Any thoughts on this FM behaviour?

Charly_Owl · November 3, 2014

Please don't get this topic locked, guys... behave!

That He-111 discussion should stick to either the BoS or the ATAG forums, not this one. We don't even have anything to compare it with in DCS.

Comparing a twin-engined bomber's performance with a single-engined fighter is meaningless.

jimcarrel · November 4, 2014

So who won?

gavagai · November 4, 2014

So who won?

Marmelade with iced tea, of course!:beer:

Weta43 · November 4, 2014

when the sim's FM is demonstrating the ability to routinely do such things that in reality are avoided because of likely death then yes it does demonstrate an FM is wrong.

I had written a long reply, but in the end it just comes down to - there is no logic to your argument...

Anatoli-Kagari9 · November 4, 2014

I'll tell you my opinion, since I to own IL2 BOS and admire that sim.

Yesterday I bought CoD, and am in the process of installing the ATAG patches... It's still a long way before I can fly the spit, the p40, etc... in DCS, and have the ww2 scenery area available, but I plan to get them all because indeed I am yet to find a sim with the quality of DCS in terms of FDM...

But, indeed, making an axial roll in an He111 is something that purely contradicts my experience as a pilot of really lazy gliders, a very interested reader of aerodynamics, and a beginner in ww1 and ww2 sims...

But above all, really looking forward for the most remarkable K4 model that is going to become available in my account in just a few weeks ( ? ) :-)

Edited November 4, 2014 by jcomm

bongodriver · November 4, 2014

I had written a long reply, but in the end it just comes down to - there is no logic to your argument...

it's quite simple, in real life He-111's would be leaving smoking holes every time they attempt low level aerobatics from take off, but Tarquin the internet pilot is rolling and looping his in game He-111 from take off with casual abandon.

What is not logical is the assumption that an He-111 probably could do low level aerobatics from take off because a computer game says so.

Abburo · November 4, 2014

There is no problem to make the glider... :) but we will have to include thermics/clouds systems, ridge airflows, etc.

Maybe sometime later :)

A package containing a Wilga, Pilatus, a Discus, etc ... using new weather mechanism it will be just WOW. But later, now there are some other hot things to solved.

Weta43 · November 6, 2014

it's quite simple, in real life He-111's would be leaving smoking holes every time they attempt low level aerobatics from take off, but Tarquin the internet pilot is rolling and looping his in game He-111 from take off with casual abandon.

What is not logical is the assumption that an He-111 probably could do low level aerobatics from take off because a computer game says so.

First of all - there are no He-111 in this sim, so it's discussions of its FM are an argument for another forum.

Second (& returning to the original question about the FMs in DCS), what we're discussing is this statement :"when the sim's FM is demonstrating the ability to routinely do such things that in reality are avoided because of likely death then yes it does demonstrate an FM is wrong."

One thing does necessarily not follow from the other.

The ability of people to do stunts in DCS that nobody does in real life may simply be the result of the difference in the consequence of failing to complete the stunt in real life and in the sim

If the average number of deaths in DCS before mastering a stunt is just 1, what it tells the community is that with a little bit of practice, you can learn how to do it...

With exactly the same odds in real life, nobody ever masters the stunt, and the message to the community is that you have to be a suicidal idiot to try...

You can make your own mind up about how low the average number of deaths in real life has to be before people are prepared to attemt to learn a stunt, but I have noticed that betting on Russian Roulette, which only has a 17% chance of death, is usually considered dangerous to the point of foolhardyness.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Weta43

Kwiatek · November 6, 2014

In DCS i have more doubts about stall characterictic above critical angle of atack.

All these planes stall at critical angle of attack but you could keep full stick back and have no fear of get spin. I mean Fw 190 or P-51. I think in these area DCS is still too forgiving. I got occasionaly spin in FW 190 only in verticals where i lose too much speed. In turns there is no fear to get spin at all.

