Question for panel makers - engraving.. how do you do it?

[Warhog]

Stevos

 

I suspect you don't need a controller if your dealing with a laser. It should be just like a printer in that respect.

 

But if you do need one the Gecko540 is one of the best controllers out there. I built my CNC Mill controller using the 540. Its an excellent piece of engineering. You will also need to match it with a good PSU.

 

Here's something to consider about your decision to purchase a laser engraver vs. a small CNC mill. What will you do with the laser once you cut out your panels? It use is quite limited. The CNC mill however will not only do the engraving but if you need to make parts for anything you can use the CNC mill for that. Actually it would be preferable to have both and I will probably go down that road sooner than later.

 

...whoever has the most toys. Right guys.:thumbup:

[Stevos758]

Stevos

 

I suspect you don't need a controller if your dealing with a laser. It should be just like a printer in that respect.

 

But if you do need one the Gecko540 is one of the best controllers out there. I built my CNC Mill controller using the 540. Its an excellent piece of engineering. You will also need to match it with a good PSU.

 

Here's something to consider about your decision to purchase a laser engraver vs. a small CNC mill. What will you do with the laser once you cut out your panels? It use is quite limited. The CNC mill however will not only do the engraving but if you need to make parts for anything you can use the CNC mill for that. Actually it would be preferable to have both and I will probably go down that road sooner than later.

 

...whoever has the most toys. Right guys.:thumbup:

 

Thanks! I already have a CNC router so that is no problem there!

 

I just want to play with a laser too!

[agrasyuk]

Sorry i might have confused you. the one you were looking to get does have the DSP controller, it's the small ones that come with useless crap. if you want them to ship i think you might as well get some ebay model, to me it looked the business is a local reseller/distributor for Chinese machines. metalnwood had a somewhat more reputable direct from china supplier recommendation once , maybe he will chime in.

Edited May 22, 2014 by agrasyuk

[metalnwood]

I got this one http://www.wklaser.com/pro_195.aspx

 

Have a look at what they offer under laser engravers. I will see if I can dig up some prices I had to give you an idea.

[cichlidfan]

Interesting that they specifically list jade and marble as suitable materials. I never would have thought of using a laser for cutting marble. Learn something new.

 

:)

[metalnwood]

The last pricing I got from them was $2300usd for this

 

http://www.wklaser.com/pro_180.aspx

 

$1800usd for this

 

http://www.wklaser.com/pro_180.aspx

 

$2500 for this

 

http://www.wklaser.com/pro_180.aspx

 

Then there is shipping. It cost me 300USD from china to New Zealand + any other costs on your end.

 

I can't comment on the one you posted above Steve but I can say it looks like it comes with what is required so you should be OK. I would really suggest getting the additional cooler. These lasers need to be plumbed in to a cool water supply that is continuously running and these do a good job of it.

 

What I can't say about it is where it came from or the overall quality of the build. I do know lots of people with the G.Weike and it is right up there with the best chinese lasers for build.

 

You would have to work out if it's cost effective to bring one in. In NZ, bringing one in was the only way because we don't have guys selling them with little markup, more like 100%+ markup.

 

They are easy to look after yourself. There are a few things that can break and they are replaceable. If something is likely to break it will be the tube or the power supply. I also ordered spares for these parts but you can probably get replacement parts close by, e.g. the supplier you listed as they are all basically the same things.

[metalnwood]

Interesting that they specifically list jade and marble as suitable materials. I never would have thought of using a laser for cutting marble. Learn something new.

 

:)

 

They will not cut stone but they can engrave on to stone, tiles, glass etc.

[cichlidfan]

They will not cut stone but they can engrave on to stone, tiles, glass etc.

 

That difference occurred to me after I posted. :doh: It's still cool that you could engrave.

[Stevos758]

I'll contact them and get a quote.

 

On another note. Anyone have any recomended feeds and speeds for engraving acrylic on CNC?

 

Tried running 25000RPM and 1600mmpm and started to get some melting.

 

Tried again at 3000mmpm and same thing.

 

I am using These

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=151247764955&view=all&tid=1074695945005

 

Cutting .04" deep.

[Warhog]

I'll contact them and get a quote.

 

On another note. Anyone have any recomended feeds and speeds for engraving acrylic on CNC?

 

Tried running 25000RPM and 1600mmpm and started to get some melting.

 

Tried again at 3000mmpm and same thing.

 

I am using These

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=151247764955&view=all&tid=1074695945005

 

Cutting .04" deep.

 

You must use a 2 flute endmill, slowest possible spindle speed and a fast feed rate. The idea is to have the endmill turning as slow as possible which reduces friction during the cut but keep the feed rate fast so the actual time the endmill makes contact in one spot is dramatically reduced. That should solve your melting issue. I usually use a .125 endmill and take .03" off each time. I also hit the endmill with a stream of compressed air to keep it cool and blow chips away.

 

I still occasionally get some very minor melting but hardly anything. Experiment based on what I use and see how that works for you.

[Stevos758]

Thanks, I'll give that a try soon!

