Mustang - Losing a Wing

[Foul Ole Ron]

Haven't seen this posted elsewhere but I hadn't played combat in the Mustang for a while until recently and I've noticed that the Mustang loses a wing even before the official 8g structural limit (which even itself would definitely have had some margin built into it).

 

Has something been changed recently? I've played a few fights yesterday and today and lost a wing in nearly half of them without once hitting the 8g limit at any point during the fight. I thought it might be down to cumulative g force but in one 9 min fight I was mostly pulling just over 5g and then the wing came off right before 7g. I hadn't been hit at all during that fight either.

 

Few screens from Tacview showing the g forces reached during each fight which ultimately ended in wing loss:

 

 

 

[Kwiatek]

Limit load factor at 8 000 lbs is + 8/ -4 G. But ultimate load factor should be higher ab 1.3 - 1.5 more then load limit factor.

 

So at 8 000 lbs P-51 should stand without total airframe destruction about 10 G. At least up to 8 G P-51 should not get any damage.

[Foul Ole Ron]

Without knowing more about how the code works it looks like there's a bug to me and I thought that the wing was more a bit more resistant to high loads in earlier builds. The first Tacview screen I posted is the weirdest. A series of just over 5g maneuvers followed by a series of just over 4g maneuvers and then the wing broke clean off at 6.9g. That really shouldn't happen.

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

ive noticed this myself as well...i now seem to lose wings again...havent done that for a long time...

[Solty]

Ineed. Even Dora that I was chassing asked me. "What happened there". He was suprised that I lost a wing.

 

I've read the same thing. That 8G/-4G is the limit... but only problems with wing snaping that real pilots encountered was when P-51D5 was introduced with additional 2 HMGs and the wing was not strenghtened to withstand it.(which was fixed in later models)

 

I don't know much about wing integrity in airplanes... but I don't think it should happen... so easily anyawy. All you have to do is to be around 600kph and pull a little bit too much. No sound, no buffeting... just wing flies away.:noexpression: As your images show you should not have lost a wing in any given time... btw cool utilty, what is it called? :)

 

As I have seen in videos and from my own experience in the game. It seems that the pilot can take G's too easily. 5G was hard for an average pilot, beeing on verge of blacking out. That is why 109 was "pleasant" for the pilot. It got stiff enough to not give the ability to pull more than 5G at high speed. While P-51 should be much more agille at high speed and pilot should have the G suit, he should not be able to take 8Gs easily.

:huh:Or should he? I assume that during WW2 pilots did not have any additional training on that matter.

 

To me in a Fw190 you should be able to take sustained 5G without blacking out and in P-51 it should be around 7G. To simulate an average pilot + american G suit that was widely available. Right now it feels that your pilot can take sustained 8G without problems.(or maybe it is just my imagination):pilotfly:

 

PS. Is there any redout in the game? I pushed some -Gs and never had my screen go red.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Solty

[Foul Ole Ron]

Sithspawn would it be possible for ED or testers to see if something has changed recently which might have lowered the Mustang's wing tolerance for g loads? At the moment following a 190 through a series of climbs and dives can be a bit of a lottery as to whether you keep your wing or not even if you make sure not to breach 8g while the 190 doesn't seem affected by this at all.

[Solty]

Sithspawn would it be possible for ED or testers to see if something has changed recently which might have lowered the Mustang's wing tolerance for g loads? At the moment following a 190 through a series of climbs and dives can be a bit of a lottery as to whether you keep your wing or not even if you make sure not to breach 8g while the 190 doesn't seem affected by this at all.

Inb4 "Germun is bettur, fly your piece of s**** freedumb fighta" Oh... wait it is not Il2/WT forum... :D Yay DCS... but yeah, if testers took a look at it, it would be awesome.

[Yo-Yo]

Ineed. Even Dora that I was chassing asked me. "What happened there". He was suprised that I lost a wing.

