Anyone has p51 online dogfight vs Dora?

[secret1962]

Yeah things disappear in the current engine and I hope it'll be fixed SOMEDAY. You just lose them even if you know they are THERE.

[Altflieger]

Good, it's not just me then! I've noticed that when the ai reappears he's always directly behind me.... :)

[Pandacat]

Went for a couple flights tonight on DoW:

 

Did one (first) sortie in Dora and scored 2 kills before I was damaged and had to RTB.

 

Once the P-51 slots were open I jumped right in. Managed to down one Dora, other than that got shot down every single time I was out there in a Mustang. Once I forgot to (un)load 25% fuel and flipped right over in a low level turn. Like in IL21946 them Doras always fly in pairs.

 

The night ended for me with a 30000ft chase with a couple of Stangs and Doras. Boy does high combat differ from old IL2. Like walking on eggs.

 

Good times ahead! :thumbup:

 

It always sounds like P51 slots are pretty tight. There are more stang fliers than D9? I thought P51s has an edge over D9 at 30k?

[[DBS]TH0R]

It always sounds like P51 slots are pretty tight. There are more stang fliers than D9? I thought P51s has an edge over D9 at 30k?

 

Based on my single venture to DoW server last night I saw many more P51 pilots than D9. That may be either due to more pilots with D9 keys or due to familiarization with the P51.

 

The combat above 20000 is much slower than down low. I presume this is where the gyro sights shine.

 

All I know is that Dora is just like in old IL2 very forgiving and easy to fly. Less engine management enables you to focus on combat and things going around you. Though, after spending some time with P51 in combat (have only fought the AI before) that gap becomes minimal.

 

One more thing - I was able to out turn a couple of Doras down low. But as soon as you do that either his buddy dives on you and thats the end of it, or he runs away as P51 can not match the acceleration.

[Pandacat]

I see. Now I just want to see some online dogfights from P51 perspective. Haha, just can't wait.

[MiloMorai]

One more thing - I was able to out turn a couple of Doras down low. But as soon as you do that either his buddy dives on you and thats the end of it, or he runs away as P51 can not match the acceleration.

That is what wingmen are for. Where was your wingman?

 

That is what happens with an early '44 a/c vs very late '44 a/c.

[[DBS]TH0R]

That is what wingmen are for. Where was your wingman?

 

That is what happens with an early '44 a/c vs very late '44 a/c.

 

On holiday. All pilots from my squad who fly DCS. :)

 

Yeah, would be interesting to match Dora with 75" Mustang.

[OutOnTheOP]

One more thing - I was able to out turn a couple of Doras down low. But as soon as you do that either his buddy dives on you and thats the end of it, or he runs away as P51 can not match the acceleration.

 

I find this endlessly irritating. The FW190D9 should have greater acceleration than the Mustang at low altitudes, but all the sources I've seen indicate it should have better top-end speed, even at sea level, even with wing racks and the low 67" boost levels. Yet I can spend 10 minutes at 1,000 feet, chasing a Dora, with my throttle full open, ball centered and no slip, only 30 gallons in my tanks, half load of ammo, no wing racks, the Dora making minor jinks and maneuvers, while I fly completely straight with (in theory) no energy loss... and he still just easily pulls away. Even when I have greater initial speed by a good 50 mph.

 

The .50s are currently too weak to get a fast kill, any half competent pilot will make it tough to get many hits on him quickly, and if they just open up the throttle and extend, there's nothing you can do. It's not a lot of fun playing when, any time you "win" the dogfight (get in a position of advantage), they just pack up and go home.

[Stonehouse]

On the sighting side of things and for whatever it's worth, I found some improvements were possible by using the "More visibility" mod and SweetFX to increase sharpening slightly. Against the sky or if the ground colour is pale enough (eg mountains) or clouds I find I can now see contacts much further away than before although I still have to scan for them carefully.

[gavagai]

It's not a lot of fun playing when, any time you "win" the dogfight (get in a position of advantage), they just pack up and go home.

 

If I can put this in the most diplomatic way possible: you haven't "won" with a mere position advantage; you need the energy state to go along with it. Extending away is the 190's best tactical choice if it cannot kill the P-51 in the first few attacks. Until the invention of the infrared missile, the evolution of the fighter was to become faster, heavier, more heavily armed, and less maneuverable in the horizontal axis. These performance traits do not win prolonged dogfights, but they save on aircraft and pilots.

