Evading AIM-120s tutorial

[MrTUX]

Hi everybody, i am quite new to Flaming Cliffs 3 and DCS world, i have about 40 hrs into it.

 

I played the dear old FC2 quite a bit some time ago, and now joining in the new game things are a little diffrent.

 

I re-watch tutorialvids and guides but all i can find i still based on FC2 or the older Lock On..

 

So i need some tutorial/information on how to evade 120s when they are already gone pitbull;

 

I usually fly the SU-27, so when my Beryoza starts beeping and the intensity light raises, i wait until the last 2 lights are about to go up then pull hard +Gs on the right or left + spam chaffs.

 

Only problem is that this doesnt work, mostly on Multiplayer(in SP Missions AI 120s are often out of energy when near me) and i end up dead.

 

Here a couple of vids i used to learn:

 

Can you guys tell me if this tactic still works or what to do in my case?

Thanks

[rami80]

Well evading an amraam fired within the no escape zone is tough, if fired from outside(you have to assume a TWS shot) keep the bandit at the edge of your radar's gimbals. This helps by making the missile travel a larger distance and if you say move from the left edge to the right the missile will have to turn which causes it to lose a lot of energy.

 

If fired within the no escape zone, the diving technique usually works. Roll the aircraft on it's back and dive while releasing chaff, once your low enough the amraam's radar will confuse you for ground clutter. Make sure you are however perpendicular to the missile( what I mean is that your speed relative to the missile should be really low). You can sometimes out maneuver it, by diving and pulling hard when it becomes close, this doesn't always work. However if you press S and pull up and your speed is high it will miss, but once the g-effects on the air frame are implemented this technique is suicide.

 

Determining at what distance was fired from is up to you, you have to rely on how fast it is closing in via your RWR.

 

Try creating a mission and placing an F-15 at the distance you want to try evading the missile at. The ai will always fire directly.

Edited December 14, 2014 by rami80

[Stuge]

That "last moment pull" worked well in FC2, but it doesn't work very well anymore.

 

So here's what I do if I fly a soviet jet and detect an active coming and there's nowhere to hide:

 

-full burner and immediately turn straight away from it, and hit the deck during this turn if possible.

-chaff like crazy all the way

-once running away, judge if more evasion is needed (if you're going to get hit by just flying straight) by looking at beryoza

-if you determine more evasion is necessary, do maximum G snaking maneuvers (quickly change left-right, or tight barrel roll) while running away. This will effectively bleed the speed of the chasing missile until it cannot hit you anymore. Don't bleed all your speed though, keep it high enough to pull max G! Keep chaffing like crazy also!

-once you judge the missile won't hit, end the evasive maneuver and escape from the threat if necessary

 

Now this style works when the missile is launched from a reasonable range, you are going fast enough in the beginning, and you are low altitude.

 

If you are high altitude, the missile is launched at within the "go-active" range, or you are flying very slow, there are no guarantees that you'll survive.

 

Fly alot and test what works and what doesn't. :)

Edited December 17, 2014 by Stuge

[104th_Maverick]

Can you guys tell me if this tactic still works

 

The short answer is no.

 

Long answer...

 

The reality is there is no manoeuvre that will work all the time, a lot of people try to figure out some magic move that will work in all situations and it's just not possible.

 

The most important element in avoiding AMRAAMS (or any missile) is to perform the appropriate manoeuvre for that given situation.

 

If you rigidly try to stick to the same move you will end up getting killed. You have to be able to think fast and adapt to the situation and act accordingly.

 

To succeed at this you need good SA, this comes with time and lots of practice.

Once your SA reaches a certain level you will be able to choose from a repertoire of moves that will give the greatest chance of survival for that given situation.

 

As with most things it's really down to trial and error but without a doubt the most important thing is SA... if you know what is going on around you, you are able to make better decisions.

 

It is much more important to understand what is going on around you than to have clever hands and feet. Sure there are one or two moves that will work 'most' of the time however to really succeed you need to be flexible and be able to adapt very quickly to what is going on around as some people are better at weapons delivery than others.

 

Now when I say 'what's going on around you' I mean things like, how high did the bandit fire from, how fast was he going, how far away was he at launch, how fast are you going etc.

 

In my opinion the second most important thing from SA is understand how to manipulate the way missiles track in Lead Pursuit to your advantage, once you get your head around this it becomes much easier to evade any missile, active or not.

 

I do realise I'm not giving you any advice here on what moves to pull, this is because I spent a great deal of time working it out for myself and there are some things I only share with my squadron members.

I had to go through a lot of failures before I started to see results, but it's not rocket science, like I said focus on SA and learn to manipulate the missiles Lead Pursuit and your on the right path!

 

Final note:

 

I see lots of people getting frustrated flying online because they get shot down or don't get as many kills as they think they should be. Many people expect results because they have been flying for a few weeks / months but the reality is the majority of good pilots in the sim have been flying for a long time and have 100s if not 1000s of hours of experience. I with a few other members of the 104th probably have more flight hours in the F-15C than most US Airforce pilots, at least the ones who have not had 5+ years on the job :)

 

DCS PvP is not something you can become good at quickly, you have to grind it out like everyone else and earn your experience and SA.

