Proof that a fighter is only as good as the pilot.

[TucksonSonny]

Um, papers include envelope charts ;) And if you compare the turn rates of the F-15 and the F-16, you'd see that the F-16 is "superior" on paper because overall it turns better across its flight envelope.

 

The F-22 IMO is the first fighter that is absolutely superior to any existing operational fighter on paper. If you compare its turn rate graphs with any other fighters (if you can get it unclassified), it probably is vastly superior to the F-15s, the Eurofighter's, Rafale, Su-27, MiG-29, etc.

 

For so much money, each Raptor is designed not just to "beat" the opposition, but absolutely dominate it. This fighter can probably fly to the centre of the F/A-18E's turn circle and hover there, keeping its nose pointed on the Hornet all day long. Nothing (operational) comes close.

 

BTW, I think the F-15s kill record is 100 (104?) : 0 ;)

 

Once I read a story about a German Euro fighter pilot who was telling that at low speed the ef-2k could flip completely about 180° like a coin in a second without TVC (almost the same happened here with the Super Hornet).

 

In a turn-fight the 22 would definitely have to acknowledge his superiority against the su-35/37 with TVC.

 

Of course I realize too that in RL situations it will not come so far except when outnumbered (a turn fight) .

[D-Scythe]

I think the Su-30MKI would have a go at that. Not saying that it would be better but would give Raptor a run for it's money. In the close in slow speed BFM. Some of the things the MKI does, I don't think the Raptor can do. 2D v 3D vectoring?

 

Yeah, the Su-30MKI does have the advantage of 3D TVC, so it can probably pull off better yaw-ing maneuvers and such. On the other hand, the Raptor does have a ridiculous thrust-to-weight ratio, so it'll probably be able to more quickly move from one maneuver to the next, or simply accelerate out of a low speed engagement if given the chance.

 

I can't imagine an F-22 finding itself in a slow speed knife-fight in actual combat though. If it does, then either the pilot screwed up or an AWACs is being threatened or something and the guy has to fight a bunch of MiGs with his gun.

[Guest IguanaKing]

What's the point if the F-22? Russia has like 40 effecticve fighters, China like 300, but, if China or the US would attack eachother both countries will go broke and have civil wars. Can you please tell me where you think your enemies might come from, now or within the next 30 years? All I can think of are rich Arab guys with a thing for mountain animals and semtex, and those don't buy airforces to do their share of "ridding the world of infidels".

Seriousely, what's the point in the F-22? To hold BFMs with Hornets?

 

Probably for the same reason we also have enough nuclear devices to destroy the planet a few times over. We pray we never have to use it in anger, and so does anybody thinking of attacking us or our allies. ;)

[169th_Crusty]

I noticed something interesting:

The Hornet`s KIAS is little over 180... but the Vc (closure rate is 210!) - wow!

[Force_Feedback]

Probably for the same reason we also have enough nuclear devices to destroy the planet a few times over. We pray we never have to use it in anger, and so does anybody thinking of attacking us or our allies. ;)

 

Good, cause although I like Russian jets and stuff, I won't be happy when those things will be flying above my house, but then again, there is no threat, yes they're starting to have a communism regime part deux there, but it will take some time before they will have enough forces to do any harm, now China on the other hand.... What those bastards do to animals is unimaginable, especially to bears, stupid supersticious eggheads.

And even if China attacks the US, there will be no need for the f-22, as it won't have any runways left to land on. Oh hell, I know they built the f-22 for if the aliens come to dominate us.

[Frostie]

I noticed something interesting:

The Hornet`s KIAS is little over 180... but the Vc (closure rate is 210!) - wow!

Thats probably something todo with raptor coming towards hornet.

[169th_Crusty]

Thats probably something todo with raptor coming towards hornet.

 

I didn`t say it was wrong:) - just said wow!