[MiloMorai]

It's not a lot of fun playing when, any time you "win" the dogfight (get in a position of advantage), they just pack up and go home.

 

Well, IRL that what was done. It was not a game and having fun.

[OutOnTheOP]

If I can put this in the most diplomatic way possible: you haven't "won" with a mere position advantage; you need the energy state to go along with it. Extending away is the 190's best tactical choice if it cannot kill the P-51 in the first few attacks. Until the invention of the infrared missile, the evolution of the fighter was to become faster, heavier, more heavily armed, and less maneuverable in the horizontal axis. These performance traits do not win prolonged dogfights, but they save on aircraft and pilots.

 

As realistic as DCS may be, it IS still a game. The primary goal is to be fun. If they had to bend reality to make it less frustrating, I'd agree, they shouldn't. But they have such an easy option (44-1 fuel!) to keep things historical, but even things out a bit. After all, they gave the Dora the EZ42 to be "fair", even though very few Doras had it, so why not give the Mustang the fuel?

 

I understand positional and energy state. I'm not talking about when they BnZ someone and extend straight out with an energy advantage, but rather when the Dora pilot comes in for an attack, get spotted, makes the mistake of trying to push the attack, engages in a turning fight, and ends up co-altitude and co-speed with the Mustang: at that point, when they belatedly realize "oh, hey, I really shouldn't have done that", they STILL have an out, because they can just open the throttle and drive off.

[Foul Ole Ron]

Well when ED made the Mustang originally I think they either weren't thinking ahead to where things would lead or hadn't decided on the future opponent models. With the late '44 Dora out now and the even later 109 K-4 coming it's unfortunate that we're stuck with an early '44 Mustang for the moment. I'd hope that ED will take the time at some point to revise the Mustang to 72" so we have the relevant historic match-up.

 

Hopefully the fact that the USAF & RAF were both using 150 grade fuel during this time period will mean that the Spit IX and P47 will have their historical boost levels as well.

[gavagai]

I thought the whole fuel thing was settled? 100/130 instead of 150 octane for the Allies, and B4 instead of C3 for the Luftwaffe?

[MegOhm_SD]

+1

 

There's obviously a trick to this that I'm missing cos all I seem to do is take off and spend the entire MP mission looking for people and not doing very well at all.

 

If you could score points for taking no damage, putting lots of miles on the airframe and landing safely at the end of every round, I'd win hands down!

 

After an hour or so of what seems like aimless searching, as if by magic an enemy suddenly appears from out of nowhere glues himself 5 feet off my tail and puts me down in a single burst before I know what happened.

 

I don't like to use the crutch known as labels but I fear that's where I'm going to end up. I really can't see a soul when I'm flying about during combat. I've mistaken specs of dust on the screen as the enemy before now. I jest not.

 

So what's the deal with labels? Are they set forcefully by the server you connect to or can I just enable them and if so, how?

 

There's no way I can spot fast moving pixels, often against the dark backdrop of the ground. Some people must have super awesome eyesight or a massive magnifier planted in front of their monitors to dogfight against what appears on my screen as full stops.

 

I just hope that Edge gives us a decent visual edge when it's released. :megalol::pilotfly:

I have been flying DOW server and find Bandits frequently...some encounters I win, some I lose...there are a lot of strategies to find bandits...one is to get a lot of altitude and fly a circular path over a likely zone. Watch for flak, AAA or tracers from an ongoing dogfight. You can usually pick up the bogie and keep him in sight as you position yourself for an attack. I don't feel bad about using zoom when I need to track a target. It is easy to lose them against the terrain. I use terrain mods and bogies are very difficult to see against the enhanced colors and apparent ground texture. This is where zoom helps. But way too much fun in DOW. I see them as the up coming premier WWII server, well it already is. Great job Merlin and all. Really like what you guys have done.

 

I don't use labels myself but if by chance I find myself in a server with Labels on... they are minimized with a modification to the labels.lua file. Original labels clutter is just way too much. Simple to set up in JSGME to re-apply post patch.

 

You can modify the file like so:

 

To change the labels in game you need to modify the labels.lua found in the Config/view folder

 

You can use most characters found on your keyboard if you want custom type stuff, some used the "*" for ground targets and the "|" for weapons... use the "~" for air targets. I just used the * for everything. It is unobtrusive, looks like a small dot and pretty much disappears when you get close. If you use labels, this is a good alternative.

