways to acquire targets, using the helmet sight and manually moving the tv camera around.

 

The helmet system is not that comfortable without using TRACKIR, and it does not seem that precise on targets that are far away.

 

So what is the best way to acquire targets that are 6+km away?

 

1. Manually move tv camera and lock

2. Use helmet sight to quickly get roughly near it then adjust the camera manually?

 

I ran into this problem, when using auto turn to target, it does work as intended when pressing uncage/aquire using the helmet, as the heli quickly tries to turn towards it. However when using manual tv camera locking or moving the camera around it softly rotates after the target reticle, but it never seems to get it "exactly". It centers itself slightly away so I have to very carefully use the rudder to get just on target, then either hold it, or press trim and pray it stays on it if I let go of the stick.

 

Here is a screenshot of this

 

 

I think this is off center as the single shot setting on the vikhr alternates left/right. Is that causing it to be not "quite" on target? I swear when I switched to 2 shot salvo setting it was ready to fire but I may imagine things.

 

So is that bug in the game, something as intended on the real ka50 or am I doing this wrong?

 

 

Another issue might be that I expected modern attack helis to simply pop up behind a tree line, instantly lock on to anything metal/vehicle and the pilot just fires off an ATGM. Is that a movie cliche I am falling for?

 

The manual explains ATGM launches on page 11-16:

Weapons Employment in Automatic Mode

ATGM Employment

When approaching the target area, perform the following Shkval adjustments:

1. Use the sensor slew hat on the cyclic and the “РАМКА М – Б” (tracking gate increase – decrease size) switch on the collective to adjust target box position and size.

2. Press the “АВТ ЗАХВ” (Lock target) button on the collective. This will ground stabilize the Shkval sensor line of sight.

3. When the “ТГ” symbol and distance to target appear on the Shkval display, place the target marker over a valid target and press the lock target button a second time. You will then see the “ТА” (auto-tracking target) symbol on the Shkval display and the “ТА-ИД” (auto-tracking target – range indicator) symbol on the HUD. Assuming you have a Vikhr selected as the active weapon, a launch circle indicating target range and Vikhr launch range will be displayed on the HUD.

4. When approaching the target, correct the tracking gate position and size if necessary. To make adjustments, press and hold lock target button while making adjustments.

When approaching the maximum Vikhr launch range, perform the following:

1. Maneuver the helicopter to align it in the horizontal axis with the target. This will best align the Vikhr launchers with the target (align launch circle with target line-of-sight on the HUD), and maintain this heading for at least one second.

2. Adjust tracking gate if necessary.

When the “С” Launch Permission symbol appears on the HUD, perform the following:

What is "automatic" about the targeting? I manually have to move the camera around, lock on, then finely adjust the helicopter heading before firing, which leaves me floating in the air like AA bait for at least half a minute.

 

And how does one quickly attack several targets with the machine cannon? Assuming I want to fly over the area, destroy 4 trucks without hovering around. Manually moving the shkval and locking on targets is near impossible because of the small angle of the cannon and or targets simply being out of range of the camera. I could use the gun forward fixed, but then what is the poing of having the automatic tracking?

(Is there a way to lock the gun in a specific angle without tracking a ground target? For example lock it slightly to the right and down so that it can be used like a fixed door gun of sorts)

 

And last, what is the shkval scanning for? All it did was move left and right, I expected it to lock onto something on its own.

[tsumikae]

By recenter you mean having to let go of the stick? The manual mentions that.

 

I'd say he meant that.

 

Also do I ever need to reset the trim? And is there an indicator like the huey has that shows the cyclic and rudder on the hud? I cant find it in the KA50 control options.

 

There is a trim reset shortcut: Ctrl+T

It is mainly a comfort option for the sim, as it does not exist in the actual KA. My advice would be to use it while you are still learning the trim procedure, and to not use it anymore when you're comfortable enough with the shark. Be careful, though, as it will reset your trim to ground setting. It will pull back hard, in flight.