 

They`re both at 15k and they`re both pulling toward each other; Hornet on the inside

[Guest IguanaKing]

Force,

 

If we come to blows with China, a 50+-year-old aircraft will do most of the fighting. China's fighters and bombers won't be much of a factor after that. ;)

[GGTharos]

For those of you who haven't noticed: This is a snapshot ... IIRC, that means low PK. Good on the suberbug pilot though, bad on the raptor pilot. Either way, it -is- a snapshot, and if that hornet missed due to geometry, he'sgoing to overshoot, and he's dead.

 

In other words, this would be a real-life desperate shot that -may- hit the Raptor ... and it may not ;)

 

As for a Raptor against an MKI, I just don't see it. I mean, sure, fine, the MKI can turn and burn witht he best of them, but it lacks the Raptor's AOA capability, and the enormous TWR. In other words: The advantage here goes to the Raptor, both pilots being equal. I won't claim a 'double advantage' - the MKI might still rate its nose faster, but notfaster -enough- .. on the other hand, TWR is what lets you prosecute the slow turning fight very agressively.

 

This pic only shows a Raptor pilot either losing SA, energy, or both. ;) That's it. Someone made a boo-boo in the air. This picture's proof of nothing other thanthe fact that aerialcombat is complicated.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Agreed...but the whole point of the Raptor is not to get that close in the first place. ;)

[TucksonSonny]

For those of you who haven't noticed: This is a snapshot ... IIRC, that means low PK. Good on the suberbug pilot though, bad on the raptor pilot. Either way, it -is- a snapshot, and if that hornet missed due to geometry, he'sgoing to overshoot, and he's dead.

 

In other words, this would be a real-life desperate shot that -may- hit the Raptor ... and it may not ;)

 

As for a Raptor against an MKI, I just don't see it. I mean, sure, fine, the MKI can turn and burn witht he best of them, but it lacks the Raptor's AOA capability, and the enormous TWR. In other words: The advantage here goes to the Raptor, both pilots being equal. I won't claim a 'double advantage' - the MKI might still rate its nose faster, but notfaster -enough- .. on the other hand, TWR is what lets you prosecute the slow turning fight very agressively.

 

This pic only shows a Raptor pilot either losing SA, energy, or both. ;) That's it. Someone made a boo-boo in the air. This picture's proof of nothing other thanthe fact that aerialcombat is complicated.

 

 

Black box on the top left is an event marker to show that the trigger was squeezed...

 

That raptor driver is so dead. C’mon man, you can’t argue that!

[Guest IguanaKing]

Yup...lose sight...lose the fight. That Raptor driver is as cooked as a Christmas goose. He screwed up...plain and simple.

[169th_Crusty]

Yup...lose sight...lose the fight. That Raptor driver is as cooked as a Christmas goose. He screwed up...plain and simple.

 

GGT is right - it is a snapshot. They`re both pulling into each other with

the Hornet on the inside. The piper is on the target and the trigger is squeezed, and... it would nice to see the video. How many miliseconds

the pipper covered the target. Yes, it does look like the Raptor collected

some rounds... maybe even through the canopy (the real kill:D ) but it

certainly was not a tracking shot... and, we don`t know if the Raptor`s

pilot lost the sight... whatever.

[Guest IguanaKing]

I only presented my broad-side to him for a few seconds...its not fair that he got me. LOL! :D Its pretty obvious that he lost sight of the Bug actually, since he should have NEVER let it get to that point. ;) If that Bug wasn't already dead at that point...well...oops. :D

[D-Scythe]

Yup...lose sight...lose the fight. That Raptor driver is as cooked as a Christmas goose. He screwed up...plain and simple.

 

And how do you know he screwed up? For all we know, he could just be cleaning off his third Hornet when this Hornet pilot made this gun shot. Hell, there could may still be 2 other Hornets out there for all we know.

 

Is there any proof that this was 1 vs. 1?

[Guest IguanaKing]

DOH!!! Because he is in the sights of his opponent at close range...that's how I know. ;) He has already thrown away his greatest advantage. These aircraft are not invincible, can we agree on that? It doesn't matter how many Bugs he bagged if he gets bagged himself. ;)

 

BTW...at what point did I say it was 1 V 1?