 

I've read the same thing. That 8G/-4G is the limit... but only problems with wing snaping that real pilots encountered was when P-51D5 was introduced with additional 2 HMGs and the wing was not strenghtened to withstand it.(which was fixed in later models)

 

I don't know much about wing integrity in airplanes... but I don't think it should happen... so easily. All you have to do is to be around 600kph and pull a little bit too much. No sound, no buffeting... just wing flies away.:noexpression: As your images show you should not have lost a wing in any given time... btw cool utilty, what is it called? :)

 

As I have seen in videos and from my own experience in the game. It seems that the pilot can take G's too easily. 5G was hard for an average pilot, beeing on verge of blacking out. That is why 109 was "pleasant" for the pilot. It got stiff enough to not give the ability to pull more than 5G at high speed. While P-51 should be much more agille at high speed and pilot should have the G suit, he should not be able to take 8Gs easily.

:huh:Or should he? I assume that during WW2 pilots did not have any additional training on that matter.

 

To me in a Fw190 you should be able to take sustained 5G without blacking out and in P-51 it should be around 7G. To simulate an average pilot + american G suit that was widely available. Right now it feels that your pilot can take sustained 8G without problems.(or maybe it is just my imagination):pilotfly:

 

PS. Is there any redout in the game? I pushed some -Gs and never had my screen go red.

 

Please, do not mix short-time and long-time G-loads. Climb a table then jump down... congratulations - you withstood 8-9g! There is no problem to withstand 8-9 g (and even more!) for couple of seconds, for example, in aerobatics plane. Having 4-5g for a time more than 4-5 s will lead to blackout and GLOC if you have now g-suit and are not performing AGSM.

[Yo-Yo]

Without knowing more about how the code works it looks like there's a bug to me and I thought that the wing was more a bit more resistant to high loads in earlier builds. The first Tacview screen I posted is the weirdest. A series of just over 5g maneuvers followed by a series of just over 4g maneuvers and then the wing broke clean off at 6.9g. That really shouldn't happen.

 

Did you have hits in your plane?

What was the GW of the plane? Please keep in mind that maximum safe g (not failure!) will be 8000/weight*8 for the Mustang.

[Solty]

Please, do not mix short-time and long-time G-loads. Climb a table then jump down... congratulations - you withstood 8-9g! There is no problem to withstand 8-9 g (and even more!) for couple of seconds, for example, in aerobatics plane. Having 4-5g for a time more than 4-5 s will lead to blackout and GLOC if you have now g-suit and are not performing AGSM.

Please read what I said:

To me in a Fw190 you should be able to take sustained 5G without blacking out and in P-51 it should be around 7G. To simulate an average pilot + american G suit that was widely available. Right now it feels that your pilot can take sustained 8G without problems.(or maybe it is just my imagination)

 

PS. Is there any redout in the game? I pushed some -Gs and never had my screen go red.

 

That is why I am talking about sustained G's. I am going for a long pull-up(high speed) and sometimes... sometimes there is a greyout. I am not too knowledgable, but I do understand that principle. I am just saying that I find my plane loose wings more often than my pilot blackout. Actually... I have never blacked out in the P-51, but I lost my wing around 20+ times now. (without damage too, I was chasing the victim)

Edited August 13, 2014 by Solty

[Kwiatek]

Yo-Yo what about safetly factor 1.3 - 1.5? If +8/-4 G is maximum load factor for P-51 8000 lbs GW so it shouldn't broke before at least 10 G ( 1.5 - 12 G).

 

In DCS P-51 broke much earlier.

[159th_Viper]

 

In DCS P-51 broke much earlier.

 

That's what Yo-Yo said: 10G for one or two seconds is probably better than 7G's for five seconds. According to those Tacview pics it seems that G's were well above 7 for a good few seconds explaining wing-loss.

 

Then again, a track would be perfect as tacview pics are of little help troubleshooting.

