AN/APG-63v3 and JHMCS?

[OnlyforDCS]

It's not an unreasonable request then. Though I imagine it would cause an uproar from the usual suspects who push for "balance" between the NATO and OPFOR aircraft in the current multiplayer environment.

[Sweep]

The necro'er's requests are not unreasonable, they're unnecessary.

 

You don't need fancy crap to win against a Hornet. Get above him in altitude and Mach and watch him...Uhh, Bug...Off? No, Bug out! :D

 

So about that AIM-9X: That DLZ is still collapsible. You can Rmin it, it's just very tough to do.

 

Any mid-90s to early 2000s Eagle will kill the Hornet fine IMO. The current modeling should do alright because these fights are all kinematically driven right now (missile FMs! yay!)...A few mods to the FC3 systems would probably be the best compromise of realism, cost, and dev time.

 

And as for balance...

Can we get over this ultrarealism silliness and get a Flanker/Fulcrum that represents the realistic threat, but isn't a realistic platform? I.e. better sensors and weapons? Kill two birds with one stone (the birds of realism and balance).

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Sweep
edited stuff...same point, different wording.

[IASGATG]

The necro'er's requests are not unreasonable, they're unnecessary.

 

You don't need fancy crap to win against a Hornet. Get above him in altitude and Mach and watch him...Uhh, Bug...Off? No, Bug out! :D

 

Don't be silly Sweep, true DCS modules are far superior to FC3 aircraft and will utterly destroy them.

[Sweep]

Don't be silly Sweep, true DCS modules are far superior to FC3 aircraft and will utterly destroy them.

 

#SwitchologySuperiority

[Frostie]

It will get real awkward when Typhoon comes out, a clean Typhoon coming head on at an F/A-18 probably won't get picked up on Hornet radar before 20nm he can sneak straight past his scan zone at 50,000ft and gun his six, in DCS at least. :prop:

[The Black Swan]

#SwitchologySuperiority

 

Sweep, it's the systems modeling.

F-18c should have data link, ATFLIR, a better radar, and can carry more missiles.

If it carries less missiles then at high altitude it could achieve M1.5 so in kinematics the difference is not that big (if you were meaning speed to boost missile performance I'm not talking about dogfighting)

That's all before you get to the aim-9x.

Edited April 11, 2017 by The Black Swan

[Sweep]

It will get real awkward when Typhoon comes out, a clean Typhoon coming head on at an F/A-18 probably won't get picked up on Hornet radar before 20nm he can sneak straight past his scan zone at 50,000ft and gun his six, in DCS at least. :prop:

 

Yeah the Typhoon is going to be a huge threat for everybody, everywhere.

 

USMC F-18 pilot on exchange with the RAF's Typhoons had some remarks about 1v1s a few years ago...Something like "The Hornet get's a chance at the first turn, then it's all tea and crumpets"

 

And as for RCS...This one value for all angles/configurations thing is definitely going to make reduced RCS platforms an interesting challenge!

 

Sweep, it's the systems modeling.

F-18c should have data link, ATFLIR, a better radar, and can carry more missiles.

If it carries less missiles then at high altitude it could achieve M1.5 so in kinematics the difference is not that big (if you were meaning speed to boost missile preformance I'm not talking about dogfighting)

That's all before you get to the aim-9x.

 

Sarcastic one line response to a sarcastic comment. Just saaaaaaaaayin'. :D

 

Data link is definitely nice. It makes killing the 1v1 air to air mentality just that much easier for the uninitiated, which is just perfect. ATFLIR ought to be cool too, but I think that really comes down to what other ID capabilities we'll get in the Bug...Like, do I want that pod or do I want an AMRAAM?

 

The radar, I'd imagine, is somewhat on par with what we currently have in the Eagle, probably with more functionality for certain things. The range and stuff is important though for the Bug because your acceleration sucks, so getting a clear picture and getting the commit started from early on is a priority.