 

Ctrl-Enter will display the actual input positions of your controls.

-------------------------------

Targeting questions

 

 

I was learning how to use the VIKHR ATGM. So far I learned there is 2 ways to acquire targets, using the helmet sight and manually moving the tv camera around.

 

The helmet system is not that comfortable without using TRACKIR, and it does not seem that precise on targets that are far away.

 

So what is the best way to acquire targets that are 6+km away?

 

1. Manually move tv camera and lock

2. Use helmet sight to quickly get roughly near it then adjust the camera manually?

 

 

 

I ran into this problem, when using auto turn to target, it does work as intended when pressing uncage/aquire using the helmet, as the heli quickly tries to turn towards it. However when using manual tv camera locking or moving the camera around it softly rotates after the target reticle, but it never seems to get it "exactly". It centers itself slightly away so I have to very carefully use the rudder to get just on target, then either hold it, or press trim and pray it stays on it if I let go of the stick.

 

I think this is off center as the single shot setting on the vikhr alternates left/right. Is that causing it to be not "quite" on target? I swear when I switched to 2 shot salvo setting it was ready to fire but I may imagine things.

 

So is that bug in the game, something as intended on the real ka50 or am I doing this wrong?

 

While TRACKIR is definitely a big plus, for targetting purpose you can do without. I don't know if it's the normal procedure, but here's how I do: first approximatively point the SCHVKAL in the right direction via the HMS or manually steer the targetting reticle on my hud. Then switch to the SCHKVAL view, unzoomed. find my target on the screen, steer the reticle on it, zoom, acquire.

 

The fact that the vickhrs reticle is not always aligned with the target while auto-turn is engaged is not a bug. Both systems simply do not share the same axis, hence the gap, sometimes. In that case, small input on the rudder to align the reticles will do the trick.

 

Note that if you are comfortable enough with the system, you can always engage manual firing. It will always give you clearance ("c" does not stand for clearance, but it's a nice reminder) whatever the position, distance, and location in the galaxy, and you can fire your vickhrs whenever you want :)

I always engage manual fire, btw.

 

Another issue might be that I expected modern attack helis to simply pop up behind a tree line, instantly lock on to anything metal/vehicle and the pilot just fires off an ATGM. Is that a movie cliche I am falling for?

 

Yes and no. The AI knows you are here anyway (that's how smart it is), so unlike in real life, the surprise may not be on your side. But you can still benefit from a relative cover (with terrain, NOT with the trees) and light them up before they do. Depending on the weapon you are planning to use, you just have to know your procedures well enough to be fast and precise. Instant lock, nope. But fast lock, yes. But this is definitely doable. AND fun AND rewarding.

 

The manual explains ATGM launches on page 11-16:

What is "automatic" about the targeting? I manually have to move the camera around, lock on, then finely adjust the helicopter heading before firing, which leaves me floating in the air like AA bait for at least half a minute.

 

As explained above.

 

And how does one quickly attack several targets with the machine cannon? Assuming I want to fly over the area, destroy 4 trucks without hovering around. Manually moving the shkval and locking on targets is near impossible because of the small angle of the cannon and or targets simply being out of range of the camera. I could use the gun forward fixed, but then what is the poing of having the automatic tracking?

(Is there a way to lock the gun in a specific angle without tracking a ground target? For example lock it slightly to the right and down so that it can be used like a fixed door gun of sorts)

 

Experience will show you that unless you are absolutely sure there's no danger in the area you are about to fly over, you should refrain from doing that. The KA canon does not have the same firing angle flexibility as, say, the apache or a huey mounted gun. If you feel safe enough, first don't speed up. Too much speed will prevent you from targetting efficiently. Auto-turn on target will also help you keeping the canon on line with your heading.

