Beyond Visual Range Struggles

[[Knight]]

There we go. If you want a thing vs thing thread, there's a Chit-Chat section. Do it there.

 

Ding, I for one hope that these 120's are fixed getting real sick of these things bleeding speed right away and the tracking is so poor ATM. I swear for every 2 that I launch 1 is a dud right from the rail even 10 miles away perfect lock head on. This S*** needs fixed, its not right. As of right now some people will say "Well the game is balanced with the 120's being utter crap" HA, this is a simulator every thing should be made to spec as close as possible. There is no such thing as balancing in a simulator. If you want balancing go play warthunder or world of war planes. Other wise lets get the ball rolling here. :joystick:

[Frostie]

Ding, I for one hope that these 120's are fixed getting real sick of these things bleeding speed right away and the tracking is so poor ATM. I swear for every 2 that I launch 1 is a dud right from the rail even 10 miles away perfect lock head on. This S*** needs fixed, its not right. As of right now some people will say "Well the game is balanced with the 120's being utter crap" HA, this is a simulator every thing should be made to spec as close as possible. There is no such thing as balancing in a simulator. If you want balancing go play warthunder or world of war planes. Other wise lets get the ball rolling here. :joystick:

All missiles have the same issues, i'm tired of hearing people bleat about their 120's when the actual problems of hitting moving targets with missiles actually effects every missile. Surely by now the penny has dropped that if you fire at a bandit in a certain aspect your missile is going to suffer, if the bandit starts defending that missile you launched then he's going to need another one to keep him busy whilst you get out of dodge and come back to fight again or push for the merge, all depends on how confident you are. But if you lose out don't start blaming it on missiles because it's the same problem for all.

You know the deal so adapt, there is no black and white that says x missile should kill y bandit 100% of the time in a given scenario.

 

This just fuels reason to lay blame on anything but pilot error. The opponent survived, he defeated your missile, you died, you didn't defeat his missile, simple.

When/if missile tracking improves the BVR arena will be tougher but you'll still get shot at and still need to concentrate on surviving, so if you're getting shot down now you will still get shot down later on.

[[Knight]]

My post isn't about me or my piloting skills nor about me being shot down because I didn't go defensive fast enough or pop chaff or flares, its about 120 being garbage considering the real missile can kill a target 30+ miles away. I suggest watch some tacviews and maybe you will see what 75% of everyone else has seen. Stop trying and judge the player and open your eyes to the big picture, or is it to hard to concede what the problem is.

 

I guess this guy has no Idea what he is talking about I guess he sucks at flying the F-15 too. :lol:

 

 

AIM-7F Raero at 40000' is 53nm. We know this, we have the data for this missile. Its practical range is constrained by the seeker which needs to see the SARH reflection all the way from the launch to terminal intercept. This translates into a sea level Raero of about 20nm.

 

Raero for AIM-7MH is similar or a little better (same rocket type, could be more powerful propellant).

 

AIM-120A requirement is greater range and average speed to target than AIM-7MH.

 

In other words, under perfect circumstances, in game, the AIM-120B should be shooting down targets at least 53nm away at 40000' from M1 launch.

 

AIM-120C should be reaching a little further away. And with a Mach 2 and high altitude launch, you should not be surprised to see an Raero of 80nm.

 

Another small point of information is that the SLAMRAAM was required to provide a 10nm umbrella ... that is from a ground start at zero airspeed, and against aircraft performing certain maneuvers.

 

Open your eyes Frostie, I know your a good pilot, but don't put blame on people when you dont know what your talking about.

Edited May 3, 2014 by [Knight]

[Exorcet]

its about 120 being garbage considering the real missile can kill a target 30+ miles away.

As Frostie says this applies to all missiles.

 

 

 

 

Open your eyes Frostie, I know your a good pilot, but don't put blame on people when you dont know what your talking about.

I'd say he does know, you missed the point. Missiles are broken. You've got all the right in the world to complain how they're not accurate. However that doesn't stop you from using tactics that work in place of tactics that should work but don't. That's what he's saying.