[D-Scythe]

DOH!!! Because he is in the sights of his opponent at close range...that's how I know. ;) He has already thrown away his greatest advantage. These aircraft are not invincible, can we agree on that? It doesn't matter how many Bugs he bagged if he gets bagged himself. ;)

 

BTW...at what point did I say it was 1 V 1?

 

I never said the F-22 was invincible. In fact, I specifically remember stating explicitly that it was not. Yet, the point that the pilot screwed up keeps coming up repeatedly. Is there any proof that he f#*ked up? In fact, from those photos, all I see is a relatively non-maneuvering F-22 being engaged outside of training ROE by a Super Hornet. Yes, in combat, there are no rules, I know the score, but do you really want to explain to the U.S. government how you lost a $350 million airplane in a training hop against an aircraft you and your squad-mates have defeated many times before? No, didn't think so.

 

I see zero indication of any screw up. Yeah, perhaps the Raptor pilot lost SA, but it is a new airplane, the controls and stuff are new and unfamiliar, and it could've been a massive 8 vs. 2 furball for all we know.

 

And in a furball, it's easy to lose SA, especially when you're flying an unfamiliar jet, no matter how powerful it may be. So again, I fail to see where it's the pilot's fault. It could just as easily be the F-22's fault, actually, or maybe the scenario had 3 Super Hornet's parked on the Raptor's six right from the get go. Besides, the F-22 pilots are still new. I'm actually surprised that their F-15 and F/A-18 adversaries haven't been faring better against them.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Wow...I guess I pushed a few of your buttons...sorry dude. :D Yikes!

 

He screwed up because he was where he was, I'm afraid I can't say it any plainer than that. ;)

[TucksonSonny]

It is interesting that a fighter pilot made the conclusion from the HUD picture that the Hornet is down to 180 knots after only 180 degrees of turn and could have kept the turn going a bit more (His max G is 7.6 and he's at 18.5 AOA).

This was not a lucky shot! The hornet pilot was not gunning all over the sky and taking a lucky shot!

An overshoot wouldn't matter in this case because the raptor would be a fireball.

 

 

 

PS. Check the comments made by real fighter pilots (a flaming war is going on there: Navy vs air-force :icon_supe )

[MBot]

Regarding snapshot:

 

 

 

 

Note that while keeping the pipper on target the F/A-18:

-lost 90ft of altitude

-gained 4 knots of airspeed

-eased the AoA by 0.8°

-no more that 1 second passed

 

Don't want to draw a conclusion myselfe, just tought it is worth noting.

[D-Scythe]

Wow...I guess I pushed a few of your buttons...sorry dude. :D Yikes!

 

He screwed up because he was where he was, I'm afraid I can't say it any plainer than that. ;)

 

My point is simply that this was bound to happen, and I don't get why people are making such a big deal about it, saying things like "Yeah, this is proof how LETHAL the Hornet is at low speeds - see? it can shoot down the F-22," or "a $350 million dollar plane is only as good as its pilot" and generally just blowing things out of proportion.

 

Neither the Raptor or its pilot is perfect, so by saying the pilot screwed up by being where he is absolutely ridiculous. These Raptor guys were *put* there, you know, in slow speed gun fight, with the Hornets, and probably outnumbered too. Any sane Raptor pilot wouldn't risk a low speed knife fight in most circumstances anyway, so this is just practice. *Nobody* screwed up the fight set up, because the Raptor pilot is just doing this *intentionally* for practice.

 

Secondly, you say the F-22 is invincible, but then you say, and I quote:

 

It doesn't matter how many Bugs he bagged if he gets bagged himself.

.

 

If you say it doesn't matter how many kills a Raptor gets if he is NOT supposed to be killed, then how are you saying that the Raptor is not invincible? By its very definition being invincible means not able to be killed. This is training. Guys play "dead" because nobody's perfect. Doesn't mean that all the stuff the pilot has learned, all the guys he called out dead, doesn't matter.

