Dogs of War Server

[Sceptre]

You know, I'm starting to think that maybe I *don't* like the current Dora-Mustang balance, after all. At least, the sim doesn't actually support them in a way that balances them.

 

See, thing is, while very technically impressive and immersive, the map has a fatal flaw: by making scoring based primarily on ground attack, it FORCES you to low altitude. Sure, the Mustang pilots could go high, but then the Doras would just strafe everything, and game over.

 

Unfortunately, I've found fighting Dora players is, frankly, BORING. The setup brings out the worst in them: the flak, while cool and perhaps historical (though in that kind of density, at every singleton in the sky?), is a beacon that there is an enemy in your airspace. Cool, it makes it easier to find a target... well, it makes it easier for the Dora pilots to find targets, anyway, because they don't ever bother to do anything but circle around their own airspace waiting for a Mustang to try ground attack.... and let's face it, if BOTH sides just hung out in their own airspace, that'd make a really boring game. So the Mustang players always go offensive and fly primarily ground attack, the Allied side almost always wins the match on points, but it's a bit unsatisfying because all of the air combat encounters seem to be "get completely surprised by a Dora you didn't even know was there, because they can see you from a zillion miles off due to the flak, but you can't see them for beans because the sighting distance in the game sucks, and they never come to the Allied side of the map".

 

So it always seems to come down to a choice between a) attack enemy ground vehicles and get bounced by the Doras because they can see you way better than they can see them, b) try to go A2A, and... still lose because you have to go find them over their own base and they can see you way before you can see them, or c) wait in your own territory hoping they'll come in where you have an advantage, then go land when you're bingo on either fuel, or patience. Not that I hold any of this against the Dora players, it's a smart way to play, but it's boring. I never, EVER see any form of dogfighting. It's all complete surprise BnZ... and since the surface targets force you down low, even if you DO manage to beat them in BFM, they all just kick the spurs and zip away at low altitude the instant they're in a disadvantageous position, and without higher boost, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, the Mustang can do to catch them.

 

...Unfortunately, I'm not sure I have much in the way of suggestions to fix it, though. Perhaps make the points needed for victory lower? Add AI bombers (Tu95 set to lower speed? Preferably at contrail altitude, so the players have warning) that will carpet bomb the airfields if not intercepted?

 

Bomb the ships for points if you need them, personally I never check the score, and just play DCS for the fun of flying.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

You know, I'm starting to think that maybe I *don't* like the current Dora-Mustang balance, after all. At least, the sim doesn't actually support them in a way that balances them.

 

See, thing is, while very technically impressive and immersive, the map has a fatal flaw: by making scoring based primarily on ground attack, it FORCES you to low altitude. Sure, the Mustang pilots could go high, but then the Doras would just strafe everything, and game over.

 

Unfortunately, I've found fighting Dora players is, frankly, BORING. The setup brings out the worst in them: the flak, while cool and perhaps historical (though in that kind of density, at every singleton in the sky?), is a beacon that there is an enemy in your airspace. Cool, it makes it easier to find a target... well, it makes it easier for the Dora pilots to find targets, anyway, because they don't ever bother to do anything but circle around their own airspace waiting for a Mustang to try ground attack.... and let's face it, if BOTH sides just hung out in their own airspace, that'd make a really boring game. So the Mustang players always go offensive and fly primarily ground attack, the Allied side almost always wins the match on points, but it's a bit unsatisfying because all of the air combat encounters seem to be "get completely surprised by a Dora you didn't even know was there, because they can see you from a zillion miles off due to the flak, but you can't see them for beans because the sighting distance in the game sucks, and they never come to the Allied side of the map".

 

So it always seems to come down to a choice between a) attack enemy ground vehicles and get bounced by the Doras because they can see you way better than they can see them, b) try to go A2A, and... still lose because you have to go find them over their own base and they can see you way before you can see them, or c) wait in your own territory hoping they'll come in where you have an advantage, then go land when you're bingo on either fuel, or patience. Not that I hold any of this against the Dora players, it's a smart way to play, but it's boring. I never, EVER see any form of dogfighting. It's all complete surprise BnZ... and since the surface targets force you down low, even if you DO manage to beat them in BFM, they all just kick the spurs and zip away at low altitude the instant they're in a disadvantageous position, and without higher boost, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, the Mustang can do to catch them.