[metalnwood]

I'll contact them and get a quote.

 

On another note. Anyone have any recomended feeds and speeds for engraving acrylic on CNC?

 

Tried running 25000RPM and 1600mmpm and started to get some melting.

 

Tried again at 3000mmpm and same thing.

 

I am using These

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=151247764955&view=all&tid=1074695945005

 

Cutting .04" deep.

 

I can't see what tool you are using, ebay is having a freakout for me.

 

1mm, or 0.04" is very deep for engraving so that will cause you some grief.

 

This si the kind of bit made for engraving, they are cheap as chips.

 

https://www.google.co.nz/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=C8F_U6eQLIn8mAWRnYDADw#q=cnc+engraving+bit

 

glick on the images to see a page full of them.

 

 

Edit, here is a youtube of a small router using one for a pcb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYAfNTvgTak at the very end you can see a part next to the track that is 2mm wide for reference.

Edited May 23, 2014 by metalnwood

[Warhog]

If I might pass along a little food for thought... when purchasing engraving bits or endmills or most any kind of cutting tool, it has been my experience in doing this kind of thing for the past 15 years or so, that you get what you pay for. In many hobbies that isn't necessarily true but the difference in quality that you can achieve using higher end cutting tools is dramatic.

 

When I first started machining and in the more recent past, engraving, I used inexpensive cutting tools. I recommend that you go that route as well because process of learning costs money in broken cutting tools. Once you are comfortable with setting your feed rates and you know your machine and the materials you work with, its time to spend some money. You can continue on with the inexpensive stuff but you will have an extremely frustrating time getting the quality you want. Or maybe you say "that's good enough for what I need" and that of course is perfectly reasonable to.

 

I spend normally $15 for one .125" 30°V cutter .002" tip although I can buy 5 cutters for $15 from China. They do make some very nice stuff and some really shitty stuff as well.

 

In the end you decide what its worth and go after it. I just wanted to let you know that there area cheap cutters and expensive cutters and there is a reason for that.

 

Best of luck with your project. If you need some help and I can answer some questions I would be glad to.:)

 

BTW, When Metalnwood mentioned .04" depth being a bit of a stretch for engraving he is quite right. I never go deeper than.01" and I get beautiful lettering using a stick font set to a height of 0.15". I was actually assuming you were milling the acrylic when the melting started to occur. If that's the case and you can't control it getting the right speeds and feeds combo, you can also try specialized bits for acrylic such as http://dimar-canada.com/pdf/SolidCarbideOFlute1.pdf.

 

:thumbup:

[Stevos758]

Thanks Warhog! I'll give that a go later this week!

[DerekM]

There's some seriously good information in this thread, but I still have a few questions:

 

1. Am I right to say that while a laser engraver potentially gives the best results, it is (a) relatively expensive (b) not very compact, and © can emit some toxic fumes? The last two points are particularly important for me as I don't have a dedicated work area where I could set one up.
    
   
2. Are CNC-milling-style machines more compact and less toxic? And less expensive?
    
   
3. Does anyone have any experience with these Shapeoko kits? Are they suitable for engraving, etc?
   

 

I guess the main question I have is: what is the most compact (and cleanest) solution available?

 

- DerekM

[Stevos758]

I have one of these. Its fairly compact and I have build a small cat to move it around in my shop. From what I understand so far is Laser engraving is better for panel making overall. The CNC to me seems more useful as I can do aluminum as well and wood plastic ect.

 

When in doubt get both!

 

I believe a few members have the Shapeoko and I Think it would be fine for panel making but I'm sure they will chime in. I personally went with something a little more capable so I can use it for other things.

 

If you get something more robust like mine plan on spending another $500 for mach 3 controller software, Some sort of CAM(cut2d,meshcam), Bits, and Gwizard feed and speed calculator.

 

Here is some info some members have come up with

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=121827&highlight=CNC

 

http://www.carving-cnc.com/x61500series-1/cnc-x61500gt-router-engraver-drilling-and-milling-machine.html

 

Edited May 27, 2014 by Stevos758

[DerekM]

Thanks for the quick reply, Stevos758! Those links are very helpful. And now that you mention it, the ability to do more with a CNC compared to just a laser engraver is very appealing as well. I certainly don't have a budget for both machines at the moment.

[geneb]

Production quality goes:

 

1. Silk Screen (this is how the "real" commercial process works)

2. Laser engraving

3. Mechanical engraving

 

Regardless of anything else, go with what you can afford. It's as simple as that. :)

[metalnwood]

I played with rotary engraving over the last couple days helping someone out on their machine. I now have to say I would have no problems at all using it instead of a laser. This is for the smaller text usually found on panels like we have. A laser is def better when there are larger areas to be cleaned out but what I have just seen I could easily live with it.

 

This machine did have a special attachment for engraving and it would be important on a router to have a dead flat surface to get the results I achieved. It can certainly be done though

[Hempstead]

I have tried all 3.

