Our minds & brains & sims....

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

They're really tricky....

 

Yesterday when I arrived home, not even knowing about the release of a new patch, I switched on the PC and DCS :) ( Addict's fate... )

 

Was surprised to see the game updating, didn't bother checking the forums to find out about the update list of changes / fixes / additions... ( btw: I never know where to search for those... ), and went straight into the Takeoff situ...

 

Took off, now using ( since a few days ) even the Auto Prop Pitch "mode", completed a circuit, landing flawlessly and then took off again to test the pitching moment due to flaps and the aileron trim tab efficiency... After a couple of minutes I was about to post at the DCS that I did welcome the changes to the FDM :)

 

Then I found the list of fixes, then I noticed nothing had been listed regarding these particular subjects... then I noticed it was my mind, my brain, my "flying" technique, or simply the fact that I am learning to use the K4 that made me think there were changes...

 

Later I flew another mission, and again, had the sensation that wing tip breaking problems had also been addressed.... Well...

 

This really doesn't go in favour of some of my notes on what I find innacurate ... because it exhibits how much it depends on the way I use the sim, the way I "pilot" the airplanes... the spirit I seat at my simmer cockpit with...

Edited December 13, 2014 by jcomm

[Lizzard]

Then I found the list of fixes, then I noticed nothing had been listed regarding these particular subjects... then I noticed it was my mind, my brain, my "flying" technique, or simply the fact that I am learning to use the K4 that made me think there were changes...

 

 

yes..but as we all know..not all changes are mentioned in the changelog:)

[javelina1]

ah, the placebo effect... ;)

[gavagai]

Very honest, very observant!:thumbup:

[ZaltysZ]

yes..but as we all know..not all changes are mentioned in the changelog:)

 

Yeah, unfortunately even the important ones might be skipped.

[MA_Goblin]

Wing tip still brakes off and the canopy is still dirty as hell :D

[Sarge55]

Wing tip still brakes off and the canopy is still dirty as hell :D

 

+1:music_whistling:

[CaptJodan]

I was actually surprised to see the wing tip issue still there. Figured with rumors that later builds already addressed the problem and the quickness of the latest patch, I figured it was one of the big motivators for the patch itself. It was an issue taken to heart by those in the know.

 

It's not a complaint, but it actually was the first thing I tested. Maybe they're tweaking the G effects with it so the pilot will have warning too.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Yes, it is definitely present ( goes away easily ... ) but I have somehow started to maneuver the K4 more gently...

 

When I first started using the p51d, I was constantly spinning. It was a nightmare only comparable to learning to takeoff in the K4 :)... Well, my brain and neurons doing their thrick again - I can't forget how difficult it was to takeoff in the p51d too ;-)

 

Anyway, I guess that sooner or latter it'll be addressed, and yesterday, having been for more than a couple of hours at one of the MP servers, having a great time with a swarm of p51ds I could only see on the Map view :-/, I did loose my tips at least 3 times .... and didn't even get into dogfight!!!

 

Sorry guys, if you were there at the p51d base when I started strafing, tired of not being able to glimpse one only friend or foe aircraft of the many flying around me, according to that mighty Map ( F10 ) view...

 

But. flying this model really makes a difference from my experience in other sims, just as it happened with the p51d, the uh-1h, and now the F86 too, awaiting in the hangar, already installed and activated, but being put to 2nd place because of this gorgeous Kurfurst :-)

[ZaltysZ]

I was actually surprised to see the wing tip issue still there. Figured with rumors that later builds already addressed the problem and the quickness of the latest patch, I figured it was one of the big motivators for the patch itself. It was an issue taken to heart by those in the know.

 

It was changed. Tips broke off at 6.7G before patch. Now they break at around 7G only if Gs are asymetric (pull + roll). If Gs are symetric (pull only), 8+ G can be reached.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

It was changed. Tips broke off at 6.7G before patch. Now they break at around 7G only if Gs are asymetric (pull + roll). If Gs are symetric (pull only), 8+ G can be reached.

 

Great! I did have the sensation that something had changed in that area indeed, because I was pulling harder without breaking my wings tips, lat night, but I couldn't measure it :-(

 

Are you using TackView or some App of that type to get those G values?

[gavagai]

Wingtips were still breaking off left and right (pun intended) in our multiplayer session yesterday! There is no blackout so most assume they can continue to pull more Gs.

[ZaltysZ]

 

Are you using TackView or some App of that type to get those G values?

 

You can use external view for roughly estimation. Gs are shown at the bottom of screen. Roll to get inverted, pull and tighten gradually until something breaks, save a track, and then watch it from external view. Then do the same, but add rolling while pulling.