 

...Unfortunately, I'm not sure I have much in the way of suggestions to fix it, though. Perhaps make the points needed for victory lower? Add AI bombers (Tu95 set to lower speed? Preferably at contrail altitude, so the players have warning) that will carpet bomb the airfields if not intercepted?

 

if you never ever see any kind of dogfighting, then i assume you are on the wrong server...

as for p51 pilots having to go towards the enemy airfield, because thats all what dora pilots do(flying around the airfield), i guess that has something to do with still many dora pilots struggeling to take off...i guess, this will not be the case at least not to that amount anymore in a few days/weeks once most of them feel confident with it.

if that was the case, that all dora pilots just stay at their airfield waiting for the p51s, then it shouldnt be a problem at all to strafe ground targets, destroy bridges and sink ships either...

but to say that all of them are behaving that way is just not true.whenever i am on the server(and for now i fly most of the time p51) i fight doras everywhere except the airfields,...there are plenty of them also in friendly territory where the flak is pointing towards them.

 

to have the point system like that, is caused by the fact, that dcs recognizes a player disconnecting or leaving its aircraft as a dead aircraft(same as getting killed)..therefore everytime a player either leaves the aircraft to spawn in another/new one, or if he just leaves the server, points will be given to the opposing side.thats why we have chosen to give only 1point/aircraft kill....

 

currently for winning the mission i see the p51s having an advantage, as the doras cant carry 6rockets and two bombs at a time.

 

a plane flying low on deck will be at a disadvantage thats true, but that goes for both sides.

[OutOnTheOP]

Bomb the ships for points if you need them, personally I never check the score, and just play DCS for the fun of flying.

 

That's the problem, though... it's not terribly satisfying. With no better options, that's exactly what I end up doing; I'd rather fight a dogfight, but it's impossible to find one- it's either getting surprised by a plane you can't see coming because the flak warning gives them a huge SA advantage, or they just run away and nothing you can do can ever catch them.

 

...but it gets a bit old carting rockets out to the ships, making one pass, RTB, rinse, repeat. The inland map on the DoW server (I don't recall the name, but the one NOT on the coast) is a bit friendlier, because for whatever reason, the Axis team seems more intent on raiding into the allied territory (or at least, they did when I first started), and the proximity of the Axis/ Allied target areas at Maysky/ Arik means if you get bounced attacking ground forces at Arik, you can drag the fight over to Maysky, lead your attacker into a flak trap, and use the flak bursts to spot him.

 

Actually, I think that's a good start: make the flak burst areas overlap a bit (a couple kilometers?) at the front lines on the coastal map, and maybe add one 23mm AAA at the ground attack areas; it'd make ground attack more challenging, and make baiting guys into flak traps more effective.

 

I suspect that access to the Teamspeak server would improve things vastly; a singleton ground attack force covered by a couple high cover aircraft would solve most of the surprise issues, I think.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

glad you like the other mission at least!;)

 

flak is overlapped in my two missions

 

sure, flying in teams, getting covered will always help.

 

i already approved your account on our site, so you have access to ts.

[OutOnTheOP]

if you never ever see any kind of dogfighting, then i assume you are on the wrong server...

as for p51 pilots having to go towards the enemy airfield, because thats all what dora pilots do(flying around the airfield), i guess that has something to do with still many dora pilots struggeling to take off...i guess, this will not be the case at least not to that amount anymore in a few days/weeks once most of them feel confident with it.

if that was the case, that all dora pilots just stay at their airfield waiting for the p51s, then it shouldnt be a problem at all to strafe ground targets, destroy bridges and sink ships either...

but to say that all of them are behaving that way is just not true.whenever i am on the server(and for now i fly most of the time p51) i fight doras everywhere except the airfields,...there are plenty of them also in friendly territory where the flak is pointing towards them.

