Gunnery Tips?

[bunraku]

Hi

 

In a nutshell I suck at the GAU-8. I struggle to get my target pipper on targets in plenty of time and it's all very rushed and silly banks ands maneuvers and it's only PAC1 that probably allows me a decent shot when I go to PAC2.

 

So I'm looking for tips. Some things I am interested in.

 

1) Do you zoom right in to your HUD or halfway or all the way out?

2) How many seconds are your bursts?

3) At what range do you generally fire(I appreciate it's different for Armour etc)

4) And most importantly how are you lining up? Are you using bank or rudder etc

 

Any videos or post out there that are good on this?

 

Thanks for all replies.

[pyromaniac4002]

If time and focus allow, I'll usually zoom in on my target for that extra degree of confidence that I'm aiming at the right thing.

 

I use different burst lengths and slant range for different targets, for the heaviest armor (T-80U/Abrams/etc.) I'd probably go for 300-400 rounds, maybe a little less if I'm hitting the rear armor or have a good steep dive angle to hit the top, and try to wait until 0.7 nm to start firing. T-72s can be taken out with ~200 round burst pretty reliably, and anything below that (T-55, APCs, and unarmored) I'd go for ~100 round bursts. For APCs and unarmored vehicles I will sometimes push out the slant range to 1.2 nm or so, especially against BMP-2s or BMP-3s with their respective 30 mm and 100 mm guns that'll really screw up any repeat gun runs. A steep dive angle (40-50 degrees nose down) can help both to hit the weaker top armor as well as keep the gun on target.

 

Lining up I'll use everything at my disposal, there's no real secret to doing it, it just takes time and practice to get a feel for it. If you don't have it already, this is one of the areas where TrackIR makes the biggest impact. If you find yourself oscillating back and forth trying to aim at the target adjusting your joystick/rudder curves could be helpful, but I'd do that as a last resort.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of strafing videos on Youtube, even if they're not explicitly instructional. Watching a bunch of examples of how other people do it is probably just as good as someone narrating the process. Good luck!

[PFunk1606688187]

If you're having trouble getting the pipper on target try using the Gun Cross as your aim point for initial roll in. If you use the pipper itself since its corrected but lags you will likely experience a 'windshield wiper' effect. You can't use the TVV either since it lags considerably while pulling Gs.

 

Pull the gun cross to the target then as you unload the aircraft put the pipper on the target.

 

For ranges and burst length, I fire on tanks at 0.8 slant miles til about 0.5/0.4. APCs its closer to 1.5nm and for anything soft you can probably kill it with a good long burst at 2.0.

 

I usually go max zoom as soon as I've unloaded the aircraft and at the same time I'm refining my aim to put the pipper on the target. In real life the PAC apparently allows you to refine aim while its engaged but this doesn't appear to be modeled. As a result you must only select PAC once you have the pipper right on target.

 

For tanks its best to fire from at least 45' dive if not steeper.

[Maverick-X]

1. Ensure your target is between the two dots inside the reticle before you pull trigger stage 1. You need to be set up and stable from at least 3 miles out.

 

If I understood that correctly, the upper dot represents AP bullet impact point and the lower one HE. If that is correct, I don't see any sense in aiming inbetween.

I usually use the cross rather then the pipper, as you will need AP only for Tanks, and I tend to get quite close to Tanks and the difference does not matter anymore.

 

To anwers OP's question:

 

I try to avoid rudder input, as at least I (or my pedals?) am not able to make fine enough adjustments. General procedure for a gunrun would be flying ~30°+ off target so you are able to see it left/right at the edge of the canopy. When you reach your desired dive angle roll over until you have to look "up" (up relative to your aircraft, not up in the sky) to see it. Then pull until your nose points at it and roll level. I try to get on target at least roughly and do a slight correction with PAC engaged.

 

Ranges and angles have been discussed... The heavier the armore the closer you should get, the bigger the thread the further away you'd like to be. Those pesky bmp-2's can rip you apart closer than 1.5nm...

When I'm out of ordnance and there are shilkas or similar threats left I sometimes tend to go low and make short gunruns out of close range, fun but risky! They don't hit you as long as you don't fly straight, if you get the pipper on target fast enough, a 1s burst is more than enough at about 1nm. Just make sure to break off as soon as you see a muzzle flash ;-)

 

Dive angles depend on target and threat aswell. I sometimes use a great dive angle and very large slant range against Iglas, 60-80° and ~3nm with a ~2-3s burst. A lot of ammo but I don't like wasting guided munitions on such guys either. Generally the dive angle is something to play with:

Single target heavy armor: steep dive

Single target light/no armor: medium dive angle

multiple light targets in a line (close to each other): shallow dive and attack without pac

[PFunk1606688187]

When you reach your desired dive angle roll over until you have to look "up" (up relative to your aircraft, not up in the sky) to see it. Then pull until your nose points at it and roll level.