[Pilum]

You can use external view for roughly estimation. Gs are shown at the bottom of screen. Roll to get inverted, pull and tighten gradually until something breaks, save a track, and then watch it from external view. Then do the same, but add rolling while pulling.

 

Well pilot's are cautioned not to roll while pulling heavy g-load because this is known to be dangerous. If fact structural engineers refer to this as the rolling pullout load case and it is usually not a dimensioning load case for the airplane meaning you should not expect to be able to pull the same g-load in this case.

 

Usually you have a dimensioning loadcase that you need to show the contractor that is 1.5 times the max permissible. However, usually the pass criteria is that it should not break at this point and usually the contracting authority will allow that the aircraft can redistribute loads through plastic deformation meaning you could pop rivets and wrinkle skin at this point which however will not go down well with your crew chief when you land :music_whistling:

 

I would guess that the Me109K4 had in the order of 6-8 g max permissible at a certain weight and that the wings should consequently come off at around 9-12 g. However, since it's embarrasing to fail the load test in front of the contractor (usually a hydraulics or sandbags test), engineers will have a small "own" safety margin on top of the 1.5 so you should be able to pull a bit more than 1.5 x max permissible but in this region while you may be able to get the plane home but it will probably have to be written off and that will be difficult to simulate in DCS so having the wings come off in combat seems like a better idea.

 

So why not go for something like wings come off at 1.25 x max permissible load factor for symmetric load case as a compromize since allowing the full 1.5 seems too generous given that this basically ruins the aircraft IRL.

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Looks like an excellent criteria Pilum!

[flyingdutchy]

I like the Bf109 flown the bird several times now i getting to know how it al works.

i would like to see that i can remove/attached the flair gun. my next fase wil be some dog fighting online against some p51. :pilotfly:

[Kurfürst]

So why not go for something like wings come off at 1.25 x max permissible load factor for symmetric load case as a compromize since allowing the full 1.5 seems too generous given that this basically ruins the aircraft IRL.

 

Because IRL the ca. 1.25 factor was the bending limit (8 g) and the break limit was ca. 1.5x (10.8 g) for the 109, and wings should not come off at a load at which they only became deformed IRL.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Kurfürst

[Yo-Yo]

Because IRL the ca. 1.25 factor was the bending limit (8 g) and the break limit was ca. 1.5x (10.8 g) for the 109, and wings should not come off at a load at which they only became deformed IRL.

 

As deformation is hard to show graphically the overstressing model in DCS adds fatique to the structure.

You can pull any g-load below the limit without any problems. If you enter the range between this limit and a break limit, the structure gets fatique proportional this violation. THe breal limits goes slightly down as the number of this violations grows.

[Kurfürst]

Very impressive detail modelling YoYo! :)

[Sporg]

Yo-Yo, maybe a silly proposal:

Would it be possible to show the level of fatigue by gradually bending the wings at the breaking point?

So that you have a visual indicator how bad shape your plane is in?

 

For sure, if I saw my wing bent, I would start flying veery carefully.. ;)

 

Edit:

I remember Pierre Clostermann describing how a wingman's Spitfire wings were wrinkled after he overstressed the structure in a high-speed dive.

Could it be possible to put a wrinkle or more as a graphical overlay on the wings, as fatigue got bigger? Maybe combined with the bending?

Edited December 16, 2014 by Sporg

[Crumpp]

Yo-Yo, maybe a silly proposal:

Would it be possible to show the level of fatigue by gradually bending the wings at the breaking point?

So that you have a visual indicator how bad shape your plane is in?

 

For sure, if I saw my wing bent, I would start flying veery carefully.. ;)

 

Edit:

I remember Pierre Clostermann describing how a wingman's Spitfire wings were wrinkled after he overstressed the structure in a high-speed dive.

Could it be possible to put a wrinkle or more as a graphical overlay on the wings, as fatigue got bigger? Maybe combined with the bending?

 

That would be very cool and ground breaking for a flight simulator.

[Thumper1606688436]

If your wing is visually bent then it's already too late.

 

I would think it better and easier to implement the sound of metal buckling before the wings snap.

[JST]

The F-86 Sabre has wing bending visually implemented.

[Thumper1606688436]

The F-86 Sabre has wing bending visually implemented.

 

It shows the wings flexing from the buffeting but there is no permanent wing damage. It is normal for wings to flex inflight but we are talking about the point just before structural failure

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

Well guys, bent or not bent, or again my mind ( ??? ) thruth is that after yesterday's update I could complete a full dogfight / furbal against 4 vs 4 without a single wing breaking!

 

Beautiful!!!!