 

to have the point system like that, is caused by the fact, that dcs recognizes a player disconnecting or leaving its aircraft as a dead aircraft(same as getting killed)..therefore everytime a player either leaves the aircraft to spawn in another/new one, or if he just leaves the server, points will be given to the opposing side.thats why we have chosen to give only 1point/aircraft kill....

 

currently for winning the mission i see the p51s having an advantage, as the doras cant carry 6rockets and two bombs at a time.

 

a plane flying low on deck will be at a disadvantage thats true, but that goes for both sides.

 

No, I agree, the Blue team consistently wins (or at least is well ahead when time runs out), but it would be nice to have some manner of design feature that prompted high-altitude fights (IE, some bombers of some kind), and it would be nice if the flak wasn't quite so one sided- it's a brilliant idea to use it to point players at enemies, but the problem is that the guy that *doesn't* have the flak working to his advantage is still stuck with the really terrible spotting distance inherent to the game.

 

Which means the player defending his side of the map can set up a good BnZ from a range where he's a single pixel (if that), and the other player can only spot the BnZ coming once it's too late; even if he's looking in exactly the right direction, he can only see the guy in the last couple kilometers, by which time the BnZ is probably already in his rear quarter, with a good 100+ mph overtake. Not much to do then but go defensive.

 

If there was a way to vastly improve spotting distance to even things up, that'd go a long, LONG way. Can contrail altitude be lowered to the deck? Aircraft trailing smoke (or contrails) are fairly easy to spot, and that also solves the "it's a single pixel, how do I tell which direction he's going and what attitude he's in?" problem.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

yes, as soon as we get bombers, we will implement them!(there is an awesome mod of a b17 model, and i hope we get that one earlier than the one of ED announced for next year)

 

flak is by no means one sided(two exact same zones covering the combat area)

if you see yourself constantly entering combat area and fly with the disadvantage of the flak pointing at you, try to circle the frontline,...you will very likely atract some fw190s, but they then will also be tracked by flak on your side of the frontline.

 

about spotting contacts itself...well its hard(althoug i have the impression its a tad bit better now since the latest patch).

getting contrails lower is i think impossible...

well have to wait for ED to improve on spotting of aircraft.(hope edge brings improvement)

Edited August 11, 2014 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[OutOnTheOP]

That's a shame... contrails would fix SO much.

 

Regarding the TS info, could you please PM it to me? I must be a bit dense; I've tried all three IPs and the only password I can find on your site and forum, and none seem to work. Either I have the wrong IP, wrong password, or I just don't know how to set up Teamspeak =\

[OutOnTheOP]

glad you like the other mission at least!;)

 

flak is overlapped in my two missions

 

sure, flying in teams, getting covered will always help.

 

i already approved your account on our site, so you have access to ts.

 

Oh, I like all the maps; they're certainly more impressive than anything I could manage. ...but players always find some exploits, and features always have unintended consequences. This is true even of games/ maps made by monolithic gaming corporations with dev teams in the hundreds and a year-long test cycle. I'm not trying to bust anyone's balls, just provide feedback on what I've observed

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

i didnt take your feedback in a negative way...constructive critizism is always welcome...

we already have an internal discussion on how to improve our missions, always watching that thread here...expect constant little adjustments.we will never be able to please everyone, but we will never give up trying to :)

[Friedric]

question can you do manual refeul rearm so you can choose your loadout not only the 500 KG bomb ? for the Dora ...

 

And if so how to do it .

 

thx

[SAM77]

No biggie but I bombed the Nalchik control tower and got nothing in terms of points.

 

Building destroyed came up twice. One for the building itself and another for the truck in front of it.

 

Maybe it takes more than 1 SC500 if so I want more Kaboom :)

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

mustang vs dora mission right?

in a dora?then we know about the bug thx

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

small update:

 

updated Dogs of WWII:

-Doras should now be credited with bombing bridges.

please test this whether its working as intended.

 

-airfields protected with heavier flak now.