 

More missiles brings a bunch of other problems. Look, mach 1.4, 1.5, whatever, that's great - How long does it take you to reach that? That's the problem. And that's where the Eagle will dominate the Hornet. Another thing here: Can you afford to go over the Mach? Do you have the gas to do it? That might be an issue too.

 

Also, I'm typically operating under the assumption that the AIM-9X is completely unaffected by flares.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Sweep

[Frostie]

 

And as for RCS...This one value for all angles/configurations thing is definitely going to make reduced RCS platforms an interesting challenge!

 

I should imagine the corners DCS cuts a fully loaded and a clean Typhoon will both have the RCS of a DCS F-16 from all angles. We're still waiting for better missiles without thought of some DCS level ECM, countermeasure, RCS modelling, instead we get dots 30nm away and can't see jack in a merge, at least the grass looks nice. DCS level BVR simulation is probably another 10 years away.

 

Hopefully i'm wrong but after flying the MiG-21 and Mirage all I see is them getting dragged under the FC BVR sim level umbrella. Unless ED pull something out of the bag with the Hornet I can't see it changing much.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Frostie

[TAW_Blaze]

I predict there will be 2 server scenarios:

 

1) EF banned, people fly their normal stuff

 

2) EF not banned, everyone flies the EF. This seems rather pointless.

 

I cannot comprehend the point of releasing such a module to the game at this point. It's like the P-51 where it will have no opponent for the next 5 years after it's release.

[*Rage*]

EF=££

 

Everybody wants it (especially me:))

[TAW_Blaze]

Great, then we might aswell rename it to Eurofighter World. :D

[microvax]

The thing is considering the current train wreck of VEAO module quality I estimate the probability of reworked DCS BVR mechanics with hornet release higher then a working EF from VEAO even in DCS speak soon TM.

 

They are over the I don't even know anymore iteration of "finishing 3d model", the hawk is still in wtf is even happening state and the "fm breaking DCS patch" for the p40 is really indicating a whole lot. I mean don't get me wrong, I want them to succeed and a EF would be cool, basically a dogfighting missile trash mobile, but everything that VEAO has done until now is basically indicating its not going to happen.

 

Just looking at the public available information about the EuroDASS Praetorian, Pirate and Captor the complexity of simulating that is really scary. Looking at Heatblur, who did the mig21, which is more complex then the hawk for sure, to a higher standard, then did the viggen, which they considered complex, comparing their performance to VEAO, I simply have huge doubts a working EF is going to materialize after a failing hawk and a as it seems at least troubled P40. Surely I am happy to be positively surprised, but well, optimism only goes so far.

 

 

In regards to the f18 vs f15 discussion. The f15 will keep slightly better acceleration and higher G tolerance. I do not know how the f18 fairs on max dry fuel consumption wise etc. but with the very short sortie times in DCS I at least consider the f18s short legs not being that much of a problem.

The f15 will get rekt on the basis of inferior features and not jhmcs nor aim9x is going to mitigate that at all, not even considering that jhmcs and aim9x on the eagle we have would be as realistic as a r74 on the current flanker in game.

 

plane to plane link16, firing aim120s radar off at datalink targets from unexpected angles or altitudes, actually implemented navigation equipment, all that kind of stuff is just giving a pilot who is willing to train with the systems an advantage over the f15 no type of armament can mitigate, except gimbal mounted railguns or something like that.

 

In a blunt headon engagement a f15 might have a slight advantage, but nothing that cant be overcome by tactics.

 

I do not think think the F15 will die out in MP though. I know enough f15 pilots who actually enjoy it not being full fidelity and thus les "work" then full fidelity modules.

[TAW_Blaze]

IMO ASM is only more work while you learn it. Anything beyond that it'll be second nature and at that point it doesn't matter from operation perspective. On the other hand it's a massive advantage when it comes to available tools if you have the full system behind, like you said.

[Sweep]

I think the F-15C will remain relevant against the Typhoon, definitely. It's just going to make you work that much harder to win. Like a Flanker, almost, but a bit different. WVR will be exceptionally tough for the Eagle with good pilots on both sides.