I like to describe that as 'pull the target through your roof'. Its also important in my experience to keep your eyes on the target while doing this so TrackIR is important. In theory your eyes should stay on the target area during the roll and pull since its a basic reality of piloting any type of vehicle that you will tend to steer towards what you're looking at, particularly during complex maneuvers that overload your conscious decision making.

 

The other thing is for a specific dive angle you want to use canopy references, which you develop and understanding of over time. There is a formula I read which says if you want a given dive angle you should be rolling your aircraft to 85 degrees plus your desired dive angle in the direction of the target. So a 45 degree dive involves rolling inverted to 120 degrees then pulling into the target. To achieve this though you still need to be a given three dimensional distance from the target.

 

This goes back to the basic concept of the bombing triangle. Your dive angle is the hypotenuse of a triangle with the track distance from the target and your altitude being the other two sides of the triangle that allow your hypotenuse, ie. your dive angle, to be what you want it to be. You can and some do create sleds for calculating these things, and it applies equally to any type of diving ordnance delivery, but generally I just eye ball it. Its worth however knowing the baseline altitudes and base distances from targets to achieve preferred dive angles, in general. You can achieve a given dive angle from any distance but you want to keep it in a given pocket to achieve optimal distance during the attack run. Too close and you won't be diving for long enough and will be inside firing range before you can track the target. Too far away and you'll be diving for a long time making yourself a non maneuvering target for longer than you need to. A perfect attack run sees you stabilize and track the target just as you reach your desired slant range for firing.

 

Last but not least, NEVER use your speedbrakes while doing attack runs. The Hog is a pig when it comes to speed, so don't help it to get any slower.

[bunraku]

Thanks again for all replies.

[StrongHarm]

I created a tutorial/training mission centered on gunning tanks. There are voice overs and procedural notes to help you refine your methods. After flying it several times I was able to go from being a lawn dart that had to reload three times, to killing all tanks with a single load of rounds with very little sweat. I think it's fun as well as instructive. Hope you enjoy.

 

Tank Busting 101

 

Excerpt:

Welcome to Tank Busting Practice!

You'll have two groups of non-aggressive T80 Main Battle Tanks moving up the runways at waypoint 3.

They'll be moving very slowly on a south-north track. They will not disperse.

Once you kill those they'll be replaced by two groups of AGGRESSIVE T80s which will disperse under fire.

Smoke marks the 1.5nm run in point off the east and west runways;

red/orange at 5k and white at 3k.

Take off and you'll receive further instructions in the air.

Please follow all waypoints until initial attack.

 

POST RUN-IN REMINDERS:

Consider:

1. Roll-In aspect----------(target off wing)

2. Slant---------------------(-15 to -30)

3. Speed-------------------(270+)

4. PAC----------------------(Let it fly)

5. Range-------------------(fire at .7 to .4nm)

6. Wave off ---------------(if it's not pretty turn away)

7. Ammo-------------------(as little rounds as possible for effect)

8. Egress-------------------(up and across)

The smoke is just a reference at 5k and 3k. Try different altitudes and see what works.

 

Roll around to the smoke and give it another try! Take your time! Review and analyze!

 

Try different tactics and perfect your technique. Get surgical!

Can you kill them all in one weapons load?

That's no more than 71 rounds per tank!

[Schnarre Aggro]

I flew some runs on your mission.

Looks like this:

 

 

actually its not a matter of being out .3nm or.7nm to kill a tank, its a matter of having "dot on Target" :joystick:

Edited January 2, 2015 by Schnarre [Aggro]

[StrongHarm]

Good vid. After those first two groups of safe T80s, you'll have two groups of tanks that start shooting back. If you run in on them shallow they'll tear you up. The .7nm threshold concerns penetration of rounds on heavy armor. If you're further than that you have much less chance of penetration. Another aspect of good penetration is a stable platform for the gun. You want a very small spread. You can get this by letting PAC stabilize before firing.

 

That was some skillful shooting. I particularly liked the two tank kill on the single run at the end. One thing I started doing that decreased my time to stable acquisition was to do a complete aileron role onto the target. I then started trying to take out tanks with very minimal bursts. Fun stuff!

