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Posted

I think IRL average small plane spoting distance is about 4-6 km. Above it could be hard to see.

 

IRL there could be some problem with spot a plane expecially on the ground background but when you spot him it is then quite easy to track these plane at long distances. Planes are just much bigger then in our games. So game need to simulate contacts from longer distance casue in sim planes are very small.

 

Im RL pilot and im sure that in DCS planes spoting is way off expecially at distances above 2 km.

 

I think actually BOS got the best spoting distance - plane ( not dot) could be visibile from 4-6 km. Still even in these game planes could be dissaperd at short distances at sky background but even these it is still much better then in DCS.

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Posted
yeah, i agree with Crump here as well...in the previous sims ive played, it was for the most time just too easy.there was a big black dot visible from exactly x nautical miles, no matter the condition(they all had their shortcomings as well...losing contacts because of broken LODs within a few hundred meters)

 

in real life it can be very hard to spot other aircraft.and i remember when i had my first flying hours, that i was quite surprised at what close distances aircraft may "appear"...too close to feel confortable thats for sure.and also as he points out, it takes a trained eye to become better in real life.proper scanning is necessary.

 

still i think spotting is one of the few big issues, which can either destroy a sim, or make it shine above all others.dcs 2.0 would be a good oportunity to make dcs shine even more than it already does.

 

Absolutely! It sets the tactical environment and opens up possibilities that do not exist in the "big fat dot on the horizon and I can see everything world".

 

If spotting is easy then tactical options become artificially limited. Gone is the ability to bounce or disengage unless you can just outrun your opponent.

 

I love the "empty sky syndrome" we have in DCS right now. Several times I have found myself in big furballs one second shooting a Bf-109K off a team mates tail. Then after evading a Dora on my six, completely alone in a big empty sky. Tail radar is a great thing, btw!!

 

Climb back up and reengage...

 

I don't think some of these people are playing online that much. I always find targets. I just read the objectives and follow them. There is almost always a target at the objective area....you just have to scan accordingly!!

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

Posted
Yeah but what was the lens of the camera used for taking that photo ? 30mm ? ;)

 

That is what I was thinking. Those airplanes photos are not representative of what the human eye sees in the air.

 

a13p0127-figure-02.png

 

10686871_10204193883542662_5211790882149110729_n.jpg

 

10450807_10204193844181678_2949337889303292812_n.jpg

 

10505620_10204193952424384_3121297181412385626_n.jpg

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

Posted

Ewww...

 

The resolution of that chart is off. Here is the original report so you can see that relative aircraft sizes as they should be.

 

The chart is from the Human Factors in Aviation textbook.

 

The report is on a mid collision between a Cessna 152 and a motor glider. Unfortunately, it was fatal for all involved.

canda mid air.pdf

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

Posted
^^of course its also a matter of monitor size and even more importantly, graphic settings...when you say you have everything maxed out, i guess you also run MSAA?maybe even 16Q....MSAA makes a huge difference in spotting aircraft.(its worse)

 

Could you elaborate on that please? I have real trouble spotting planes even at ranges well below 1 nm, simply because they blend too well with either the sky or the ground and sometimes just dissapear even when I have eyballs on them. It's really frustrating and any fix (or improvement) would be much appreciated.

 

I run the game at 1080p, with all settings up, would dropping anti-aliasing or even turning it off improve my chances of seeing things??

 

Any help would be much appreciated, I have almost completely stopped flying the Mustang, and have held off on purchasing my favorite WWII bird (the 109) because of this issue. :(

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Posted (edited)
Posted
Could you elaborate on that please? I have real trouble spotting planes even at ranges well below 1 nm, simply because they blend too well with either the sky or the ground and sometimes just dissapear even when I have eyballs on them. It's really frustrating and any fix (or improvement) would be much appreciated.

 

I run the game at 1080p, with all settings up, would dropping anti-aliasing or even turning it off improve my chances of seeing things??

 

Any help would be much appreciated, I have almost completely stopped flying the Mustang, and have held off on purchasing my favorite WWII bird (the 109) because of this issue. :(

 

 

well, let me say this...i wouldnt tell anyone i like, to enable MSAA or any kind of anti aliasing in dcs if he wants to see other aircraft at reasonable distances...so yes, turn that thing OFF.of course, it doesnt look as good anymore, but you should definitely notice a difference in spotting other aircraft.(also make sure your graphics card driver does not force it on)

Posted
well, let me say this...i wouldnt tell anyone i like, to enable MSAA or any kind of anti aliasing in dcs if he wants to see other aircraft at reasonable distances...so yes, turn that thing OFF.of course, it doesnt look as good anymore, but you should definitely notice a difference in spotting other aircraft.(also make sure your graphics card driver does not force it on)

 

Thank you, thank you so much!!