 

A proper Eagle would fix some things, but performance wise...Good luck. I think the Typhoon's only performance problem is very slow speed/high Alpha stuff. Hornet/Eagle guys should love fighting it slow. Otherwise, it goes high, it goes fast, it gets fast fast. I think VEAO figured out all that first time crap with module making, so it should be very interesting to fight.

 

In regards to the f18 vs f15 discussion. The f15 will keep slightly better acceleration and higher G tolerance.

 

Slightly better acceleration is an understatement when you throw in payloads, I think.

 

The f15 will get rekt on the basis of inferior features and not jhmcs nor aim9x is going to mitigate that at all, not even considering that jhmcs and aim9x on the eagle we have would be as realistic as a r74 on the current flanker in game.

 

It's not that drastic. It's a ~3 year difference between AIM-9X/JHMCS and our Eagle, roughly. R-74s are, AFAIK, pre-IOC (if that...). Interesting comparison for sure. :P

 

plane to plane link16, firing aim120s radar off at datalink targets from unexpected angles or altitudes, actually implemented navigation equipment, all that kind of stuff is just giving a pilot who is willing to train with the systems an advantage over the f15 no type of armament can mitigate, except gimbal mounted railguns or something like that.

 

You're not firing AIM-120s radar off. AIM-120D and APG-63v3 might be able to do that, but not a C5 with older radars.

 

Besides datalink and the enhanced TSD-style pages, there ought to be quite a few similarities, radar wise. The Eagle' radar underperforms, so if the Hornet's is done right they'll have some performance similarities. The Hornet should have much better functionality in some regards (e.g. AACQ modes) than what we currently have. That just might be a huge advantage for public PVP/air quake stuff.

 

In a blunt headon engagement a f15 might have a slight advantage, but nothing that cant be overcome by tactics.

 

Aaaand this is the best point you could bring up. The Hornet will enable tactics for one side and force the other to use better tactics. That is the biggest thing with the Hornet and air to air, IMO. Make A/A Great Again! :megalol:

[microvax]

IMO ASM is only more work while you learn it. Anything beyond that it'll be second nature and at that point it doesn't matter from operation perspective. On the other hand it's a massive advantage when it comes to available tools if you have the full system behind' date=' like you said.[/quote']

 

Ohh yes, I could not agree more, but there is people who disagree with that statement, so I do not believe in the f15 dieing in MP for a long way.

 

 

I mean I am into DCS for roughly 1.2 years now. I have flown the shark gazelle and Mirage extensively. I simply find it very disorientating not to be able to punch in navigation information etc.. F10 works but its just not the same thing as quickly throwing up 3 reference points on the HSI at the corner of your FOV, not even speaking about radar referenced waypoints or waypoint relative bra calls via the TDC.

 

I am just sitting here waiting for the F18/F14 for A2A, since imho the performance increase in armament on the f15 and Su27 is simply not worth it for the time left until f18 or f14 hit experience wise compared to the Baguette launcher.

 

Main question I have floating around in my head is, will f18 be released with new moar OP aim120 variant or not. The timeframe of the f18 we get would justify it. Gameplay wise there is no justification, so yeah. Will be interesting to see what happens on that front.

[Sweep]

We supposedly have the AIM-120C5 ingame, FWIW. Doesn't get much more modern than that.

 

AIM-120C6 wasn't much IIRC, C7 was something like a new seeker, maybe? That was 2005-2007, I believe. So probably within timeframe.

 

But do you want another NerfRAAM, that is the question. :D

 

Edit: You might not get a new AMRAAM, but the Hornet definitely could use AIM-7P2s IRL. Those things sound pretty sexy from all I've read...