 

AirFormat = {}

AirFormat[10] = "*"

AirFormat[5000] = "*"

AirFormat[10000] = "*"

AirFormat[20000] = "*"

AirFormat[30000] = "*"

 

GroundFormat = {}

GroundFormat[5000] = "*"

GroundFormat[10000] = "*"

GroundFormat[20000] = "*"

 

NavyFormat = {}

NavyFormat[10000] = "*"

NavyFormat[20000] = "*"

NavyFormat[40000] = "*"

 

WeaponFormat = {}

WeaponFormat[5000] = "*"

WeaponFormat[10000] = "*"

WeaponFormat[20000] = "*"

Edited August 17, 2014 by MegOhm_SD

[Foul Ole Ron]

I thought the whole fuel thing was settled? 100/130 instead of 150 octane for the Allies, and B4 instead of C3 for the Luftwaffe?

 

Kind of hope that isn't the case. The correct historical opponent of the FW190 D-9 with MW50 giving 2100 PS is a 72" Mustang.

[otto]

Kind of hope that isn't the case. The correct historical opponent of the FW190 D-9 with MW50 giving 2100 PS is a 72" Mustang.

 

Why are people making such a big deal about the 1945 d9. The me262 was also the correct historical opponent for the p51 and had far better performance than a 1945 d9.

 

I bet the same people that are asking for historical accuracy are going to ask for the 262 again and again to be available in Mp once it's released by ed.

[Foul Ole Ron]

I've no problem with the 262. That was around during that timeframe so it should be there. Just think that if you're going to release a late '44 / early '45 variant of both the 109 and the 190 that logically you should match these up with their historically accurate opponent i.e. a 72" Mustang. Anything else is just nuts.

[gavagai]

Shortly before I ripped my wings off I was having some success with the P-51 against the 190 online. The 190 pilots do their best to start with an altitude advantage before they engage, and P-51 pilots should do the same, but for some reason they do not. When your aircraft turns better it's easy to go into combat with a defensive mindset, where if you are attacked you are confident that you can maneuver away onto the attacker's 6, but that approach won't work against the 190. You need to start with an altitude advantage so that they cannot run.

 

As for ripping the wings off, I'm out of practice with the P-51.:poster_oops:

[MiloMorai]

One of the first Me262s was shot down was by Spitfire 9s of the RCAF, so P-51s shouldn't have much problems with them.

[fastfreddie]

Shortly before I ripped my wings off I was having some success with the P-51 against the 190 online. The 190 pilots do their best to start with an altitude advantage before they engage, and P-51 pilots should do the same, but for some reason they do not. When your aircraft turns better it's easy to go into combat with a defensive mindset, where if you are attacked you are confident that you can maneuver away onto the attacker's 6, but that approach won't work against the 190. You need to start with an altitude advantage so that they cannot run.

 

As for ripping the wings off, I'm out of practice with the P-51.:poster_oops:

 

I don't think the FW190 can outrun the mustang in a straight line ... or least I haven't been able too. Once I lose my speed/altitude advantage its time to get out of there in the FW190. If I have a mustang on my tail and hes barely out of accurate gunnery range I can usually escape by starting a shallow to medium climb. I'm not sure if the FW190 can outdive the Mustang but it does it's not by enough because the only time I've out dove a P51 was from about 12k ft. I think he either pulled up to keep from snapping his wings or he didn't want to follow me that low. Now FW190 gets into serious trouble when Mustangs have a speed and altitude advantage because they can do most of the maneuvers that the FW can and some of them they are better at it. Serious evasive maneuvers are needed in these situations but the good pilots usually know how to overcome them or are working in pairs (or more).

[Tumbleweed]

I have been flying DOW server and find Bandits frequently...some encounters I win, some I lose...there are a lot of strategies to find bandits...one is to get a lot of altitude and fly a circular path over a likely zone. Watch for flak, AAA or tracers from an ongoing dogfight. You can usually pick up the bogie and keep him in sight as you position yourself for an attack. I don't feel bad about using zoom when I need to track a target. It is easy to lose them against the terrain. I use terrain mods and bogies are very difficult to see against the enhanced colors and apparent ground texture. This is where zoom helps. But way too much fun in DOW. I see them as the up coming premier WWII server, well it already is. Great job Merlin and all. Really like what you guys have done.

 

I don't use labels myself but if by chance I find myself in a server with Labels on... they are minimized with a modification to the labels.lua file. Original labels clutter is just way too much. Simple to set up in JSGME to re-apply post patch.