[[Knight]]

Really, all missiles? I don't think so, the ER works just fine ET's 73's Aim-9 All work fine, The Sparrow is ok but can be better. I understand that the all the missiles have been effected but the 120 has taken the biggest hit in this game. What some of you are not getting is how powerful the 120's are. Yes I know if I fire at someone and they crank left the right its gonna bleed the energy but.. the 120 already losses energy from the loft making it even worse. But its more than that. The Guidance system is off by a long shot. There is no reason the 120 should lose track after being supported past Pitbull less than 15 nm from the rail. So the pilot has what 10 seconds to maneuver their jet and chaff hoping the missile goes for the bait, might work every now and then but not every time. I have even had 120's come off the rail with no timer (dead). 120 is by far the worst A2A missile in the game thus far, hell probably be better off killing someone by waving your hand at them.

[Frostie]

120 is by far the worst A2A missile in the game thus far, hell probably be better off killing someone by waving your hand at them.

I understand your complaints i've flown the F-15 many times, but worst A2A missile in the game, no way, if I had to be at 10nm range head to head against any bandit my first choice of missile I would want would be an AIM-120C. ET easily spoofed, ER same plus the shooter needs to keep the lock. I will win this situation with a 120C more times than with any other missile.

 

However wrong it maybe the advantage from flying Russian is the RWR allows you to time your manoeuvre against incoming actives, you can't use this against SARH which makes it harder to defeat.

[Mandrake5]

All missiles have the same issues, i'm tired of hearing people bleat about their 120's when the actual problems of hitting moving targets with missiles actually effects every missile. Surely by now the penny has dropped that if you fire at a bandit in a certain aspect your missile is going to suffer, if the bandit starts defending that missile you launched then he's going to need another one to keep him busy whilst you get out of dodge and come back to fight again or push for the merge, all depends on how confident you are. But if you lose out don't start blaming it on missiles because it's the same problem for all.

You know the deal so adapt, there is no black and white that says x missile should kill y bandit 100% of the time in a given scenario.

 

This just fuels reason to lay blame on anything but pilot error. The opponent survived, he defeated your missile, you died, you didn't defeat his missile, simple.

When/if missile tracking improves the BVR arena will be tougher but you'll still get shot at and still need to concentrate on surviving, so if you're getting shot down now you will still get shot down later on.

 

That may be, but you're conveniently missing the key point: compared to the red fighters the F15C is poorly equipped for WVR and therefore RELIES upon the prowess of its advanced BVR package in combat.

 

It's all very well glibly stating that the underperforming missiles 'effect all pilots equally' from the cockpit of your EOS+HMS+R27ET+R73 equipped Flanker, but this is patently untrue. Indeed, it obviously suits red pilots very nicely for the F15s to be forced into close range fights right now where you have more than the edge.

[Frostie]

That may be, but you're conveniently missing the key point: compared to the red fighters the F15C is poorly equipped for WVR and therefore RELIES upon the prowess of its advanced BVR package in combat.

 

It's all very well glibly stating that the underperforming missiles 'effect all pilots equally' from the cockpit of your EOS+HMS+R27ET+R73 equipped Flanker, but this is patently untrue. Indeed, it obviously suits red pilots very nicely for the F15s to be forced into close range fights right now where you have more than the edge.

Is this a game about points or a sim about air combat. If you merge with an enemy that is superior in WVR then expect to lose, if you want to control the airspace then fly higher than the enemy and rain actives on them pushing them lower and further away, that is the way it works.

If you're not happy with failing to splash the bandits and score points because they got low and turned away from your missiles then by all means chase them down get in a merge, but don't then get upset when you lose.

 

If you stay out of his comfort zone he can't kill you, if he wants to kill you he has to push to you where he will die. The mentality of failing to kill your target so you must press until you do is the undoing of so many.

I've killed plenty of bandits with 120C from 20nm, my failure has been when i've pressed too much, with mutual support you can control the airspace with AIM-120C.

[Mandrake5]

Is this a game about points or a sim about air combat. If you merge with an enemy that is superior in WVR then expect to lose, if you want to control the airspace then fly higher than the enemy and rain actives on them pushing them lower and further away, that is the way it works.

If you're not happy with failing to splash the bandits and score points because they got low and turned away from your missiles then by all means chase them down get in a merge, but don't then get upset when you lose.

 

If you stay out of his comfort zone he can't kill you, if he wants to kill you he has to push to you where he will die. The mentality of failing to kill your target so you must press until you do is the undoing of so many.

I've killed plenty of bandits with 120C from 20nm, my failure has been when i've pressed too much, with mutual support you can control the airspace with AIM-120C.