 

Spot a pack of vehicles form a distance, point the reticle in their overall direction, and with the SCHKVAL, lock them one by one, fire, proceed to the next. The canon is quite efficient and powerful. As soon as you see some smoke, the target is as good as destroyed. Don't wast more ammo, on to the next. You will get better and better with some training.

 

And last, what is the shkval scanning for? All it did was move left and right, I expected it to lock onto something on its own.

 

What you said, AFAIK. It does not target anything, it's just a methodic sweep.

 

I just want to add that those were my methods (part experience, part reading). I am still learning a lot of stuff, but so far, those worked pretty well for me.

 

 

Here.

Edited March 7, 2014 by tsumikae

[Bushmanni]

Another issue might be that I expected modern attack helis to simply pop up behind a tree line, instantly lock on to anything metal/vehicle and the pilot just fires off an ATGM. Is that a movie cliche I am falling for?

 

And how does one quickly attack several targets with the machine cannon? Assuming I want to fly over the area, destroy 4 trucks without hovering around. Manually moving the shkval and locking on targets is near impossible because of the small angle of the cannon and or targets simply being out of range of the camera. I could use the gun forward fixed, but then what is the poing of having the automatic tracking?

(Is there a way to lock the gun in a specific angle without tracking a ground target? For example lock it slightly to the right and down so that it can be used like a fixed door gun of sorts).

 

Choppers with a radar can quickly scan the visible area and find targets, lock the targets the radar has found and quickly fire off ATGMs on them. There's very little info about Russian chopper radars and their capabilities and it doesn't seem like Russians are trying to achieve this kind of capability in the first place so this capability is most likely proprietary to Apache Longbow. Rest of the choppers have to rely on a fast gunner.

 

You can easily engage multiple targets in one attack run with the gun. Don't bother locking the targets but just slew the reticle on target, shoot and slew to next target. There's a bug that causes the laser range to jump suddenly to a wrong reading so you need to monitor the range and re-lase when needed. With practice (assuming you have HOTAS) you can fly the chopper and slew the camera at the same time. If your speed is less than 130km/h all you need to do is turn the chopper with pedals to get the gun inside constraints. In general it's much faster and accurate to engage ground targets by slewing Shkval on target and then flying the gun inside constraints than trying to point the gun on target by flying.

 

Here's a video showing what I'm talking about.

[GGTharos]

The helmet system is not that comfortable without using TRACKIR, and it does not seem that precise on targets that are far away.

 

So what is the best way to acquire targets that are 6+km away?

 

1. Manually move tv camera and lock

2. Use helmet sight to quickly get roughly near it then adjust the camera manually?

 

#2. Assuming you've spotted things with the eyeball, of course. Also, the system can automatically point you at whatever target your designate, so it will do some of the flying for you.

 

I think this is off center as the single shot setting on the vikhr alternates left/right. Is that causing it to be not "quite" on target? I swear when I switched to 2 shot salvo setting it was ready to fire but I may imagine things.

 

So is that bug in the game, something as intended on the real ka50 or am I doing this wrong?

 

It's not you, but I also couldn't tell you if it's realistic or not.

 

Another issue might be that I expected modern attack helis to simply pop up behind a tree line, instantly lock on to anything metal/vehicle and the pilot just fires off an ATGM. Is that a movie cliche I am falling for?

 

Yes, it's a movie cliche.

 

What is "automatic" about the targeting? I manually have to move the camera around, lock on, then finely adjust the helicopter heading before firing, which leaves me floating in the air like AA bait for at least half a minute.

 

There's plenty of automation in all of this: You can receive an off-board target, select it and be automatically steered onto it. Yes, you may have to put in some small corrections, but this entire capability just saved you a huge amount of time. In THIS respect, you get a bit closer to your cliche, and eventually you'll learn to line up a lot faster.

 

(Is there a way to lock the gun in a specific angle without tracking a ground target? For example lock it slightly to the right and down so that it can be used like a fixed door gun of sorts)

 

This depends on what you are trying to achieve, what tools are available, and your environment. I don't know if there's a way to set the camera and gun to be platform-stabilized instead of ground-stabilized, in fact I think it defeats the purpose ... so use the fixed forward mode.