[Solty]

Changes nothing as 51 should be able to withstand 8Gs period and it wasn't even full 7G. It was 6.9 as OP said.

[Foul Ole Ron]

Did you have hits in your plane?

What was the GW of the plane? Please keep in mind that maximum safe g (not failure!) will be 8000/weight*8 for the Mustang.

 

I'll have to check when I get home later. It's a 1v1 mission I setup and think I have the Mustang set up with 70% fuel and. 50 cal ammo only. In the first Tacview screen there were no hits on the plane. A series of just over 5g maneuvers followed by a series of 4g maneuvers and then the wing came off at 6.9g. But I'll check the approx weight I would have had later. I might have modified a Sabre vs Mig scenario and accidentally left the fuel at 100% which would go some way towards explaining things.

[Foul Ole Ron]

That's what Yo-Yo said: 10G for one or two seconds is probably better than 7G's for five seconds. According to those Tacview pics it seems that G's were well above 7 for a good few seconds explaining wing-loss.

 

Then again, a track would be perfect as tacview pics are of little help troubleshooting.

 

The first screen I never hit 7g at any point during the fight. But I need to double check the GW later this evening. I'll keep tracks next time it happens too.

[159th_Viper]

The first screen I never hit 7g at any point during the fight.

 

Why does the graph indicate that you were upwards of 5G, peaking at 9G, for the last 15 seconds or so? Or am I completely misreading it?

[Foul Ole Ron]

It peaked at 6.9g. Each horizontal line is 1g and it's 2 lines above 5g where the final catastrophic damage results. I'll post the acmi file later so can see the exact times and G forces pulled when you play it back in Tacview.

[Yo-Yo]

Please read what I said:

 

That is why I am talking about sustained G's. I am going for a long pull-up(high speed) and sometimes... sometimes there is a greyout. I am not too knowledgable, but I do understand that principle. I am just saying that I find my plane loose wings more often than my pilot blackout. Actually... I have never blacked out in the P-51, but I lost my wing around 20+ times now. (without damage too, I was chasing the victim)

 

For sure, if you pull 12 g instanteniously you will rip wings off and you will not encounter any blackout. If you read something about GLOC you would find that the reason is hydrostatic but there is 3-4 s period when you eyes and brain spend their own stores of O2.

[Paradox]

For sure, if you pull 12 g instanteniously you will rip wings off and you will not encounter any blackout. If you read something about GLOC you would find that the reason is hydrostatic but there is 3-4 s period when you eyes and brain spend their own stores of O2.

 

"My pilot" in the DCS F-86 doesn't seem to have that. Must be a genetic thing.

[airdoc]

For sure, if you pull 12 g instanteniously you will rip wings off and you will not encounter any blackout. If you read something about GLOC you would find that the reason is hydrostatic but there is 3-4 s period when you eyes and brain spend their own stores of O2.

 

Yo-Yo sniped it.

This can easily happen at very high speeds (i.e. over 400mph) with a sudden elevator deflection, before GLOC sets in. The wing break serves to move the aircraft from very high g's instantly to almost 1g, thus the pilot never has the time to achieve GLOC.

I would also like to add that one can lose a wing even without many g's when the aircraft's speed is very high. Go with the mustang over 505 mph and even if you fly straight you can lose a wing.

[Solty]

I still can't believe that an average person (not an athlete) can pull sudden 12Gs at high speed without hydraulicly boosted control surfaces, which I might add P-51D or Fw190D9 do not have. In F-86, F-15... sure. P-51? Realy? I believe that this is not our pilot, right?: http://www.phootoscelebrities.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/arnold-schwarzenegger-pictures.jpg

 

It is completely different to any other sim that I have played. Without calibrating the joystick I can rip my wings off without even pulling more than half of my stick.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Solty

[airdoc]

I still can't believe that an average person (not an athlete) can pull sudden 12Gs at high speed without hydraulicly boosted control surfaces, which I might add P-51D or Fw190D9 do not have. In F-86, F-15... sure. P-51? Realy? I believe that this is not our pilot, right?: http://www.phootoscelebrities.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/arnold-schwarzenegger-pictures.jpg

 

It is completely different to any other sim that I have played. Without calibrating the joystick I can rip my wings off without even pulling more than half of my stick.