 

Man, I hate to see everyone's reactions when one of these birds suffer an FBW failure or something and the pilot was forced to eject over a combat zone (which is extremely likely to happen). Then it would be like, "OMG, we lost a Raptor in Iraq! Crap, I thought we had air superiority! This is proof that stealthy, advanced aircraft are crap and we should all just revert to guerilla tactics!"

 

Nobody made a big deal over a "dead" F-15A back in the 70s in mock engagements with F-5s and other simulated OPFOR jets. Wonder what all the fuss is about now.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Sheesh...I really did put a bur under your saddle, didn't I? LOL. Who said I was making a big deal out of anything? He screwed up and got killed. That's how he learns...without actually having to die. One other incident you may be referring to is the downing of the F-117. Know why it happened? Because the aircraft was not employed properly.

 

BTW...I'm pretty sure this is from IOT&E, its not quite the typical joint exercise like Cope India. I agree with you, these exercises don't prove a thing, but if anybody comes away from it thinking his s**t don't stink...well...he's ACTUALLY gonna die in combat.

 

I'm a staunch supporter of the F-22A, have been for a long time...its an isolated incident, but it happened. Did you somehow get the impression that I was saying its capabilities were completely negated? Never said that.

 

Peace, dude. Its the internet, its a difficult medium of communication. :D

[GGTharos]

This pic shows me that the superbug dropped the nose about 5dec inunder a second trying to keep the pipper on target - may or may not be significant, but he's spraying. The 'hit marker' indicates that the roudns may land somewhere ont eh tail-end of the wing, possibly clip the spoilers and one engine.

 

This -does- have good potential to be a hit, but not a deadly one for a variety of reasons. Then again, who knows ;) Why the Raptor is sitting int front of the hornet's nose is beyond me ... he should be above the hornet or at least out-of-plane ;)

[Pilotasso]

This pic shows me that the superbug dropped the nose about 5dec inunder a second trying to keep the pipper on target - may or may not be significant, but he's spraying. The 'hit marker' indicates that the roudns may land somewhere ont eh tail-end of the wing, possibly clip the spoilers and one engine.

 

This -does- have good potential to be a hit, but not a deadly one for a variety of reasons. Then again, who knows ;) Why the Raptor is sitting int front of the hornet's nose is beyond me ... he should be above the hornet or at least out-of-plane ;)

 

If so, the raptor would potentialy have sustained cripling damage and be an easier target for the next round. hes toast IMHO.

[D-Scythe]

Sheesh...I really did put a bur under your saddle, didn't I? LOL. Who said I was making a big deal out of anything? He screwed up and got killed. That's how he learns...without actually having to die. One other incident you may be referring to is the downing of the F-117. Know why it happened? Because the aircraft was not employed properly.

 

BTW...I'm pretty sure this is from IOT&E, its not quite the typical joint exercise like Cope India. I agree with you, these exercises don't prove a thing, but if anybody comes away from it thinking his s**t don't stink...well...he's ACTUALLY gonna die in combat.

 

I'm a staunch supporter of the F-22A, have been for a long time...its an isolated incident, but it happened. Did you somehow get the impression that I was saying its capabilities were completely negated? Never said that.

 

Peace, dude. Its the internet, its a difficult medium of communication. :D

 

Just frustrated, is all. Some Hornet guy gets the pleasure of killing an F-22 in a mock gunfight, and all of a sudden Super Hornets are these super deadly slow speed dancers that people shouldn't mess with. Or even worse, people saying that the Raptor is not up to spec, the pilot sucks, etc. This is like the 4th thread in a week about this incident, and everytime I hear the same thing.

 

At first, it was amusing to see people judge the Raptor and Hornet based on these two pics, but then it got repetitive. Like honestly, nobody knows the *real* capabilities of the Raptor, and now these two photos are being used as proof for these ridiculous notions and ideas all because of ONE Raptor under the piper and inside the ROE bubble of a Super Hornet.

 

If so, the raptor would potentialy have sustained cripling damage and be an easier target for the next round. hes toast IMHO.

 

A Raptor wouldn't BE in this situation in real life. Cause that Hornet would be dead 30 miles before the merge.