 

And yeah, the Eagle's nav system is pretty basic in-game. Hoping BST's update in December '16 ("we will continue on an abandoned project" or something like that) was about the Eagle and ASM! That'd be so nice......TSD, a decent radar...Okay I'm done, back to reality.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Sweep
lol

[microvax]

I think the F-15C will remain relevant against the Typhoon, definitely. It's just going to make you work that much harder to win. Like a Flanker, almost, but a bit different. WVR will be exceptionally tough for the Eagle with good pilots on both sides.

 

A proper Eagle would fix some things, but performance wise...Good luck. I think the Typhoon's only performance problem is very slow speed/high Alpha stuff. Hornet/Eagle guys should love fighting it slow. Otherwise, it goes high, it goes fast, it gets fast fast. I think VEAO figured out all that first time crap with module making, so it should be very interesting to fight.

 

 

 

Slightly better acceleration is an understatement when you throw in payloads, I think.

 

 

 

It's not that drastic. It's a ~3 year difference between AIM-9X/JHMCS and our Eagle, roughly. R-74s are, AFAIK, pre-IOC (if that...). Interesting comparison for sure. :P

 

 

You're not firing AIM-120s radar off. AIM-120D and APG-63v3 might be able to do that, but not a C5 with older radars.

 

Besides datalink and the enhanced TSD-style pages, there ought to be quite a few similarities, radar wise. The Eagle' radar underperforms, so if the Hornet's is done right they'll have some performance similarities. The Hornet should have much better functionality in some regards (e.g. AACQ modes) than what we currently have. That just might be a huge advantage for public PVP/air quake stuff.

 

 

 

Aaaand this is the best point you could bring up. The Hornet will enable tactics for one side and force the other to use better tactics. That is the biggest thing with the Hornet and air to air, IMO. Make A/A Great Again! :megalol:

 

With VEAO I hope all the best but the p40 state looks like there has not been the "figured it out by now" state one would wish.

 

With F15 vs f18 accel the main concern is how fuel load looks at the time of engagement and how drag compares. The thrust to weight ratio is not that far off, so it will probably come down to drag, which I again compared do not estimate that massively disfavouring the F18. I mean the Mirage2000 has worse accel in game then f15c, and by the pure performance numbers that difference should be quite a bit larger then the to be expected f15 vs f18 difference. But you are kinda right, its down to how it pans out in DCS. Missile performance hint hint. :D

 

Yeah the comparison is a bit exagerated maybe. :P

 

I mean we get a pretty dope APG73 radar, apart from that I am mainly basing the assumption of things people [TM] who flew stuff [TM] said [TM]. So no sources, no hard data, lots of haze.

Even if not, radar on TWS'd until $aim120 is pitbull should be stealth enough to make engagement via datalink until firing pretty noice.

 

Yeah will be interesting if the APG73 has the same underperforming tendency like the other radars in game or if that changes. F14 will also be very interesting subject considering the tweakability of its settings by the RIO.

[frixon28]

So do you all lthink the Eagle should get JHMCS because the Hornet does?

[Sweep]

Yeah will be interesting if the APG73 has the same underperforming tendency like the other radars in game or if that changes. F14 will also be very interesting subject considering the tweakability of its settings by the RIO.

 

Yup. Tomcat's an interesting case for sure.

 

There's a very easy solution to the APG-63 range stuff, btw. Increase the power or gain (I forget which)in the definitions and you can get a properly performing radar in that regard. Obviously, you're still missing modes and NCTR effective range (still 25nmi hardcoded). Detecting and tracking a tanker at 160nmi is fun.

 

So do you all lthink the Eagle should get JHMCS because the Hornet does?

 

Personally, not yet...We need a core fire control suite that works well. Then add all the goodies in if you'd like. :D

[Kev2go]

It's not an unreasonable request then. Though I imagine it would cause an uproar from the usual suspects who push for "balance" between the NATO and OPFOR aircraft in the current multiplayer environment.

 

i have a feeling ED might keep the FC3 eagle as is, and perhaps instead we will see a JMHCS, aim9x, and functioning link 16 on a Full fidelty release of the Eagle. obviously no current news of a eagle in the works atm but it still is on ED's roadmap to creat full fidelity versions of Fc3 aircraft, if i recall there are videos of FC3 aircraft that have cockpit switch anmiations working, SO that leaves mostly coding work to be done.