 

 

In the P51, if i 'm not mistaken (some more knowledgeable guys please correct me here), the force required to pull the stick actually becomes less after a certain speed.

 

As for stick distance travel, DCS is pretty accurate. It's just that all the other sims did not model it correctly.

:)

 

EDIT : also bear in mind that the real stick is quite more elongated than the joystick most of us have, and thus makes it easier to apply force and is more accurate.

Edited August 13, 2014 by airdoc

[Solty]

In the P51, if i 'm not mistaken (some more knowledgeable guys please correct me here), the force required to pull the stick actually becomes less after a certain speed.

 

As for stick distance travel, DCS is pretty accurate. It's just that all the other sims did not model it correctly.

 

EDIT : also bear in mind that the real stick is quite more elongated than the joystick most of us have, and thus makes it easier to apply force and is more accurate.

Yes... YoYo already told me about that factor in an other thread. I am devoted to my P-51... love this plane. But there is so much said about it that it is hard to see which is propaganda and which is pure facts.

 

If you would look at other Sims and flight forums you would see that people see P-51 as a flying propaganda of awesomness that is just, how one of the Alpha testers of other sim said," Honda civic of the sky". Implying that its maneuvrablity is below average.

Some mosquito pilot said that P-51 is less agile than the mosquito itself...

 

I know that it tries to translate the long stick lenght into a short stick... but...ehh. Never mind. I just find it wierd that is all.

 

But... if that is a thing with a mustang... does dora feel different with stick forces and actualy stiffens after reaching some speeds? (I know that it won't be like 109 as it has an awesome elevator... but just gets harder to pull... a little?)

 

EDIT: ...after beeing told so many times that I am a stupid allied fanboy and the 51 is "freedumb" fighter... I can't have rest when I hear something that "positive" about a 51.

 

With proper joystick setting the thing is controlable, but you won't hear approval from other simmers for this FM.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Solty

[BitMaster]

Yeah, one or the other wing half got lost recently... heck, I never managed to achieve this before.

 

One was in a Dora Doggy, I first didn't know what happened, in F2 view I saw me ripped baby :(

 

Now I get it, it happened in a high G upward Splitt S like curve about ⅓ into the climb ( like where the high G start to occur ) when I suddenly started spinng around my fuselage axle, oooops WING GONE.. I checked my six again in F2... no bandit ... not one close... so I assumed me pulling too hard but I just pulled enough to follow the Dora UPWARD where she went.

 

It can't be that from level flight, chasing a Dora at mid speed at max ( due to cornering and YoYo's etc.. ) that when you then pull just enough to fly the same curve/radiant/G-Load as the Dora your wing suddenly decides to dismiss itself ..:(

 

For now, it adds some Salt & Pepper to the Dogfights.

 

I am sure ED will look at it and fine tune it if needed :)

 

Bit

[BitMaster]

Been watching a YT vid about P-47 in WWII last night and one of the topics was Pilot's age and G-Loads...as described and narrated by authentic WWII Veterans flying P-47's.....:

 

Pilots of WWII and G-Loads. It had a simple anatomic reason why mostly YOUNG men between 18-15 flew fighters. Their bodies could resist the G-Loads better than bodies aged 25+.

They knew little about G-Forces at that time compared to today's knowledge.

 

 

What I also learned, heck..you never stop learning, is that the RWR in the P-47 ( and I assume P-51 too ) was to warn the Pilots about homing in german radar guided Flaks.

Pretty much a useless toy as long as we don't have that german style WWII radar guided Flak system modeled in DCS as from what I understand.