[Schnarre Aggro]

yeah, i had some ammo left after the first tanks.... the second wave spawnt and guess what: ... The first hits i got, while flying past them, broke my gun :lol:

 

and because that happens very often, i dont engage aggressive tanks which are that close together

[Bunyap]

Hey, cool mission. I'll have to try that out.

 

I have a lot of videos that cover what you are asking for here:

 

 

Look for video #5, #7, #8, #9, and #19. They may be information overkill for some but these five cover gun employment in a lot of depth.

[StrongHarm]

Taking those live tanks out is very doable. The real value of this training mission is trying different tactics under predictable and reproducible circumstances. For me, avoiding fire SOP is:

- Roll in at no further than 1.5nm (decrease their time to set up a shot)

- Have enough altitude and drain enough speed to roll in with lots of slant and little energy.. throttles back

- After the run make your egress with lots of travel on the horizontal and vertical (45 deg) and do some light work with the rudders while watching the tracers

 

Using this method I can take out all groups with a single load of 30mm without getting hit once. Sometimes I'll orbit the field under 1k and just practice avoiding fire.

 

I like the saying 'train now or bleed later'.. it's always served me well.

Edited January 2, 2015 by StrongHarm
spelling

[Eddie]

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/showthread.php?3131-Air-to-Surface-Weapon-Delivery-Methods

 

Questions?

[PFunk1606688187]

;2279149']I flew some runs on your mission.

Looks like this:

 

 

actually its not a matter of being out .3nm or.7nm to kill a tank, its a matter of having "dot on Target" :joystick:

 

I only watched the first roll in. Pull more Gs, up to a steady tone (or 5ish Gs). If you lolly gag you'll make an easy target.

Edited January 2, 2015 by P*Funk

[StrongHarm]

Put your Gs where your mouth is! Download the mission and make us a video PFunk! :)

[PFunk1606688187]

LOL, might do that.

[Maverick-X]

I like "pull the target through your roof", gotta remember that!

The other thing is for a specific dive angle you want to use canopy references, which you develop and understanding of over time. There is a formula I read which says if you want a given dive angle you should be rolling your aircraft to 85 degrees plus your desired dive angle in the direction of the target. So a 45 degree dive involves rolling inverted to 120 degrees then pulling into the target. To achieve this though you still need to be a given three dimensional distance from the target.

 

Thanks for that, I usually just calculate the angle (roughly), as 1nm is ~6000ft, and the dive angle for a given altitude and slant range is

SIN (angle) = Altitude / Slant

Works quite well to get a rough estimate but I've got to try the roll-in related idea. At which altitude/slant relation does this formula work?

[Snoopy]

Not perfect but a couple videos from Dojo and I doing some LAS and LRS training with a Turning/Level Turn Safe Escape Maneuver.

 

zuulsH27bfw

 

fLunpmHmU0c

Edited January 3, 2015 by Snoopy

[StrongHarm]

Cool vids Snoopy!

 

PFunk.. you making that video? I'll probably put one together if I can pull myself out of the editor. I've been working on a new live fire exercise mission for a few weeks. It has voice overs, target count/BDA, and even an STO flying your wing. It's A-10C/KA-50 and I think it might be epic.

[StrongHarm]

I launched another training mission you can use for Guns practice:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=137532

 

[Kimi_uy]

Another way of using the gun at night is using the IFFCC SPI and slewing the TGP to it, then you can aim the gun with the TGP at stoopid long distances and with FLIR.

What is does is creates a SPI in the CCIP solution in the HUD.

 

To set IFFCC SPI:

1- HUD SOI.

2- TMS Aft short.

3- China FWD long to slew sensors to SPI.

 

This is me doing this procedure:

 

IDK if this is used IRL as a technique but i find it very useful to acquire targets at night.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Kimi_uy

[Snoopy]

You shouldn't need the TGP for gun deliveries. NVG's work just fine for me.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Snoopy

[Kimi_uy]

You shouldn't need the TGP for fun deliveries. NVG's work just fine for me.

 

Using the TGP to aim the gun is the whole point of my post!

[Snoopy]

Using the TGP to aim the gun is the whole point of my post!

 

And my point is spending to much time heads down looking through your TGP will get you shot down. So I say again, you don't need your TGP for gun employment.

[Kimi_uy]

And my point is spending to much time heads down looking through your TGP will get you shot down. So I say again, you don't need your TGP for gun employment.

 

Oh sorry, I think I got it wrong cause you typed "for fun deliveries". It is pretty wacko to use it in combat yes :p