 

And last, what is the shkval scanning for? All it did was move left and right, I expected it to lock onto something on its own.

 

Then it would lock onto random patches of contrasty stuff. It's scanning on its own and you can look at it - but you don't have to move the camera yourself, thus freeing your mind and hands from that chore.

[lmp]

There's a bug that causes the laser range to jump suddenly to a wrong reading so you need to monitor the range and re-lase when needed.

 

Are you sure this is a bug? Without a laser range, the Shkval can only guess the range, based on the angular movement of the sensor and I imagine it must be wildly inaccurate, especially since the Shkval has no knowledge of the terrain shape. I'm pretty convinced this works as it should...

[karambiatos]

Are you sure this is a bug? Without a laser range, the Shkval can only guess the range, based on the angular movement of the sensor and I imagine it must be wildly inaccurate, especially since the Shkval has no knowledge of the terrain shape. I'm pretty convinced this works as it should...

 

the laser distance can jump randomly up or down after the moment the laser stops lasing, sometimes it jumps way too high just by touching the shkval slew, this has only started happening in recent patches, Ive had the shkval start counting the distance upward after the laser stopped lasing, and kept counting up until it reached 100 km, even though the laser only goes up to 15, and i didnt even touch the shkval slew keys.

 

Also on some parts of the map, or some missions it can be a real pain to use, and on some its fine. Its become so problematic id rather not have a range calculation when the laser stops, if the actual thing is this awful, i dont think it would use the range calculation, heck id rather have the option to manually dial it in after the laser, than this god awful automatic thing.

 

Doesnt sound like its working properly.

Edited March 7, 2014 by karambiatos

[Fishbreath]

Are you sure this is a bug? Without a laser range, the Shkval can only guess the range, based on the angular movement of the sensor and I imagine it must be wildly inaccurate, especially since the Shkval has no knowledge of the terrain shape. I'm pretty convinced this works as it should...

 

There are times when it gets confused and it (probably) shouldn't—it's locked onto a target, the helo is moving, and suddenly the range changes by 10-20%. I usually just throw my hands up and say, "Eh, Russian hardware," though.

[xaoslaad]

I literally laughed out loud. You are basically not flying the Ka-50 at this point, you're just fighting a losing battle. Note: I laughed at how horrible that experience must be for you.

 

I also laughed at the fact that you haven't even bound the one button you should be pressing more than any other by far.

 

It was a laugh of bitter compassion.

 

Its okay. Things will get better now. :thumbup:

 

I realize a lot of people spout 'trim constantly' but I don't use the trimmer much at all. Maybe if I need to steady the thing when I'm preparing to fire on targets, but honestly with most stuff required to engage targets mapped to the hotas even then it's not a huge priority for me. TIR and head tracking are a great aid to this as well.

 

My point is that I don't think it is automatically required and an automatic fail if you don't. I personally like the stick pushing back a little rather than dead center. Even with the warthog I find having it out of center allows for a bit more precise manipulation.

 

To each their own though. I haven't even clicked Submit Reply and can already here people shouting this at me:

:megalol:

[ZaltysZ]

Also on some parts of the map, or some missions it can be a real pain to use, and on some its fine.

 

Which parts of map? I guess, it is when you are flying (not hovering) over rough (not flat) terrain. Am I right?

[karambiatos]

Which parts of map? I guess, it is when you are flying (not hovering) over rough (not flat) terrain. Am I right?

 

ive had it over flat terrain more than rough, and usually the flat plains near the sea.

 

Go figure.

[lmp]

Ok, I'll expand on why I think it could be a feature, not a bug.

 

Firstly, in order to approximate range to target B based on known (measured) range to target A on flat terrain the targeting computer needs to know at the very least:

- the change of the sensor's elevation and azimuth since the lase;

- any change in the helicopter's attitude since the lase;

- any change in the helicopter's position since the lase.