Also i think in DCS prop planes fly too much " on rails". There is little too low oscilation after control movements. So prop planes in DCS fly more like jets.

But no sim is perfect. BOS got too much oscilation, expecially for German planes, CLOD got very bad ground handling ( taxi, take offs and landings) but better handling in the air ( not on the rails but no too much oscilation, nice stalls and spins).

Edited November 6, 2014 by Kwiatek

Ala13_ManOWar · November 6, 2014

I don't think that's the point in the original discussion Kwiatek, but IMHO DCS is anything but "flying on rails". If you fly a real aircraft you get mostly same reactions and movements you see inside DCS. Well, I don't know a warbirds, but the ones I have flown so I guess the same for those high powered machines.

S!

Anatoli-Kagari9 · November 6, 2014

Certainly not "flying on rails" in DCS World, with either aircraft model I have used.

There is one limitation regarding the effects of turbulence and wind shift / shear above around 400' AGL ( I can't recall the exact value, but it's close to ground :-) ), so, even if you set dynamic weather, with single or multiple systems, or manually define turbulence, it'll only be present while flying low :-/ This is certainly a limitation of the weather model I would like to see addressed in future versions, but not a limitation of the FDM...

Regarding stalls and spins, I have to confess that indeed in DCS World's p51d, and Dora I have found the best ever simulation of such extreme situations, rather difficult or even impossible to properly model on a PC, but nonetheless very well represented in this simulator.

The rubber-like reaction to control inputs some flight simulators exhibit is simply unrealistic, so, please don't think that a real aircraft wobbles like in some sims when you kick the rudder, or apply stick and return it to neutral! Typical aircraft are indeed very "on-rails" unless the air mass they're traversing is turbulent. The stability characteristics of the p51d appear to be superbly modeled according to rw data and POH and many pilot logs.

Another observation is regarding ground handling. Again, I find ground handling in DCS very well modeled, to me the best among the various sims I have used so far, and those include all of the civil sims you can name, plus IL2 BOS. While I really like a lot of aspects in IL2 BOS physics modeling, I find it's prop effects on ground way overdone, and requiring an illogical continuous of rudder and/or differential braking to steer the aircraft while taxiing and even on initial takeoff run. I wish I could have the realistic ground handling of the p51d and Dora in DCS for many of the aircraft in IL2 BOS... I believe Yo-Yo's comments mentioned in another thread meant a different aspect, probably regarding the contact with ground outside of the rw / tw, for instance when landing out or belly landing, and not with the ground physics when operating of tarmac...

Edited November 6, 2014 by jcomm

bongodriver · November 6, 2014

First of all - there are no He-111 in this sim, so it's discussions of its FM are an argument for another forum.

Don't blame me for it, the He-111 has been in the discussion from page 1 long before I contributed.

Second (& returning to the original question about the FMs in DCS), what we're discussing is this statement :"when the sim's FM is demonstrating the ability to routinely do such things that in reality are avoided because of likely death then yes it does demonstrate an FM is wrong."

One thing does necessarily not follow from the other.

The ability of people to do stunts in DCS that nobody does in real life may simply be the result of the difference in the consequence of failing to complete the stunt in real life and in the sim

If the average number of deaths in DCS before mastering a stunt is just 1, what it tells the community is that with a little bit of practice, you can learn how to do it...

With exactly the same odds in real life, nobody ever masters the stunt, and the message to the community is that you have to be a suicidal idiot to try...

You can make your own mind up about how low the average number of deaths in real life has to be before people are prepared to attemt to learn a stunt, but I have noticed that betting on Russian Roulette, which only has a 17% chance of death, is usually considered dangerous to the point of foolhardyness.

Fine, but the whole point is this stunt is not something that has taken any prolonged period of practice, somebody just thought 'I wonder if I can do this' then did it and made a video, to me that suggests it is so easy to do it is almost routine.

Anyway, enough of this, I just can't believe I'm apparently the weirdo for not believing an He-111 can do this.