 

Again, all valid points, but still you refuse to acknowledge the real issue that nerfed MRMs strongly favour the red jets. I wonder why you choose to keep looking past this? Not sure I appreciate the condescending insinuations about games/points either.

 

As it happens, I want my DCS experience to reflect reality as closely as possible: i.e, I expect my F15s to have a shot at dominating the air using their real world technological advantages in BVR. I don't expect to constantly RTB Winchester with zero kills or to be drawn into WVR dogfighting in EVERY SINGLE engagement simply because my main weapon system currently has the PK of a jar of marmite @>8nm.

[TAW_Blaze]

Agree with both of you, flying on a server only teaches you one thing, and that is being greedy.

 

However the fact that high to low shots are nowhere as effective as they should be it's is arguably a lot easier to get to the merge for the russian jets, combined that with the lack of datalink on the Eagle that promotes flying low even to a further point, and you get where we are currently.

[Frostie]

Again, all valid points, but still you refuse to acknowledge the real issue that nerfed MRMs strongly favour the red jets. I wonder why you choose to keep looking past this? Not sure I appreciate the condescending insinuations about games/points either.

 

As it happens, I want my DCS experience to reflect reality as closely as possible: i.e, I expect my F15s to have a shot at dominating the air using their real world technological advantages in BVR. I don't expect to constantly RTB Winchester with zero kills or to be drawn into WVR dogfighting in EVERY SINGLE engagement simply because my main weapon system currently has the PK of a jar of marmite @>8nm.

 

I agree it is easier in a gaming scenario to get kills for Red, especially when you throw in datalink.

 

Missiles are not nerfed, they are still WIP resulting from the transistion to AFM.

 

If you want your DCS to reflect reality then get a buddy and support some ground pounders. Help them get in and kill some tanks then you can RTB and celebrate your victory together whether you made any kills or not. The bad guy doesn't want to die anymore than you do so what makes his claim for not getting any kills because of 'those damn F-15s circling around the target area' any different to yours.

 

 

Not sure I appreciate the condescending insinuations about games/points either.

I'm sorry but maybe it was another glibly put statement.

[RIPTIDE]

Really, all missiles? I don't think so, the ER works just fine ET's 73's Aim-9 All work fine, The Sparrow is ok but can be better. I understand that the all the missiles have been effected but the 120 has taken the biggest hit in this game. What some of you are not getting is how powerful the 120's are. Yes I know if I fire at someone and they crank left the right its gonna bleed the energy but.. the 120 already losses energy from the loft making it even worse. But its more than that. The Guidance system is off by a long shot. There is no reason the 120 should lose track after being supported past Pitbull less than 15 nm from the rail. So the pilot has what 10 seconds to maneuver their jet and chaff hoping the missile goes for the bait, might work every now and then but not every time. I have even had 120's come off the rail with no timer (dead). 120 is by far the worst A2A missile in the game thus far, hell probably be better off killing someone by waving your hand at them.

The ET's probably need a buff vs head on AB targets.

[lunaticfringe]

The ET's probably need a buff vs head on AB targets.

 

Based on? This is not "buff/nerf". This is sensor resolution and quality versus range.

[RIPTIDE]

Based on? This is not "buff/nerf". This is sensor resolution and quality versus range.

Because there is no diff in LA between a target head on AB and not ABing, currently in the SIM.

[SDsc0rch]

i thought i read somewhere on here that ED has "plenty" of F-15 SMEs

 

(or words to that effect)

 

couldn't this all be cleared up rather easily? maybe it already has...?

[NineLine]

i thought i read somewhere on here that ED has "plenty" of F-15 SMEs

 

(or words to that effect)

 

couldn't this all be cleared up rather easily? maybe it already has...?

 

They had an F-15 SME testing the PFM, that doesnt mean he is allowed to spill all his knowledge to ED. Also doesnt mean ED can just input a number somewhere and the missiles are magically perfect.

[GGTharos]

Real life missile data is secret. The SME's don't want to be in jail.

 

i thought i read somewhere on here that ED has "plenty" of F-15 SMEs

 

(or words to that effect)

 

couldn't this all be cleared up rather easily? maybe it already has...?

[Oberst Zeisig]

I agree it is easier in a gaming scenario to get kills for Red, especially when you throw in datalink.

 

Missiles are not nerfed, they are still WIP resulting from the transistion to AFM.