Edited December 17, 2014 by [Maverick]

[jcbak]

This video pertains to Falcon BMS but the principles are the same.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyCeAVsaDWs

[rrohde]

That was a very enlightening post, Maverick. Thanks for that.

 

... and, looking at your username, I simply have to say this "You can be my wingman any time..." :)

[Bimbac]

Maverick is right.

 

There is no "jack-of-all-trades" move that will save your butt every time. You must get quite a thorough understanding how the missiles "think" and work in general. Also knowing how to pilot the aircraft and to save its energy is one of the keys to survive.

 

I'd like to point out some general advice here:

 

- Fly fast, M>1 if possible. Speed is life!

- If you are in defensive situation and there is time and opportunity to escape or evade the fight, make it so! Live today, fight tomorrow!

- You must know, where you are getting shot from.

- If you think or know you are being shot at, take a slow, easy turn away from the missile, maintaining high speed and drop your nose down. After couple of seconds pitch up again while turning into the missile's flightpath. At this time, the missile should lose all its energy, rendering itself harmless. However, this technique requires a lot of knowledge and practicing.

- If you are well inside the missile's NEZ, keep one hand on ejection handle all the time! :)

- Chaff can help you, but it's always more effective to prevent the missile of being launched in the first place, and if it's not possible, try to defeat it by right maneuvering.

 

Hope this helps.

[Ktulu2]

If you are trying to evade a 120 when its pitbull, you have done wrong. Try to anticipate when the ennemy will launch and keep the ennemy at you gimbal distance, until the missile you fired goes active(or when you feel guiding your missile is less prioritary than evading), than go fully defensive (and if you have well anticipated, you might get an active 120 about here). From here, things splits appart and require SA or adaptation :

1-Hide into mountains/terrain if possible

2-make the missile's way to you longer, and thus make it loose more speed (you have to judge according to the situation). Go lower to make the missile get more drag from thicker air, go higher if you think the missile is low on energy, turn around in an other direction (90° in the end to the missile) and fire some chaffs, etc.

 

Keep in mind : going defensive is no solution, it only makes you live longer. If you don't try to get back to the fight or bring the ennemy into SAMs, otherwise, as the ennemy is an F15, it'll catch you up without too much trouble. Going defensive too early is a good way to die, just like going defensive too late.

 

This being said, I'm 11moths old to the game. I'd consider myself at least decent as I win the vast majority of my engagements, but there might be some false in what I said, even if it works for me.

Also, I'm and F15 pilot mainly, so once again some things I said might not apply to the Su27.

[MrTUX]

Wow ! Lots of informations, Thanks guys.

 

Now it's time for hard practice :joystick::thumbup:

[rami80]

One thing regarding SA, try flying an F-15 and you will notice how much SA the RWR and the radar give. It is harder to maintain the same SA in the flanker, however that challenge makes it more rewarding IMO.

[Stuge]

One thing regarding SA, try flying an F-15 and you will notice how much SA the RWR and the radar give. It is harder to maintain the same SA in the flanker, however that challenge makes it more rewarding IMO.

 

Yes true. This can be compensated by denying your opponent SA regarding your position. In other words, engage your ninja mode! :D

[MrTUX]

One more thing:

 

is it correct that when a F-15 locks me up in TWS mode I do not get any warning from my RWR?

 

I don't get any warning even when he fires, only when the missile goes pitbull.

 

Is this correct, TWS works like this IRL too?

 

I don't get how my passive RWR doesn't notice the lock-on by the other aircraft, any explanation on this?

Thanks

[TAW_Blaze]

One more thing:

 

is it correct that when a F-15 locks me up in TWS mode I do not get any warning from my RWR?

 

I don't get any warning even when he fires, only when the missile goes pitbull.

 

Is this correct, TWS works like this IRL too?

 

I don't get how my passive RWR doesn't notice the lock-on by the other aircraft, any explanation on this?

Thanks

 

It detects it as a search radar, because it is practically operating in such a mode. TWS compatible missiles often use something called 'mid course guidance' or MCG. Based on target information the processor can predict an intercept point and it'll instruct the missile to fly there. Given this information is nowhere near accurate enough to make an actual intercept in case of a maneuvering target, the missile has an onboard radar that can provide an STT-ish guidance. I guess you could launch ARHs from STT but as you see at the early stages of the missile's flight it's not as important to have extreme scan resolution, therefore a less accurate mode is sufficient.

[MrTUX]

Oh ok so thats why the target RWR doesn' t detect the "lock", in fact there isn't any directly on it (correct me if i got it wrong).

 

Wanted to know how it worked:book:

 

Thanks!:thumbup:

[Nooch]

 

This tutorial is excellent but the microphone he's using are making my ears bleed :(