[Merlin-27]

Unfortunately, I've found fighting Dora players is, frankly, BORING. The setup brings out the worst in them: the flak, while cool and perhaps historical (though in that kind of density, at every singleton in the sky?), is a beacon that there is an enemy in your airspace. Cool, it makes it easier to find a target... well, it makes it easier for the Dora pilots to find targets, anyway, because they don't ever bother to do anything but circle around their own airspace waiting for a Mustang to try ground attack.... and let's face it, if BOTH sides just hung out in their own airspace, that'd make a really boring game. So the Mustang players always go offensive and fly primarily ground attack, the Allied side almost always wins the match on points, but it's a bit unsatisfying because all of the air combat encounters seem to be "get completely surprised by a Dora you didn't even know was there, because they can see you from a zillion miles off due to the flak, but you can't see them for beans because the sighting distance in the game sucks, and they never come to the Allied side of the map".

 

Please realize the MP missions are a WIP at this point. Finding a good balance a few days after the introduction of an aircraft is no easy task.

 

To back up what David said, the flak tracks both coalitions, depending on where you fly. The fact that you are at a situational disadvantage in enemy territory shouldn't be a huge surprise. I'd imagine flying lone-wolf into enemy airspace wouldn't be too profitable in WWII either. Now, of course we want everyone to enjoy themselves on the DoW server but it will take time to find that sweet spot in terms of balance.

 

As far as typical red-side tactics on the server thus far, well it's hard to say there even is a "typical" anything at this point. You really can't expect too much from pilots of a plane that they have very little flight hours in. We have plenty of capable pilots who own the FW190 and if you continue to visit the server I'm sure you will encounter them. While flying on the server this weekend, I saw a continuous stream of blue base attacks which offered very little hope of a red side offensive effort. This situation, while allowed, makes things a bit difficult. I was continually tasked with defending our airspace and rarely had a chance to venture out. Like David said, we are discussing this internally to find a good solution and keep the hoards of P-51D pilots happy while also giving Dora pilots a chance to gain valuable MP flying time.

[NineLine]

I made it on TS to check my connection this weekend, but didnt get on the server.... I need atleast 6 more hours in the day... :)

[Merlin-27]

I made it on TS to check my connection this weekend, but didnt get on the server.... I need atleast 6 more hours in the day... :)

 

I heard you made a silent appearance, Sith. This confirms it :)

 

Look forward to your arrival... and your discovery of those 6 extra hours. I need them too!

[xcom]

Had an awesome flight in DOW server yesterday, the flak script by SiThSpAwN/Stonehouse is awesome! (http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2102182&postcount=12)

 

Here is a video of this awesome flight -

http://www.twitch.tv/morrtz/b/557100794#

[Charly_Owl]

Toudidoudidouuuuuu........ woan woan woannnn. :D

 

That western bit made me laugh so hard I had to mute my mike for a second.

[BitMaster]

Great Server !!!

 

I enjoyed every minute of it :)

[Merlin-27]

Had an awesome flight in DOW server yesterday, the flak script by SiThSpAwN/Stonehouse is awesome! (http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2102182&postcount=12)

 

Here is a video of this awesome flight -

http://www.twitch.tv/morrtz/b/557100794#

 

Good to see you, xcom. Looks like you guys had fun :)

[Charly_Owl]

Cool formation flying with Furious, Xcom, Chuck and a random dude!

 

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

[Schafseckel]

Currently there's such a major shortage of Dora pilots that I can't get any action.

I know it's kind of blasphemic, but perhaps both planes should temporarily be on both sides?

[Merlin-27]

Currently there's such a major shortage of Dora pilots that I can't get any action.

I know it's kind of blasphemic, but perhaps both planes should temporarily be on both sides?

 

How dare you speak those words! :) We are trying to figure out ways to resolve this without reverting to Mustang vs. Mustang fights. Hang in there!

[Charly_Owl]

Well, I fly the Dora most of the time to keep the game fun and balanced.

 

One tip I might have is to go on the ATAG forums and make some kind of Dora promo post. German squadrons will flock to DoW, believe me.