 

If you want your DCS to reflect reality then get a buddy and support some ground pounders. Help them get in and kill some tanks then you can RTB and celebrate your victory together whether you made any kills or not. The bad guy doesn't want to die anymore than you do so what makes his claim for not getting any kills because of 'those damn F-15s circling around the target area' any different to yours.

 

 

 

I'm sorry but maybe it was another glibly put statement.

 

Sure missiles are WIP and all missiles have (mostly) the same problems in game now. So that's why it depends now more on the fighting qualitiy of the plane and not the quality of the missile. The Flankers just have EOS, Datalink and Supermaneuverability meaning they have sneaking and dogfighting abilities, these abilities get now important when the power of the missiles is so weak and that's why the flankers have the big advantage in the moment. I think it's that simple. I surely don't think its on intention of ED or some tweaking or something. It just happend by accident in the struggle of keeping as close to RL as possible.

But i also think its allowed to say that due to the fact that eagles mainly rely on controlling the airspace on further ranges with AMRAAMs the result in MP according to MP behaviour is just VERY far from RL.

If I want to get a good kill ratio I just take the flanker as its just very easy to trick some noobs in running into an ET. But I like flying the Eagle as it is now (besides AFM) more interesting in training flexible bvr engagements on closer distance or even get to a merge where the AFM has proven to have better turning abilities.

[GGTharos]

I generally agree ...

 

The Flankers just have EOS, Datalink

EOS adjusted to realistic performance is less of a pain for the opponent, though it's still an advantage for the wielder.

 

and Supermaneuverability

No, they definitely don't have that, nor should they :D

They turn a bit better and turning better is easy to take advantage of. The Eagle fights better, but you have to know things that we never actually talk about on the forum to even understand that, let alone use it.

 

But i also think its allowed to say that due to the fact that eagles mainly rely on controlling the airspace on further ranges with AMRAAMs the result in MP according to MP behaviour is just VERY far from RL.

It isn't just the missile, the aircraft equipment is also responsible for problems - I'm looking at the radar of course.

[Mandrake5]

I generally agree ...

 

The Eagle fights better, but you have to know things that we never actually talk about on the forum to even understand that, let alone use it.

 

 

Could you give us a clue? Happy to do my own research if I know where to even start :music_whistling:

[TAW_Blaze]

Could you give us a clue? Happy to do my own research if I know where to even start :music_whistling:

 

It's not really something you can research. If you know the right people and they are kind enough to you, they might teach it to you. I'm not really convinced though that everything can be passed via communications and debriefs. I'm looking at stick handling in particular.

[Oberst Zeisig]

I generally agree ...

 

EOS adjusted to realistic performance is less of a pain for the opponent, though it's still an advantage for the wielder.

 

I've tested it now and I can't see a real change with that at the flanker. I still can lock afterburning targets at 140 km or so and I can lock targets head on at mil power up to 30km. (maybe more)

[Mandrake5]

It's not really something you can research. If you know the right people and they are kind enough to you' date=' they might teach it to you. I'm not really convinced though that everything can be passed via communications and debriefs. I'm looking at stick handling in particular.[/quote']

 

 

Ok, understood - I guess the next question is: are these mysterious differences in 'fighting quality' modelled in DCS?

[Oberst Zeisig]

The Eagle fights better, but you have to know things that we never actually talk about on the forum to even understand that, let alone use it.

 

Do You mean the thrust-to-weight-ratio-thing and not just turning but trading speed for altitude (high jo-jo) and that sort of dogfigting theory? That would interest me too what are the basic advantages of the eagle in a dogfight?

[TAW_Blaze]

Ok, understood - I guess the next question is: are these mysterious differences in 'fighting quality' modelled in DCS?

 

In case of a mirror fight, it's merely down to pilot skill and execution. In case of DACT, you fight around your bird's advantages, and use your enemy's weaknesses. Saying that is easy as hell, executing it in a fight takes years of practice. This is why I said researching is moot.

 

Do You mean the thrust-to-weight-ratio-thing and not just turning but trading speed for altitude (high jo-jo) and that sort of dogfigting theory? That would interest me too what are the basic advantages of the eagle in a dogfight?

 

T/W is pretty worthless. Specific excess power graphs and available max G/available sustained G graphs show where it's at. Essentially those will define your options in a given position.