 

Silk screening, unless you have large quantity and some good and expensive machines, it ain't worth the trouble. The art supply store sold light sensitive stuff isn't exactly designed for precision. So it requires some trial and error experiments.... Not exactly time saving for one off or small quantity.

 

CNC engraving is quite tricky to get right unless you just want stick fonts. If you are getting plastic melting, like WarHog says, get some good quality carbide V cutters, and try to rig up a flood coolant system. My first attempt in engraving polycarbonate lasted 3 seconds and cost $20 without flood coolant. Even with flood coolant, getting very fine details is quite a challenge/black art.

 

I find laser is the easiest to produce one off or small quantity, reasonably detailed panels. I use laser to engrave the panel face, then CNC mill the cut out and outline (laser cutting thick panels produces slanted edges and you can't really do pockets). Unfortunately most routers are quite difficult to rig up a flood coolant system due to their design of having stepper/servos pulley, belts/ACME screws on the bottom. Bigger machines suitable for flood coolant system is a bear to rig up. I actually build a 4'x6'x8' enclosure for my RF-45 (yes, you read that right, foot, not inch) and then rig up a 50 gallon fish tank for the coolant.

 

If you have the $$$ check out Tormach. But, be forewarned, real CNC is a long learning process.

[metalnwood]

Yes, I never liked CNC engraving because one the fonts got too large the quality suffered when your engraving tool had to do multiple passes over a wide area.

 

Today I was at a community workshop helping them get a CNC working and one of the guys there was wanting to make panels for a flight sim. When working with small text as usual on a panel, e.g. ~ 5mm high and it was able to be done in single passes the quality was great provided proper rotary engraving material was used, in this case I brought some gravoply.

 

Acrylic would not be my ideal medium for rotary engraving. I would definitely spend the money to get good material for rotary engraving when you want nice crisp lettering.

 

I have tried all 3.

 

Silk screening, unless you have large quantity and some good and expensive machines, it ain't worth the trouble. The art supply store sold light sensitive stuff isn't exactly designed for precision. So it requires some trial and error experiments.... Not exactly time saving for one off or small quantity.

 

CNC engraving is quite tricky to get right unless you just want stick fonts. If you are getting plastic melting, like WarHog says, get some good quality carbide V cutters, and try to rig up a flood coolant system. My first attempt in engraving polycarbonate lasted 3 seconds and cost $20 without flood coolant. Even with flood coolant, getting very fine details is quite a challenge/black art.

 

I find laser is the easiest to produce one off or small quantity, reasonably detailed panels. I use laser to engrave the panel face, then CNC mill the cut out and outline (laser cutting thick panels produces slanted edges and you can't really do pockets). Unfortunately most routers are quite difficult to rig up a flood coolant system due to their design of having stepper/servos pulley, belts/ACME screws on the bottom. Bigger machines suitable for flood coolant system is a bear to rig up. I actually build a 4'x6'x8' enclosure for my RF-45 (yes, you read that right, foot, not inch) and then rig up a 50 gallon fish tank for the coolant.

 

If you have the $$$ check out Tormach. But, be forewarned, real CNC is a long learning process.

[geneb]

I mentioned silk screening because that's how it's actually done on production panels. If you're going after a museum-quality reproduction, that's pretty much your only choice.

 

You can do pocketing operations on acrylic (cast, not extruded!) without any coolant at all - you use an upshear "O" flute bit like this: http://www.onsrud.com/product/Item/m/itemDetail.html?q=acrylic&itemId=63-510 and you'll get excellent results. This is the bit series I use when doing the panels on my F-15.

 

THE most important thing to pay attention to when cutting acrylic on a CNC machine is the chip load. The chip load is basically the size of the "chip" that is cut when one flute carves off a chunk of material. (and yes, I'm aware most of you guys know this, but for those that don't.... :D )

Onsrud provides an excellent series of chip load charts for all their cutters here: http://www.onsrud.com/xdoc/FeedSpeeds as well as a brief explanation of what it's all about.

 

When I pocket the back of a panel, I'll use an 1/8" cutter and use multiple .062" passes @ 10,000 RPM. I typically cut at 1in/sec with excellent results.

 

A machine like the Shapeoko2 should be perfectly adequate for doing your own panels - but I would upgrade it to a spindle that gives you excellent RPM control. Unfortunately, a good spindle and VFD could cost nearly as much as the CNC machine itself, but the results are SO worth it.

 

g.

[Stevos758]

Just ordered and onsrud cutter! Looks nice!

 

I cant wait to give it a whirl!

[geneb]

I was made aware of this today:

 

This will do exactly what you want and the included software is _excellent_. I've got both their VCarve Pro and Aspire packages. First rate stuff all the way.

 

g.

[metalnwood]

The o-flutes work very well on acrylic, they sell them with a slightly different geometry for aluminium as well and they work nicely too.

 

I find I don't need to use any coolant for acrylic, as Gene says, get the chip load right and you will not have any issues with melting, this is where the o-flute helps with a fast turning spindle.

 

Aluminium is the only thing I mill on a router where I use my mister, not flood coolant, to help keep the cutting edge clean.