 

You can modify the file like so:

 

To change the labels in game you need to modify the labels.lua found in the Config/view folder

 

You can use most characters found on your keyboard if you want custom type stuff, some used the "*" for ground targets and the "|" for weapons... use the "~" for air targets. I just used the * for everything. It is unobtrusive, looks like a small dot and pretty much disappears when you get close. If you use labels, this is a good alternative.

 

AirFormat = {}

AirFormat[10] = "*"

AirFormat[5000] = "*"

AirFormat[10000] = "*"

AirFormat[20000] = "*"

AirFormat[30000] = "*"

 

GroundFormat = {}

GroundFormat[5000] = "*"

GroundFormat[10000] = "*"

GroundFormat[20000] = "*"

 

NavyFormat = {}

NavyFormat[10000] = "*"

NavyFormat[20000] = "*"

NavyFormat[40000] = "*"

 

WeaponFormat = {}

WeaponFormat[5000] = "*"

WeaponFormat[10000] = "*"

WeaponFormat[20000] = "*"

 

 

Thank you MegOhm_SD - I'll keep your advice in mind :thumbup:

Also thanks for the assistance with labels. I've not used them yet but think I might need them as training aids at least until I get the hang of spotting people.

[pingo]

One of the first Me262s was shot down was by Spitfire 9s of the RCAF, so P-51s shouldn't have much problems with them.

 

The historical correct 72-75"MP booster P-51 you mean? Dont know lets wait and se.

[MiloMorai]

8th and 15th AF. (not all were in a2a combat)

 

4th fg 7 Me 262's, 2 Me 163's 1 Ar 234

20th fg 5 1/2 Me 262's

31st fg 7 Me 262's

52nd fg 1 Ar 234

55th fg 14 Me 262's, 1 ?

78th fg 11 Me 262's plus, maybe another 6 ! 2 Ar 234's

325th fg 1 Me 262

332nd fg 3 Me 262's

339th fg 14 Me 262's, 2 Ar 234's

352nd fg 5 1/2 Me 262's, 2 Ar 234's

353rd fg 7 Me 262's

354th fg 4 Me 262's

355th fg 4 Me 262's, 1 Ar 234

356th fg 2 Me 262's, 2 Ar 234's

357th fg 18 Me 262's

359th fg 5 Me 262's, 2 Me 163's

361st fg 6 Me 262's

364th fg 1 1/2 Me 262's, 1 Me 163

479th fg 5 Me 262's, 1 Ar 234

 

Who can give the Me262s claims vs the Allies?

[DieHard]

+1

 

There's obviously a trick to this that I'm missing cos all I seem to do is take off and spend the entire MP mission looking for people and not doing very well at all.

 

If you could score points for taking no damage, putting lots of miles on the airframe and landing safely at the end of every round, I'd win hands down!

 

After an hour or so of what seems like aimless searching, as if by magic an enemy suddenly appears from out of nowhere glues himself 5 feet off my tail and puts me down in a single burst before I know what happened.

 

I don't like to use the crutch known as labels but I fear that's where I'm going to end up. I really can't see a soul when I'm flying about during combat. I've mistaken specs of dust on the screen as the enemy before now. I jest not.

 

So what's the deal with labels? Are they set forcefully by the server you connect to or can I just enable them and if so, how?

 

There's no way I can spot fast moving pixels, often against the dark backdrop of the ground. Some people must have super awesome eyesight or a massive magnifier planted in front of their monitors to dogfight against what appears on my screen as full stops.

 

I just hope that Edge gives us a decent visual edge when it's released. :megalol::pilotfly:

I am not so sure we all are playing with an equally matched environment. I think some guys have visual advantage by modding their setup unless the server does not allow mods use on it. I know the dedicated S-77th's server does not.

 

Your referenced quotes above are almost my identical thinking on the subject. But I also do not fall for a bad situation by blindly jumping into just any dogfight opportunity. I do pass on some encounters even if I do see a guy. But I usually see two guys, a lead with his wingman. I usually fly solo.

 

Use TacView after a few sorties to see how the enemy and specific players tend to fly. This will help you see what is going on.

 

I try to always keep a con no closer to me than right above my head in a turn fight. I don't like to lose too much energy and get suckered into a bad situation. In SP it is easier to eventually get behind AI, one on one. I find MP to be much harder.

 

That is the key, though. Who sees who first and also having an altitude advantage and maybe even he does not see you coming.

 

And turn the dadburn flak off!!