 

id suspect it something of a marekting decision, you want a more modern eagle, buy the real deal ;)

[Kev2go]

I predict there will be 2 server scenarios:

 

1) EF banned, people fly their normal stuff

 

2) EF not banned, everyone flies the EF. This seems rather pointless.

 

I cannot comprehend the point of releasing such a module to the game at this point. It's like the P-51 where it will have no opponent for the next 5 years after it's release.

 

this is the problem past a certain point there jsut isnt balance.

 

It be similar story with the F22 raptor. if we had a F22 module everyone would want to fly that and that would wreck everything including even 4.5 gen aircraft like the EF Typhoon.

 

in this case there is no foreign equivalent to the F22 in service yet. T50 pak fa and the J20 are still prototypes.

[Beamscanner]

Whatever route ED goes, they should make sure to specify which block/flight/model/year for their aircraft (which they have been doing). Other than that, I do hope we get an F-15 from beyond the 70s.. Though I highly doubt we'll get an AESA radar anytime soon, I do think that ED can implement missing features into the current APG-63 (ECCM techniques, ECM Ranging, RF Sniffing, TWS angle on jam, Manual Gain Control, etc.)

 

Also, anyone worried about balancing in DCS should you should go fly an arcade game. The majority of us enjoy the simulation, and some of us are tired of the spoon feed "AAA" "games" on the market.

 

Some countries build better weapons/sensors/aircraft than others.. Deal with it. I hope ED brings all of the best systems from every nation around the world. Here's to hoping the R-27P/EP makes it someday.

[frixon28]

i have a feeling ED might keep the FC3 eagle as is, and perhaps instead we will see a JMHCS, aim9x, and functioning link 16 on a Full fidelty release of the Eagle. obviously no current news of a eagle in the works atm )

 

Yah that is possible, so maybe years from now we could have an air superiority fighter able to fight as well in air to air. I am suggesting just slapping the JHMCS (that are/did) make for the Hornet onto the F15C at or near the release of the Hornet for balance

 

Edit: Also why are we talking about the Eurofighter, thats years away and comparing a fighter that entered service in 1975 and what 2004? Geesh might as well compare the Raptor cause the F22 will be in the game eventually.

Edited April 12, 2017 by frixon28

[pr1malr8ge]

 

With F15 vs f18 accel the main concern is how fuel load looks at the time of engagement and how drag compares. The thrust to weight ratio is not that far off, so it will probably come down to drag, which I again compared do not estimate that massively disfavouring the F18. I mean the Mirage2000 has worse accel in game then f15c, and by the pure performance numbers that difference should be quite a bit larger then the to be expected f15 vs f18 difference.

 

I work with an Ex Bug avionics/WCS guy and had talked to him about the performance of the bug.. He has said that during tiger cruises [when vip/family go along for a day] that during airshows that the f14 can be close to sea level/ Level flight and in visual and hit SuperSonic with ease. The f18 must do it in a dive from in the same distance. So Unfortunately I do not have Fex numbers to actually calculate the f18 vs f15. if what my co-worker says is true I don't see any reason to not be able to speculate that the accell of the f15 is better then that of the f14 and much better then the f18. so It should be disfavoring the f18 greatly in that regards. There should be no ability for the f18 [unless its bingo and joker] to be able to tail chase an f15[and its heavy]. in bfm flying the f15 vs everything sept maybe a EF or f22 Go vertical if the bandit isn't killed in the first 360*, blow out exit and leave the bandit in your dust.

[Kev2go]

I keep hearing the F18 has short legs. yes, when compared to an F14 or F15, but on paper it has holds more fuel than the F16 and is noted to have a bit longer combat radius, so it doesnt sound bad at all.

 

 

Still much better than Mig21's & F5's range so i wont be complaining