 

Will be testing this extensively today after work. :thumbup:

 

Jaggy edges don't bother me so much, when the gameplay is there!

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

Posted
i think its not sooo much the network code(yes it should be improved as well)

You are welcome to your opinion, but in my opinion the two main problems with DCS becoming a close up guns only combat simulator is the 1) spoting of bogies, 2) smooth network code. In that those two things are required, a sort of foundation requirement. Without that foundation, it wont mater if it does some things better or worse.

 

but the main issue with our ww2 aircraft are the tracers.especially the p51 tracers.strangely enough, other tracers dont cause that much trouble.

I see that as icing on the cake, without the cake (read foundation) it wont mater how good the icing is if the cake inside does not taste good.

 

wags stated i think approximately a year ago, that the tracer issue will be fixed with edge.the problem i see is, that the issue was there since the release of the p51, and edge is still not here and we still dont know when edge will go live. if the issue is not fixed with edge, then this will be a big disappointment.but wags promised it, so i have confidence.

Agreed, there is allot riding on the new EDGE graphics

 

i totally agree with the last sentence.

Agreed agreed, fix those two things I mention and DCS will be in a position to dominate the hard core combat flight (gun kill) sims for years to come. In that they already have the modern hard core combat (BVR kill) sim cornered IMHO.

Posted

The visibility issue has come up again and again. I think that ED should be well aware of it, and are probably doing their best to fix it behind the scenes.

 

Regarding real-world data on spotting threshold , have a look at these charts :attachment.php?attachmentid=93598&d=1390914959

 

 

Specifically for the DC-3 this one :

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=93601&d=1390917039

 

 

The link to the relevant thread with sources: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1981393#post1981393

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Posted
P-51 visiblilty from 2.1 km ( with label and without)

 

And that, imho, shows why it's so difficult to get right. The "Black dot" solution isn't much of a solution because it blends in way too well with detail noise in the background. Black dot plane is the same black dot as Black dot bush. IRL, you would have other cues that would give away the material of the object like reflection from cockpitglass (what CloD TF tries to simulate with the occasional reflection flashes) and better contrast against the ground when the plane moves that give away it's presence.

Posted

The main problem is that planes from distance in DCS ( or other sims also) are way to small thats why there are much harder to see then IRL.

 

But still some sims make it better and more realistic way ( e.x. BOS or ROF)

Posted

That is not the problem. When you are close enough to acquire a plane, spot it against terrain it will be at a LOD that is more than a "black dot".

Against the sky backdrop, a dot, black or dark gray is quite OK at 5 km out...

If we had the smartscaling it would at least improve initial spotting.

Shagrat

 

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Posted

Have been experimenting with labels that are just a black dot. It's a compromise really. Too easy to spot against the sky by about right against ground clutter. You still lose sight of them if you arent paying attention.

 

I only have them showing within 10km at the moment but may reduce that down to 7. I may also try lightening the colour but my last attempt at this lead to the dot being VERY visible through the cockpit.

 

 

 

Another interesting thing is if you force ambient occlusion via Nvidia Inspector you get the occasional bright flash from in game objects. When a plane does this you it really pops out at you. What I've seen of the DCS 2.0 previews is that lighting id far more advanced so hopefully you will see more light reflected off other aircraft and so be able to spot them more easily.

Posted

I find that other planes do not ever disappear for me, I also say that I have to pay attention and stay focused...also I run a 120 monitor at 1920x1080, that may be a factor

Posted

I don't dogfight so I don't care about this issue specifically. However I REALLY do not like seeing POOR technical arguments on this forum.

 

I made this point in another thread ... but only in passing.

 

Consider the arc minutes your monitor/display takes up in your view and if it is larger than the arc minutes being covered virtually you are effectively zoomed in even if zoom is not activated in the game. The higher the resolution you have the greater the benefit of the zoom depending on the size of the objects you want to see.

 

A person playing with a standard 24" 1080P display and a person playing with a 50" 4K display are not playing the same game at all. The difference is night and day.

 

If I truly wanted to win the argument I'd make an app that asks you to enter your screen size and resolution and then scale a sample image to show an arc minute normalised view of the sample image. The app would show 'on your monitor' what other guys see on theirs and you would be able to cycle through various configurations to see what advantage/disadvantage you might have compared to others.