 

Any error in the measurement of any of those parameters will result in an inaccurate approximation. And of course no physical measuring device is free of errors, so some inaccuracy is to be expected. As we get lower and further from the target, the same angular error will result in a bigger range error (see pic1 - angles between the black lines are the same, but in the first case, the range difference is much bigger). I did some tests by spawning my helicopter outside the populated part of the map, where the terrain is flat, and measuring errors at different altitudes and distances and it seemed to work as I described. The closer to the target and higher above it I was, the less significant the errors were.

 

If we include rough, Caucasian terrain in the equation, things get more interesting. If, for instance, you lased a target on a hillside, and then elevated the sensor a few degrees up, you would overestimate the new range if you used only the parameters I listed (pic2). I tried this in the sim as well, and it seems the Shkval takes terrain shape under account somehow (or the game is indeed bugged). Does it use the ABRIS map data? Or some sort of image processing? I don't know, but any new variable in the system will add more errors and might result in a bigger inaccuracy and stranger range reading...

 

So, summing up, I believe errors like the ones we're getting are quite possible. My "analysis" and tests are certainly not very scientific, but I would be surprised if I could aim my Shkval at a target 4 kilometers and two hills away from my last lase and get an accurate range estimation without relasing. Of course, there may be bugs in the game, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge :).

Edited March 7, 2014 by lmp

[Flagrum]

Ok, I'll expand on why I think it could be a feature, not a bug.

 

Firstly, in order to approximate range to target B based on known (measured) range to target A on flat terrain the targeting computer needs to know at the very least:

- the change of the sensor's elevation and azimuth since the lase;

- any change in the helicopter's attitude since the lase;

- any change in the helicopter's position since the lase.

 

Any error in the measurement of any of those parameters will result in an inaccurate approximation. And of course no physical measuring device is free of errors, so some inaccuracy is to be expected. As we get lower and further from the target, the same angular error will result in a bigger range error (see pic1 - angles between the black lines are the same, but in the first case, the range difference is much bigger). I did some tests by spawning my helicopter outside the populated part of the map, where the terrain is flat, and measuring errors at different altitudes and distances and it seemed to work as I described. The closer to the target and higher above it I was, the less significant the errors were.

 

If we include rough, Caucasian terrain in the equation, things get more interesting. If, for instance, you lased a target on a hillside, and then elevated the sensor a few degrees up, you would overestimate the new range if you used only the parameters I listed (pic2). I tried this in the sim as well, and it seems the Shkval takes terrain shape under account somehow (or the game is indeed bugged). Does it use the ABRIS map data? Or some sort of image processing? I don't know, but any new variable in the system will add more errors and might result in a bigger inaccuracy and stranger range reading...

 

So, summing up, I believe errors like the ones we're getting are quite possible. My "analysis" and tests are certainly not very scientific, but I would be surprised if I could aim my Shkval at a target 4 kilometers and two hills away from my last lase and get an accurate range estimation without relasing. Of course, there may be bugs in the game, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge :).

It can only use the ABRIS map data - and this could be an other big factor for the calculation: the resolution of the data. The elevation data is not available for every square foot of georgia. It rather is stored for chunks or "tiles" of ... don't know, perhaps varying resolutions of 10x10 ft, 100x100 ft, etc.

 

So, if we lase a target and get its exact elevation and then move the Shkval just one foot further, the elevation (-> slant range -> distance) should not change much. But if the new spot is now on a different "tile" of the map, with a different elevation than the tile where our original target was, all calculations are then based on different base information.

 

Example:

Tile A: elev. 100 ft

Tile B: elev. 120 ft

Shkval lases tgt on A and measures 106 ft (i.e. turret of a tank). After some Pythagoras we get the exact distance.

We move the Shkval a few feet off our target and the map data says there "120 ft". Although all angles are almost the same, we get a totally different result.