 

Guys on resolutions lower than 4K screens will have to imagine the benefits of having 4x better eyeballs (imagine that) BUT they should at least be able to perceive the benefits of a bigger screen.

 

This has nothing to do with what you can see IRL. This is about what one guy sees on his monitor compared to what another guy sees on his. It is that simple.

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Posted
I don't dogfight so I don't care about this issue specifically. However I REALLY do not like seeing POOR technical arguments on this forum.

 

I made this point in another thread ... but only in passing.

 

Consider the arc minutes your monitor/display takes up in your view and if it is larger than the arc minutes being covered virtually you are effectively zoomed in even if zoom is not activated in the game. The higher the resolution you have the greater the benefit of the zoom depending on the size of the objects you want to see.

 

A person playing with a standard 24" 1080P display and a person playing with a 50" 4K display are not playing the same game at all. The difference is night and day.

 

If I truly wanted to win the argument I'd make an app that asks you to enter your screen size and resolution and then scale a sample image to show an arc minute normalised view of the sample image. The app would show 'on your monitor' what other guys see on theirs and you would be able to cycle through various configurations to see what advantage/disadvantage you might have compared to others.

 

Guys on resolutions lower than 4K screens will have to imagine the benefits of having 4x better eyeballs (imagine that) BUT they should at least be able to perceive the benefits of a bigger screen.

 

This has nothing to do with what you can see IRL. This is about what one guy sees on his monitor compared to what another guy sees on his. It is that simple.

 

I think you scolded me about this one time. :music_whistling:

 

I tried to relate that in the beginning of the discussion and thank you for posting this!

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

Posted
well, let me say this...i wouldnt tell anyone i like, to enable MSAA or any kind of anti aliasing in dcs if he wants to see other aircraft at reasonable distances...so yes, turn that thing OFF.of course, it doesnt look as good anymore, but you should definitely notice a difference in spotting other aircraft.(also make sure your graphics card driver does not force it on)

 

 

Thank you, thank you so much!!

 

Will be testing this extensively today after work. :thumbup:

 

Jaggy edges don't bother me so much, when the gameplay is there!

 

Just wanted to report back, the difference between even 2x AntiAliasing and NO antialiasing is SIGNIFICANT. In the Mustang vs AI Dora quick mission I have tested, I hardly ever lose sight of the AI plane anymore and even when I do I can quickly aquire him again. This is a great tip, thank you again. (Now if only my engine wouldnt be seizing up all the time)

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

Posted
Just wanted to report back, the difference between even 2x AntiAliasing and NO antialiasing is SIGNIFICANT. In the Mustang vs AI Dora quick mission I have tested, I hardly ever lose sight of the AI plane anymore and even when I do I can quickly aquire him again. This is a great tip, thank you again. (Now if only my engine wouldnt be seizing up all the time)

 

Keep an eye on oil and coolant temp in vertical maneuvers. You should be fine if you'll know when u have to lower the MP to prevent engine damage.

 

I have my AA off and it didn't help too much. Plane can still vanish in front of me if i dont zoom a lot

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Posted

It's not perfect but it's better than nothing. As for the oil temps being high, isn't that a bug?? I dont think Ive had problems with the P51 (with correct MP management) before but I havent flown the Mustang (due to the visibility issues) for at least the last two or three patch revisions. Hmmm, maybe i should download the latest .15 patch...

Current specs: Windows 10 Home 64bit, i5-9600K @ 3.7 Ghz, 32GB DDR4 RAM, 1TB Samsung EVO 860 M.2 SSD, GAINWARD RTX2060 6GB, Oculus Rift S, MS FFB2 Sidewinder + Warthog Throttle Quadrant, Saitek Pro rudder pedals.

Posted
It's not perfect but it's better than nothing. As for the oil temps being high, isn't that a bug?? I dont think Ive had problems with the P51 (with correct MP management) before but I havent flown the Mustang (due to the visibility issues) for at least the last two or three patch revisions. Hmmm, maybe i should download the latest .15 patch...

 

Lol definitely it was a very good patch.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

Posted
Great Report AirDoc!!

 

It looks like you have found a good measured reference.

 

That link is garbled. It took a while for me to find the correct thread, so I though I'd share the correct link: Research and Real-World data on aircraft visibility

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Posted
That link is garbled.

 

Worked fine for me but if others have an issue..we got two links.

Answers to most important questions ATC can ask that every pilot should memorize:

 

1. No, I do not have a pen. 2. Indicating 250

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